Base Level of Skill for BB/CA/CL/CV

[Naughtius_Maximus]

 

Every single torp situation in the worst possible situation for torpedoes. This is one of the key reasons why there is a mismatch between stats, and perception about torpedoes. DDs statistically (hence objectively) need buffs, and people who complain are just the people I watched die after me.

 

I consider this the base level of skill for BB players, my mediocre self. Literally all I did was change course between reloads.

 

Let's go over everything I did wrong.

 

I sailed off alone in a BB to demonstrate how easy it is.

 

Let's go over the multiple torp situations I had to face. I faced off against roughly four consistent threats and a carrier. a Pheonix, a Wyoming, a Minekaze, and a Wickes.

 

But first off, Carriers: Torpedo Bombers.

 

1/2 speed, 1/2 turn, then full blast once the TBs look like they've committed. The first set of TBs flew right past me to nail that bot of a Kongo exactly because the Kongo was a much easier target. The second one I dodged the entire set. I had zero problems with torpedo bombers when I was alive. Fair? Considering carriers are a counter to BBs, probably not. Was I playing competently? No way, I just sailed off alone in a BB.

 

Secondly, Minekaze: Stealth Torps. Also the most balanced DD in the game currently.

 

Minekaze has a minimum of ~5.4km of concealment, although most would have ~5.7 (camo) or base 5.9. At that distance and with torp speed factored in, it would take torpedoes some 30 seconds to reach me. If I change velocity whatsoever within that time, the torps at the indicator completely miss. Oh hey look, Wyoming (and all other BBs) have around that reload rate. Wonder why I don't just make a turn after every reload? Oh man, It's not like I shouldn't already do this to dodge the shells flying my way. How could I possibly be so braindead as to get hit at the indicator?

 

Want to know what happens with just turning between reloads? I stalled a Minekaze for almost ten minutes.. That player isn't even bad at DDs either (though he dies to a two spread torp bomber for some reason,) but he couldn't hit me. He then proceeds to get at least one hit per salvo on every other BB afterwards for a stellar game.

 

These are 8-9 second reaction torps, and notice I really did not need the notifications whatsoever, most completely whiffed me, or did so enough that I could dodge the rest.

 

I only got hit in the end because I was overly concerned about the carrier and traveled exceedingly predictably. Also because 1/2 speed on a Wyoming may as well be zero km/h. Had there not been a TB squad to make me predictable it would have been quite easy to stall that Minekaze for the entire game if he kept firing at the indicator. Also no, many do not fire too far outside the indicator, something that's actually a mistake. Anyways that's the price I paid for sailing off alone to become a prime target.

 

Wickes: Suicide charge

 

As soon as I saw him, stern facing him, still making unpredictable turns that dodges Minekaze torps. Wrecked him easily. He did nothing whatsoever, while I had time to switch ammo types at leisure in something that moves almost 15km/h slower. BB players sometimes make the mistake of going bow first, which is a hilariously bad idea.

 

Nothing more to say about this. Stern facing him, win.

 

Wyoming and Phoenix: bla bla bla guns

 

Hard to angle versus four threats at once, but then again that's why I'm only a mediocre player.

 

Now that all four situations have been reviewed, let's go over this. This is a stupid situation on my part. I sailed off alone in a BB. Did I deserve to make a big impact alone? No. Did I deserve to have a big impact in a game? No. Did I deserve to dodge all but 1-3 of the torps if I sailed in a straight line? Nope. I did not deserve to be effective in that situation, and guess what? I still walk off with one kill off something I'm supposed to be disadvantaged against, easily.

 

In the meantime I handle pretty much all torpedo situations with one of the slowest and least agile ships in the game. Wyoming is large and goes at a snail pace of 20km/h or so. Last for just shy of 10 minutes, and only because I became predictable when I placed too much priority on dodging the TBs. Do all this in the short torp reload tiers on top of it. Does it look hard? Does it? Because it certainly didn't to me. I got my shots off on reload. In fact most of my turns were primarily to get my guns on target, not to consciously dodge torps as if they were a huge threat.

 

This is the primary reasons why DDs are underpowered statistically. This is the absolute most unfavorable position for a BB to be in, short of hugging islands or beaching yourself. This is during the stealthiest era of DDs, during the fastest reload of DDs, during the least detectable of the torps, during the era of no scout planes, and of exceedingly slow BBs with no steering mods. 9 minutes. Last 9 minutes against that alone versus multiple hard counters.
 

All I did? Hold A or D between reloads.

 

This is without smoke, without 12 second torpedo reaction times, without exceedingly long reloads that lessen the pressure, and without horrendously bad gun arcs on USN DDs. I am also not a cruiser, whom IJN DDs don't even have an answer for whatsoever. Now, just think about the people who complain about DDs and watch every single teammate in the video after I died. That's how bad DD complainers are.

 

Unbelievable, right?

 

Obligatory gif for DD complainers

 

[DemonsofRazgriz]

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

epic game

laughed when the torps dissapeared before they could hit you

laughed when the DD blew up. it looked like all the fire from it blew out the front of the ship xD

 

and when torps did hit you. you angled the torp belt so it didn't flood

nice gameplay =D

+1 for dodging so many

 

[Elysion]

Those CV torps werent manual drops though, its not hard to dodge auto drops.. well actually properly done auto drops can be a slightly problem sometimes but anyone whos using auto drop doesnt really know what they are doing anyway so its usualy a non issue.

 

Yeah, just randomly nudging your rudder and engine setting is enough to make destroyers 90% useless in this game.

 

The only time in the past week a destroyer has given me any issue.. was a gearing.. and it wasnt his torpedoes that were hurting me, it was his HE spam.

 

The initial torpedo bomber thing though, his bombers were in perfect position to manual drop on you as they were 'passing you' to go attack someone else, you couldnt have prevented it then since you were committed to a turn and pretty much side-on to him. he just went after the higher tier ship, which was the smart thing at the time.

[Naughtius_Maximus]

Those CV torps werent manual drops though, its not hard to dodge auto drops.. well actually properly done auto drops can be a slightly problem sometimes but anyone whos using auto drop doesnt really know what they are doing anyway so its usualy a non issue.

 

Yeah, just randomly nudging your rudder and engine setting is enough to make destroyers 90% useless in this game.

 

The only time in the past week a destroyer has given me any issue.. was a gearing.. and it wasnt his torpedoes that were hurting me, it was his HE spam.

 

The initial torpedo bomber thing though, his bombers were in perfect position to manual drop on you as they were 'passing you' to go attack someone else, you couldnt have prevented it then since you were committed to a turn and pretty much side-on to him. he just went after the higher tier ship, which was the smart thing at the time.

 

Understood. Thanks for the insight. As you can see, not a very good BB player, really. I dislike being constantly engaged in general. I fire at you, you fire at me, on and on for 5+ minutes. Often don't do the peek-boom stuff in WoT for the same reason and suffer in peek-boom specialists like E-75.

[BnaditCorps]

+1 to you sir

[Elysion]

 

Understood. Thanks for the insight. As you can see, not a very good BB player, really. I dislike being constantly engaged in general. I fire at you, you fire at me, on and on for 5+ minutes. Often don't do the peek-boom stuff in WoT for the same reason and suffer in peek-boom specialists like E-75.

 

Dont let your kawachi bum you out, its only able to contribute on big race. Knowing to turn and vary speed makes you better than the majority of BB players by default right now ~_^

[LordCommanderMatthew]

those were not manual drops i can dodge auto drops easy  but manual is like hell on earth

[Wo_9]

 

Dont let your kawachi bum you out, its only able to contribute on big race. Knowing to turn and vary speed makes you better than the majority of BB players by default right now ~_^

           humph. i am a silly baka lol

[Naughtius_Maximus]

The CV part is probably inaccurate, but I don't expect to dodge everything from a CV. Nor should I. One or two torps per TB run is very good as is.

 

Regardless, this thread should be quoted whenever someone complains about the current DD situation, or opposes buffs.

 

Or anyone who thinks the Minekaze is OP when it is the bastion of DD balance.

[Blondie_the_Good]

The CV part is probably inaccurate, but I don't expect to dodge everything from a CV. Nor should I. One or two torps per TB run is very good as is.

 

Regardless, this thread should be quoted whenever someone complains about the current DD situation, or opposes buffs.

 

Or anyone who thinks the Minekaze is OP when it is the bastion of DD balance.

 

I will definitely use this thread as a rebuttal to DD/torpedo OP comments. Thank you for posting this.

 

Hopefully in the near future, the USN destroyers will get some love from Wargaming.

[CaliburxZero]

 

I will definitely use this thread as a rebuttal to DD/torpedo OP comments. Thank you for posting this.

 

Hopefully in the near future, the USN destroyers will get some love from Wargaming.

 

As much as BBs are frustrating with its RNG... USN DDs are the pits.  Honestly... They need some serious buffs, or honestly an entire re-doing and different approach to their playstyle because right now, they're just not good.  Like I said in the other thread, I'd start with some durability and smoke buffs, and see where it goes from there.  Easier to survive should equate to more time alive, which SHOULD mean more damage done.  But i'm no DD expert, they may need something else.  I'm too tired to think more on this, i'm heading to sleep 

[Skpstr]

Problem is, however mediocre you consider yourself, at this point, you are better than that.

 

The way I see it, there are 3 types of BB players. There's your drive in a straight line types, there's players like you that do all those maneuvers instinctively, and then there's players like me, who try not to drive in straight lines, try to angle armor, and try to alter speed to dodge torps, but it's not instinctive yet and gets forgotten in the heat of battle. Once we all get to your level, THEN you can be mediocre

 

The players like me don't complain about torps, and the dedicated straight line drivers will mostly never change, so to them, torps will ALWAYS be OP.

[CasualCat2001]

WG has heard your concerns and is buffing close in BB dispersion so that BB counter will die even sooner next time because apparently F those guys (DDs).  

 

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

I think most DD complaining is done by people that have only played 1 or 2 tiers of BBs, at low tiers there its lots of torp spam because the reload is 30 seconds or less. After tier 5 the torp reload becomes much longer and destroyers become much less of a threat, especially since they nerfed smoke and us dd guns. The statistics that I have seen says that low tier dds are capable of much more damage then mid or high tier dds plus people that dont know what they are doing at low tiers and you end up with dds op threads.

[Blondie_the_Good]

 

As much as BBs are frustrating with its RNG... USN DDs are the pits.  Honestly... They need some serious buffs, or honestly an entire re-doing and different approach to their playstyle because right now, they're just not good.  Like I said in the other thread, I'd start with some durability and smoke buffs, and see where it goes from there.  Easier to survive should equate to more time alive, which SHOULD mean more damage done.  But i'm no DD expert, they may need something else.  I'm too tired to think more on this, i'm heading to sleep 

 

I played the USN destroyers all the way through to the Gearing during CBT. I still have fun in them and don't think they need a total rework, but they do need some help to allow them to deliver torpedoes on target, in my opinion. 

 

The smoke nerf was a massive blow to the USN destroyer's ability to launch torpedoes without resorting to suicidal/"all in" tactics. I feel that a small buff to concealment (7.6 to 7.2 km for example) combined with smoke dispersion time being increased to 40 seconds would make a lot of difference (it was 60 seconds pre-4.0 patch). I can deal with the increased cooldown and reduced charges, but the smoke screen size is pathetic. A slight (.5 km) torpedo range buff would be nice for the Mk 15 mod 3 torpedoes that the Farragut and Mahan have. The 4.5 km torpedoes are a bit too short ranged; often forcing the USN DD player deep inside secondary gun range and also too far below the detection range of these destroyers. The damage on the Nicholas (Mk 15 mod 0), Mahan (Mk 12 upgrade), and Benson (Mk 14 mod 3) torpedoes could use a damage buff. In addition, the Sims should be buffed by receiving the Mk 12 torpedoes used as an "upgrade" on the Mahan  instead of the same torpedoes as the tier 5 Nicholas.

 

I could also see the 5"/38's AA dps receiving a slight buff on late hull module upgrades. The VT proximity fuse that was introduced in January 1943 increased the effective of these dual-purpose batteries and therefore makes sense. The 5"/38 guns could also benefit from a flatter trajectory.

 

I also proposed a new tier 7 destroyer in another thread: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/40796-proposal-for-a-different-tier-7-usn-destroyer  

 

In short, there are quite a few tweaks that can be done to help USN destroyers without radically altering the characteristics and playstyle that players, such as myself, have grown fond of.

 

 

[teamoldmill]

Unicorn in a DD is much more capable of winning games than a similar skill player in a BB. Just won't seem it from raw damage numbers.

 

If you balance on damage.... bad things happen. Same thing happened in tanks, even tanks almost last in win rate get nerfed if they do a little more damage because somehow damage is the only thing that matters, not capping, not spotting, not tanking, not speed, nothing... just damage.

 

That being said, it is a higher skill floor for sure. Ceiling is just higher in return. Few DDs need a little work, I agree, like many ships do. But they can do things to win games no other ships can do.

[1nv4d3rZ1m]

Unicorn in a DD is much more capable of winning games than a similar skill player in a BB. Just won't seem it from raw damage numbers.

 

If you balance on damage.... bad things happen. Same thing happened in tanks, even tanks almost last in win rate get nerfed if they do a little more damage because somehow damage is the only thing that matters, not capping, not spotting, not tanking, not speed, nothing... just damage.

 

That being said, it is a higher skill floor for sure. Ceiling is just higher in return. Few DDs need a little work, I agree, like many ships do. But they can do things to win games no other ships can do.

 

The thing to remember is at high tier BBs are significantly better then lower tier ones, an Iowa for example is a bb that is fast enough and powerful enough to have a significant effect on the game. It is no longer hobbled by the 21 knot speed of most of the line, where as DDs really dont gain armor, speed, or firepower as they tier up. At low tiers dds are definitely powerful and can have significant influence but after tier 5 they really lose their ability to influence games.

[BlazerSparta]

Now go duplicate that in an IJN BB with a longer hitbox and wider turning arc. Destroyer torps, sure, still applies. TBs dropping 100m off your side? Not so much.

[Naughtius_Maximus]

IJN BBs at those tiers (Myogi and Kongo in particular) are actually harder to hit with stealth torps because the top speed means they can be in potentially more places in that 30 second time frame.

 

Anyhow the video was primarily to showcase how easy and non gameplay altering ship based torps are to dodge. Basically only turned to deal with visible threats and get guns on target, and somehow dodge every spread for 9 minutes.

[StrikeTalon]

Problem is, however mediocre you consider yourself, at this point, you are better than that.

 

The way I see it, there are 3 types of BB players. There's your drive in a straight line types, there's players like you that do all those maneuvers instinctively, and then there's players like me, who try not to drive in straight lines, try to angle armor, and try to alter speed to dodge torps, but it's not instinctive yet and gets forgotten in the heat of battle. Once we all get to your level, THEN you can be mediocre

 

The players like me don't complain about torps, and the dedicated straight line drivers will mostly never change, so to them, torps will ALWAYS be OP.

 

So very true.

 

As a CV driver. I look for the easiest target.  If its taking me too long to set up a shot on you, because your are  turning and weaving like a chicken on fire.  I dont want to waste that time on you if there is someone close by sailing in a nice straight line.  More so than not, there are always a few of those around.  Even if its because they have tunnel vision from being in max zoom targeting another ship.  Ive done it myself,  I know torp bombers are inbound, but Im waiting to reload and get that last volley off.

 

Sometimes the next sound I hear is the inbound torpedo warning klaxon and boom. Nobodys fault but my own.

 

Yes I love the new Tirpitz T4 drivers.