The Ships of China

[Skygunner]

Given the precident of WoT, it is only logical that at one point or another we will look off over the horizon and ask  "what about china?"

Well,  I hope to settle any fears you may have about Type-59 like invasion.  

Abridged History

Warships are expensive.   Even small ones cost quite a lot to operate and are a drain on a nations treasury, especially if a nation doesn't need said warships.   China has numerous large rivers running though it, couple this with a long history of internal conflict (dynastic cycles!) with a non-naval based empire and you have a very poor set up for strong naval forces on a global scale.  To top all this off China lost nearly all its large ports to foreign nations carving it up like the worlds collective watermelon in the 1890s.

This set the stage for a very poorly funded,  poorly maintained, and overall small navy.   That's not to say it was a bad one.   As they lacked the expertise and know-how to build their own large warships,  they were typically bought from people who knew what they were doing.  As such, the designs met Chinese specifications in the best way possible.  

That being said a few disclaimers.  

1 - Sorry if I romanize the names in a weird way,  feel free to correct me, I'm using antiquated methods.

2 - Modern = 1940's

3 - This isn't all of them,  just ones of interest, or potential to appear in game.

"Battleships"  __________________________________________________________________________________

Though they have had ambitions to owning a large battleship the Chinese has only ever acquired two. (You can find out more information on one of these project battleships here,  in the prototypes forum) Ting Yuen and Chen Yuan  were the first capital ships produced by AG Vulcan,  a German shipbuilding firm. The class was rather archaic in appearance equipped with en-echelon turrets in a central battery and being fully rigged.  There was also a massive flying bridge over the en echelon main armament that would prove an embarrassment when the Ting Tuen knocked out its captain whom was standing on the flying bridge when the ship fired.  This style was not unique to the chinese ships and generally phased out of all nations that employed them by the 1890's.

In addition to their own armament, both ships also carried two torpedo boats and derricks to handle them,  acting as a mother ship for the smaller craft.  Despite their set backs, the ships were considerably powerful. well armoured for their age and posed a considerable threat during the Sino Japanese war.  Had they been delivered before the Sino-French war, the French would have had a much more difficult time.  Regardless, during the Sino-Japanese war, various conditions led to the Ting Yuen being sunk, and the Chen Yuan being captured. It would be modernized (1890's) and serve with the fledgling IJN 1912.  

These ships are being listed for a number of reasons. They are simply fascinating with rather unique histories and center to one of the key events of Japanese history.  The ships are also the only battleships operated by china and serve as a source of pride.   The chinese have actually rebuilt the ship in scale and now have it on display as a museum.  It is rather generous to call these battleships,  in realiaty they were "citadel Barbette ships". They actually predate the turret,  They are more in line with an armoured cruiser, than a battleship.   Perhaps some reprieve for them to appear in game,  but, who knows.

Displacement : 7220

Speed: 15.7 knots

Belt: 14in (compound steel and iron)

Deck: 3in

Barbetts: 14 - 12in

Casemates: 8in

CT: 8in

Armament:

4 - 12in/20 (2x2, Krupp BL)

2 - 5.9in/40 (2x1, Krupp BL)

3 - 14in TT

(be careful those on phones, large pictures)

 

http://rjw.narod.ru/...chin-endraw.htm

 

Note that the recreated ship does not weigh as much as the original, as such it sits very high in the water.

Cruisers______________________________________________________________

As stated before, China was unable to purchase many large warships,  the most powerful ships within their budget therefore, were typically cruisers with the Ning Hai class being the most modern to serve with china.

By standards of the time, the Ning Hai's were a bit slow and under armoured,  but for their size they were rather powerful.  Designed by the Japanese,  Ning Hai was built at the Harima Dock Company in Japan,  her sister ship Ping Hai was built under Japanese supervision at the Kiangnan Dock, China.   However, Japan ceased helping in 1933,  the ship wouldn't be complete till german assistance came in 1935 with german secondary weapons and 2 aircraft with handling equipment.

Both were excellent little ships and had similar fates.  During the second Sino-Japanese war, both were sunk in the Yangtze by japanese aircraft.  Raised and repaired by the Japanese, they were handed over to their puppet government in Nanking (1939).  In 1943 they were pressed into the IJN, rearmed; and eventually destroyed by American forces.

Displacement: 2500t

Speed: 22.25knots (24knots on trials)

Deck: 1in

Turret: 1in

Armament:

6 - 140mm/50 (3x2)

5 -533mm TT (2x2)

Ning Hai

6 - 76mm AA (6x1)

Ping Hai

3 - 88mm AA (3x1)

2 Aircraft

 

 

Though they were unbuilt, riviling the Ning Hai Class for the title of "most powerful cruiser"  in the Chinese navy was one to be built for the Chinese by CNT Monfalcone,  Austria-Hunary.  The ship was started but the shipyard was lost to the italians during WWI, then recaptured.  After this the design was altered to suit austro-hungarina needs, progress did not get far and the hull was scrapped after WWI.  There was a class of 3 smaller light cruiser that was to be built by the same yard, with a similar history.

Displacement: 4900t

Speed :28 knots

Belt: 4 - 2 3/8in

Deck 2.5 - 1in

Turrets : 4in

CT: 4in

Armament:

4 - 8in/50 (2x2)

12 - 4.7in/45 (12x1)

10 - 1.8in/44 (10x1)

4 - 37mm

8 - 7.9mm MG

2 - 18in TT

Destroyers______________________________________________________________

One would think that such a small navy would operate a large number of destroyers.  They are small,  able to operate in the large Chinese rivers,  capable of partisian duties, etc.  Well,  yeh,  China loved the idea,  but they felt torpedoes were unnecessary.   They had large ships with heavy artillery,   rarely did they expect to be out in the open ocean, and shore targets can't be torpedoed,  so naturally they built small gunboats instead.   That being said,  they did operate one class of destroyers, namely the Chang Feng.

You may know them by a different name,  sometimes Fu Po.  All 3 were renamed at least once in their lifetime,  and referred to by different sources as different names,  to avoid any confusion, I'm just going to use the original name, Chang Feng.  More like a seagoing torpedo boat than an actual destroyer, the Chang Fengs were immensely small,   relatively poorly armed,  but moderately fast.

Displacement: 390 tons

Speed : 32 knots

Armament

2 - 3in

4 - 3pdr

2 - 18in TT

 

 

There are a few other project destroyers that were never finished. None are a significant improvement over the Chang Fengs,  to the point where if they all got in game, they'd be a higher tier.  That being said,  one of the classes was actually built,  but due to WWI,  Italy requisitioned the ship and rearmed it.  At 28 knots,  it's a little too slow to be considered "better" than the Chang Feng,  even if it gets another gun and torpedo tube.   As for in gameness,  nothing over Tier II.   Chang Feng may be able to slip by with its small profile as a "very hard target"  but it would require a lot of skill to utilize its torpedoes effectively.

In closing,  China had quite a number of interesting warships,  however very few of them would ever appear in game.  The possibilities of a Chinese tree are just non-existent, any premium ship provided would be rather balanced if historical data is followed.

*WILL UPDATE LATER*

Ships to be added

Chao Ho Class

Ping Yuen Class

[Rickstag]

Very nice, interesting topic, good research, looking forward to your second post!

[JeeWeeJ]

Nice work! Nice to see some lesse known ships here. :) +1

[Dunewarrior]

More soon please! I love these articles on obscure eastern stuff...

[Mermaid_Witch]

Given how the Chinese tanks are handled, the best bets for a Chinese premium would be a Benson class destroyer, a Gleaves class destroyer, or a post-war Yukikaze.  Or they would be, if those ships hadn't gone to the Republic of China instead of the People's Republic of China.  I imagine a Republic of China ship would go over like a lead blimp in the mainland China market.

[Skygunner]

Mini_Bolo, on 06 September 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

Given how the Chinese tanks are handled, the best bets for a Chinese premium would be a Benson class destroyer, a Gleaves class destroyer, or a post-war Yukikaze.  Or they would be, if those ships hadn't gone to the Republic of China instead of the People's Republic of China.  I imagine a Republic of China ship would go over like a lead blimp in the mainland China market.

And using american equipment would somehow be better?   I doubt we will see any of these ships unless they appear in their IJN forms.  The post-war US/IJN ships operated by china were little touched and would have nothing really separating them from their USN/IJN counterparts, other than being Chinese.  Honestly I was shocked when I found the Chinese rebuilt the Ting Yuen, however after seeing some of the displays inside........Regardless,  I honestly doubt we will see any Chinese ships in game except maybe Ting Yuen, but that' sonly because the current government has already given it its seal of approval.   Even then, I would imagine it'd be like the FCM 36 Pak40,   that is,   Chinese flagged, but the IJN variant.   I'm also imagining that at it's tier, most ships are operating with relatively shorter than they should have gun ranges.   Throw in the whole "quality of armour" being disregarded and we have esentially a very slow heavy cruiser.......I'm being really optimistic here,  again doubt we'll see any.

[Mermaid_Witch]

Skygunner, on 06 September 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

And using american equipment would somehow be better?   I doubt we will see any of these ships unless they appear in their IJN forms.  The post-war US/IJN ships operated by china were little touched and would have nothing really separating them from their USN/IJN counterparts, other than being Chinese.  Honestly I was shocked when I found the Chinese rebuilt the Ting Yuen, however after seeing some of the displays inside........Regardless,  I honestly doubt we will see any Chinese ships in game except maybe Ting Yuen, but that' sonly because the current government has already given it its seal of approval.   Even then, I would imagine it'd be like the FCM 36 Pak40,   that is,   Chinese flagged, but the IJN variant.   I'm also imagining that at it's tier, most ships are operating with relatively shorter than they should have gun ranges.   Throw in the whole "quality of armour" being disregarded and we have esentially a very slow heavy cruiser.......I'm being really optimistic here,  again doubt we'll see any.

I was referring to the fact that the Chinese tanks that have made it into the game so far are essentially Soviet tanks that were already in-game with a few tweaked stats.  And since the Republic of China received the Yukikaze and had it rearmed to US specs, it'd follow the pattern that the Chinese tanks set down.  Same tank, different stats; same ship, different guns.

[Skygunner]

Mini_Bolo, on 07 September 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

I was referring to the fact that the Chinese tanks that have made it into the game so far are essentially Soviet tanks that were already in-game with a few tweaked stats.  And since the Republic of China received the Yukikaze and had it rearmed to US specs, it'd follow the pattern that the Chinese tanks set down.  Same tank, different stats; same ship, different guns.

Ahhh, I ssee.....however this line would make me believe that wouldnt' happen.

KGB, on 06 September 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Not using term "quality" helps us not to provoke butthurt, so we understand that someone will be hurt anyway.

Yehhhhhhhhhhhhhh,  that whole.......china, thing.   I have utterly no idea how they will get though that whole issue about how to flag a Chinese ship as Chinese.  This is what also leads me to believe that they simply will skip the modern Chinese and use a Beiyang Fleet ship.

[Argent108]

Nice information.   I'm fairly good with the modern Chinese ships, but haven't really explored their naval power pre 1960s.  Look forward to more posts.

[flyingtaco]

<p>some of the  American Yangtze Patrol were given to the Republic of China and were subsequently captured by the People's Republic. these were USS Wake and USS Tutuila. Neither carried anything larger than three inches and were built for shallow waters only, though they did visit the phillipines for certain things like overhauls.  the USS Texas was almost given to the chinese after the war, but Texas intervened. they still have two American WWII fleet subs over there in Taiwan and occationally museum experts from the US have to go over there to repair the torpedo data computers.

[Ariecho]

While I believe that eventually China will get there, the current situation, even far worse during the lifespan of the game is that China doesn't and didn't have any blue sea navy.  For the time being, WG had indicated that they were looking for indigenous ships, unless I'm mistaken.  So, and based on that information, I doubt that we will ever see a Chinese navy, although I will admit that your information, as usual, is really good and informative.

 

Ari

[Skygunner]

Wow, yep,  still going on this.

 

Got some amazing data off of german sources for the Ting Yuen,   This would make sense as they are german ships, go figure.   Their main armament was about 8000m  max range.  It doesn't sound like much, and it isn't,  but that's more than enough to compete with low tier cruisers.   During the actual battle of Yalu River,  their guns opened fire at 3000m.   Again, that makes sense,  long range fire is more of a video game thing,  ships rarely open fire with intentions of actually hitting at maximum range.  

 

Also added the Chang Feng.  

 

 

Also the forum ate all my spacing,  so it looks considerably more "wall of texty" sorry

[Super_Dreadnought]

Skygunner, on 16 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Wow, yep,  still going on this.

LOL it has almost been a entire year since Ari last posted on the 19th September 2012. This is one rather epic necro Skygunner. :teethhappy:
Still...it helpfully brings up good info to inform newcomers why a Chinese tech tree is effectively impossible.

[Crag_r]

You could have waited a year to necro it, you were only 2 days off

[Katyusha_454]

I'm rather hoping to see the Ning Hai added as a premium ship.  It's pretty neat and would fit well as a low-tier cruiser.

[Super_Dreadnought]

blackbird402, on 21 September 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

I'm rather hoping to see the Ning Hai added as a premium ship.  It's pretty neat and would fit well as a low-tier cruiser.

It is a good bet that it'll appear in the IJN tech tree as a lower tier premium cruiser, much like the captured premium tanks in WoTs. The Ning Hai class was designed in Japan, one was built in Japan, another built in China under Japanese supervision, later they were captured by Japan, and sailed by Japan.

[Windhover118]

Even if and I stess if China was added to the game, it would be several years down the road.

 

UK, Germany, Italy, France and Russia will have to be added after the initial release. Then we have countries that could at least have partial trees like Austria-Hungary.

[Guest]

I do like that Cruiser ..in terms of looks

[Super_Dreadnought]

Windhover118, on 22 September 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

Even if and I stess if China was added to the game, it would be several years down the road.

UK, Germany, Italy, France and Russia will have to be added after the initial release. Then we have countries that could at least have partial trees like Austria-Hungary.

Way waaaaaaay down the road after such naval powers like Austria, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Brazil, Argentina, and maybe even Canada who all have a better claim for a WoWs spot imho than China.

[Skygunner]

Super_Dreadnought, on 22 September 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Way waaaaaaay down the road after such naval powers like Austria, Netherlands, Spain, Sweden, Brazil, Argentina, and maybe even Canada who all have a better claim for a WoWs spot imho than China.

Correct.

There are only 2 ways I can ever see China appearing in WoWS.

1 - as part of Japan, via the ships the Japanese captured and incorporated into the IJN (not Chinese ships just appearing in the Japanese tree)

or

2 - Special release,  much like the original Type 59.   A few unique premiums just for China.  



that's about it.


Ting Yuen is possible as a low - mid tier cruiser,  China or IJN
Ning Hai - cruiser, China or IJN


that's probably about it.  The chang feng...MIGHT get in as a Tier II premie DD.....but i find it unlikely.  Their only other ships (built) that can get considered would be the Chao Ho Class,  but those are tier 1 ships.