How do Over Pens Work

[Yank59]

Excuse my ignorance but, I understand that over penetration is possible in-game, but how does it work? For example, let's say A cruiser fires a salvo of AP at the flank of a destroyer and over penetrates it. But will the shells over penetrate when the cruiser t crosses the destroyer (firing at its length)?

[NeutralState]

Yes.

 

If it is a similar system comparing to WoT. Then the penetrating distance will be a coefficient of your shell penetration value.

 

If you have a giant 16 inch shell pen the armor of a DD and the after applying the coefficient it is longer than the width of DD, you over pen. But if you fire it from bow to stern, then it'll pen along the ship length to whatever coefficient x shell penetration going to be damaging whatever's in the line of fire. (This also shows premium shells in WoT is better, almost always, because of higher pen value translates into more module damage.)

 

This kind of information WG should really make clear and in big fonts post it in game or some where easily accessible. But oh well...

[Mourneblade]

Excuse my ignorance but, I understand that over penetration is possible in-game, but how does it work? For example, let's say A cruiser fires a salvo of AP at the flank of a destroyer and over penetrates it. But will the shells over penetrate when the cruiser t crosses the destroyer (firing at its length)?

 

uhm maybe.... basically over pens are when the round hits nothing substantial..... like the smoke stack... or a part of the ship that could use a new window etc lol....You have less over pens from the front to rear... but they can happen if they hit deck structure that is non essential.

 

damn we lost the Anchor....

[Red_Raven_168]

"pass through without detonating"

 

so when the server doesn't detect a condition to detonate the AP - it goes **Poof**

 

oddly enough, it doesn't seem to detect overpenning resulting in any possibility of flooding (large hole in ship below waterline)

[Mourneblade]

 

 

oddly enough, it doesn't seem to detect overpenning resulting in any possibility of flooding (large hole in ship below waterline)

 

sadly....

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

Yes.

 

If it is a similar system comparing to WoT. Then the penetrating distance will be a coefficient of your shell penetration value.

 

If you have a giant 16 inch shell pen the armor of a DD and the after applying the coefficient it is longer than the width of DD, you over pen. But if you fire it from bow to stern, then it'll pen along the ship length to whatever coefficient x shell penetration going to be damaging whatever's in the line of fire. (This also shows premium shells in WoT is better, almost always, because of higher pen value translates into more module damage.)

 

This kind of information WG should really make clear and in big fonts post it in game or some where easily accessible. But oh well...

 

except in WoT they always explode inside.

WoT doesn't have overpen

 

 

sadly....

 

to complex coding. would lag the servers

[SharanaEU]

Excuse my ignorance but, I understand that over penetration is possible in-game, but how does it work? For example, let's say A cruiser fires a salvo of AP at the flank of a destroyer and over penetrates it. But will the shells over penetrate when the cruiser t crosses the destroyer (firing at its length)?

It depends if there will be enough armour to activate the detonator.

 

Sharana, on 02 July 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

The penetration however doesn't guarantee meaningful damage. The AP shells have delay detonators in order to explode inside the ship after penetrating the armor and not before that. Each shell has different detonator threshold (~1/6th of the calibre) and delay that increases with the caliber. That's the reason it's not useful to shoot with high calibre AP shells against low armored targets. 

The detonator is triggered by kinetic energy and it has to penetrate some minimal amount of armor in order to activate. Let's use again Fuso as example. The detonator's threshold is 59mm with delay of 0.033 seconds. With projectile speed of 775 m/s the shell will travel ~25 meters after the activation, but before the explosion. So if the target is light armored the AP shell will simply overpenetrate and explode after leaving the ship or won't arm at all if there is almost no armor on the target (like destroyers).

So in order to deal meaningful damage the shell has to explode inside the ship and there are two options. It will either be another battleship (in Fuso's case) that is wide enough so that the shell doesn't overpenetrate or the shell have to bounce while trying to leave the ship. That sometimes happens with BB AP shells hitting the cruiser's citadel (the most protected part).

There is another nuance that can help sometimes - underwater penetration. After hitting the water the detonator will arm and the shell will be slowed down. The penetrating ability will be much lower and won't be enough against other battleships, but if it's light armored target like DD or CA the shell will explode inside the ship avoiding the overpenetration issue (most of the oneshots of destroyers and crusers from BB's APs happen this way).

 

 

 

 

 

[Mourneblade]

 

 

 

to complex coding. would lag the servers

 

not buying that... they had flooding from shells in alpha... no lag...

 

not to be little your comment though....

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

not buying that... they had flooding from shells in alpha... no lag...

 

not to be little your comment though....

 

lol not my comment

that was what i saw the devs say

apparently alpha had less people

 

but then again. WG said alot of stuff would lag servers in WoT. all lies

[Mourneblade]

 

lol not my comment

that was what i saw the devs say

apparently alpha had less people

 

but then again. WG said alot of stuff would lag servers in WoT. all lies

 

yeah that's what I figured... which is why I did not want you thinking I was belittling you lol

 

No they do not want to do it because of Balance... they can say what they want...but Ap pens that flood would cause balance issues against DDs and CV's....

 

and it might be too complex of an idea for their Russian players... which is why we do not have the flood bar from alpha anymore...

[vak_]

oddly enough, it doesn't seem to detect overpenning resulting in any possibility of flooding (large hole in ship below waterline)

 

The devs were asked whether this was planned, and they said no. I think the reason is, that would make AP shells too powerful.

 

PS Plus the whining about AP hitting citadel and causing flooding would be so much worse than current whining about HE causing fires

[Edsgarth]

Chat cause's server lag!

 

resulting in more no damage over pens!

 

You just read it on the internet so it HAS to be true!

 

Glorious Stalin Navy Best Navy ever!

[vak_]

Excuse my ignorance but, I understand that over penetration is possible in-game, but how does it work? For example, let's say A cruiser fires a salvo of AP at the flank of a destroyer and over penetrates it. But will the shells over penetrate when the cruiser t crosses the destroyer (firing at its length)?

 

In real life AP shells over-penetrate when

(1) There is not enough armor to initiate the fuse

(2) When the fuze got initiated, but the ship width in the place of penetration was more narrow than a battleship at mid-frame, and the shell burst after exiting the ship from the other side.

 

I would imagine in game AP shells fuze after passing a certain amount of stuff (e.g. armor, STS bulkheads, etc), and after fusing they burst after a short travel time. If the fuze wasn't initiated,  the hit is considered an over-penetration. Maybe if the burst occurred outside the ship that's also over-penetration. Just my $0.02

[NeutralState]

 

In real life AP shells over-penetrate when

(1) There is not enough armor to initiate the fuse

(2) When the fuze got initiated, but the ship width in the place of penetration was more narrow than a battleship at mid-frame, and the shell burst after exiting the ship from the other side.

 

I would imagine in game AP shells fuze after passing a certain amount of stuff (e.g. armor, STS bulkheads, etc), and after fusing they burst after a short travel time. If the fuze wasn't initiated,  the hit is considered an over-penetration. Maybe if the burst occurred outside the ship that's also over-penetration. Just my $0.02

 

This is a game, an arcade game, not simulation. There's no fuse to AP shells. It is simply pen value x coefficient = interior penetration value. That's it. I highly doubt WG changes their base mechanics in WoWS, considering everything else is practically the same, like camo.

[vak_]

 

This is a game, an arcade game, not simulation. There's no fuse to AP shells. It is simply pen value x coefficient = interior penetration value. That's it. I highly doubt WG changes their base mechanics in WoWS, considering everything else is practically the same, like camo.

 

It's an arcade game, but their damage mechanism is still fairly sophisticated: they model all the ship's armor and various bulkheads, and there definitely is AP fuzing in-game. Proof: http://forum.worldofwarships.ru/index.php?/topic/10771-%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D1%81-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B9%D1%86%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D0%B1%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8E-%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8/

 

NeutralState, on 24 July 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

considering everything else is practically the same, like camo

 

WoWs spotting mechanics is actually somewhat different from WoT. And there is no second camo type in WoT, one that increases enemy's dispersion.

[Flarvin]

Yes.

 

If it is a similar system comparing to WoT. Then the penetrating distance will be a coefficient of your shell penetration value.

 

If you have a giant 16 inch shell pen the armor of a DD and the after applying the coefficient it is longer than the width of DD, you over pen. But if you fire it from bow to stern, then it'll pen along the ship length to whatever coefficient x shell penetration going to be damaging whatever's in the line of fire. (This also shows premium shells in WoT is better, almost always, because of higher pen value translates into more module damage.)

 

This kind of information WG should really make clear and in big fonts post it in game or some where easily accessible. But oh well...

 

Source? I have never seen anything that stated module damage was related to pen in WoT. Base on what the wiki states pen does not affect the amount of damage done, either to the tank or its modules. 

[Teriander]

Yesterday I used my Colorado Battleship and engaged a New Mexico at about 18km.  One of my AP rounds dropped directly on top of the New Mexico.  Dead smack in the middle.  Registered ZERO damage.  That's just stupid.  No ship on the planet during WWII would register ZERO damage from a 16" AP round dropping down on it that obviously would have went straight through the bottom if it "over penetrated".  Some of the mechanics in this game are just upsetting.  Especially with the Colorado.  I have witnessed far more B.S. with the Colorado than any other Battleships.   

[Rotary_Rocket]

 

except in WoT they always explode inside.

WoT doesn't have overpen

 

 

to complex coding. would lag the servers

 

Tank AP shells don't explode at all.  Only the premium ammo types do that and HE.

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

Tank AP shells don't explode at all.  Only the premium ammo types do that and HE.

 

in world of tanks. you can't have to much pen

HE and HEAT explode on impact 

AP and APCR go into the tank and explode(thats how they do dmg)

 

if Overpen existed in world of tanks

AP and APCR could possibly go through the tank for minimal dmg due to having to much pen.

 

but it doesn't. instead AP and APCR always explode in the tank  

 

[NeutralState]

 

in world of tanks. you can't have to much pen

HE and HEAT explode on impact 

AP and APCR go into the tank and explode(thats how they do dmg)

 

if Overpen existed in world of tanks

AP and APCR could possibly go through the tank for minimal dmg due to having to much pen.

 

but it doesn't. instead AP and APCR always explode in the tank  

 

 

No, it draws a line with the length equal to pen value x coefficient. Damaging every thing in that line. There's no internal explosion for AP. It's literally posted on the official WoT youtube section.

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

No, it draws a line with the length equal to pen value x coefficient. Damaging every thing in that line. There's no internal explosion for AP. It's literally posted on the official WoT youtube section.

 

*facepalm*

wrong explosion dude

 

i'm talking about overpen

 

aka, if a tank with 250 pen shoots something with side armor of 40mm.  it will lose 80mm pen(damaging everything in a line like you said) and pass through the other side. doing less dmg than listed on the gun.

but that doesn't happen in World of Tanks

in World of Tanks, because Overpen doesnt exist

a tank with 250 pen shoots the side armor of 40 pen. loses 40 pen. hits all modules in its line and then does full dmg (aka shell explodes).   it does NOT overpen like in world of warships.

 

 

get it?

[Col_Platinum]

Yesterday I used my Colorado Battleship and engaged a New Mexico at about 18km.  One of my AP rounds dropped directly on top of the New Mexico.  Dead smack in the middle.  Registered ZERO damage.  That's just stupid.  No ship on the planet during WWII would register ZERO damage from a 16" AP round dropping down on it that obviously would have went straight through the bottom if it "over penetrated".  Some of the mechanics in this game are just upsetting.  Especially with the Colorado.  I have witnessed far more B.S. with the Colorado than any other Battleships.   

 

Maybe a sailor caught the shell like a baseball? A russian can probably do that anyways.

[Rotary_Rocket]

 

in world of tanks. you can't have to much pen

HE and HEAT explode on impact 

AP and APCR go into the tank and explode(thats how they do dmg)

 

if Overpen existed in world of tanks

AP and APCR could possibly go through the tank for minimal dmg due to having to much pen.

 

but it doesn't. instead AP and APCR always explode in the tank  

 

 

AP WoT shells are solid metal there is no explosive charge in them, they will fragment on impact.  Naval AP shells do have explosive charges with delay fuses.

[Strike_Witch_Tomoko]

 

AP WoT shells are solid metal there is no explosive charge in them, they will fragment on impact.  Naval AP shells do have explosive charges with delay fuses.

 

if they fragmented on impact, then when a shell hits spaced armor. it would blow up before hitting the tank

 

example

Pz4H's side armor

IS-3's spaced side armor

Super P's front

ALL TANKS MANTLETS

 

but no.  by your logic. lets hear how a shell knows its time to "fragment"

 

how does it KNOW when its passed the spaced armor and is inside the tank.

 

In WoT a 122mm gun will do 390 dmg regardless of if it shoots 20 spaced armor and then 70 armor

or if it shots 20 armor.

 

look at WT auf  E 100 turret.

 

Overpen DOES NOT EXIST IN WORLD OF TANKS

if it did. then the tank with 20 armor would have the shell go through it before fragmenting on the other side(Fragmenting. aka exploding)

[Reiter]

WoT has semi-Underpenn armor.  Its called tracks!  Also the radio man, bravely throwing himself in front of 76-122+mm shell and not damaging the interior...how that happens I don't know using spaling and high velocity splinters let alone the heavy slug of metal using real world physics into the interior of a fighting compartment (should do minimum damage not just zero, thank god Ships does at least a minimum).  But the tracks and radioman...hate the damn things, swear "THAT ONE HURTS!" or what ever the penetration message was with zero hitpoint reduction was always misleading with zero reward.

 

Leave this here, cause I just saw this video and the thread at the same time

 

 

Someone has to much free time  but honestly you should have a chance for AP to tumble like how HE has a high chance to create fire, maybe cause flood damage or greater chance for less over penetration mechanics to work like they do except against destroyers (you know, shoot a cruiser with a battleship and do little damage but the battleship was ment to seriously hurt a cruiser regardless of the shell type).