Buff Battleships, Nerf Cruisers

[DeprivedPickle]

All problems solved, balance to the force has been restored.

 

But Seriously though, please read this through if you intend to comment.  This is about Balance, not realism.  I have over 2700 games played since CBT, 1500 in BB and 1000 in CA.

 

I have been on both sides of the issue where 1 cruiser can solo 1 BB when both are from full health.  In my Atago I can play back at max range and spam HE shells, then wiggle ever so slightly and the BB can't touch me.  When he does its usually an over pen and I keep on going.  I have actually taken on many BB solo and come out ahead by far in damage dealt.

 

Then there's me in my Izumo, The biggest piece of **** in the game taking obscene damage from everything at all angles.  I have been wrecked by a single mogami using the t4 captain skill to sit back at 16-18km and spam HE till I died from Full HP.  There is no Counter.  I can't spin enough to avoid more than half the volley.  I cant try and play the range game because they can set the distance with their speed.  My accuracy is just atrocious at all distances, but they have magical lazer guided bullets.

 

GETTING A LUCKY CITADEL ON A CRUISER EVERY 1 in 5 Volleys DOES NOT BALANCE THIS ISSUE. if they are good, they will angle till you shoot, then take that opportunity to go broadside to use all guns till they angle back in for your next shot.

 

Here's what I DO NOT think Needs to be changed.

 

1. HE Damage and Fire Damage do not need to be nerfed.  If you take away the HE potential, you effectively set cruisers back to 3.1 status where they couldn't even look at a BB the wrong way.

 

2.  Battleships do not need an increase in accuracy at long range.  If you were to buff BB at long range to balance out the cruiser issue, you would effectively wreck the balance between battleships vs battleships and battleships vs destroyers. 

 

Here's what I think SHOULD be changed

 

1. Increase Battleship accuracy at close range (under 5-7km or so).  I am so tired of running beside a ship 2km to my side and watching my volley still manage to splash in front of the ship and go over top of it at the same time while not hitting the ship....  If ANYTHING gets that close to a BB, it should be asking to take a serious hit.  This takes care of suicide runs from anything with torpedoes that you can't stop because you can't hit it.

 

2.  Severely Reduce Cruiser Accuracy at max ranges and give them back their great accuracy at 10km and lower.   Can anyone explain why at Mogami shooting at 18km and an Izumo shooting at 18km

should have such drastic differences in accuracy?  Other than Balance and make believe, they should have similar gun fire control systems for firing at long range and therefore offer similar dispersions.  In fact, the smaller caliber shots should suffer quite a bit being shot at such long ranges.  There is no reason Balance wise or Realism wise to give them such good accuracy at long range.

   

The issue isn't the HE rounds or fire, but the fact that they can hit with such insane precision against a slow moving large target at all ranges while the Battleships can't hit back consistently.

 

-IF a BB and CA engage at long ranges, both should suffer from accuracy and in a 1v1 the BB comes out on top, but doesn't leave the cruiser completely out of options (leaving the engagement with superior speed, closing the distance with superior speed, using detectability to disappear, using considerably better maneuverability to dodge). 

-In Mid ranges, the Cruiser would come out on top gaining back a good bit of accuracy around 10km while the BB still has a fighting chance because although dispersion still sucks, it's likely to hit a few rounds and they can try and either close the gap further or increase distance to where they have the advantage again.

-At Close range, the BB can then punish ships for getting in too close for torp runs and so on with accuracy more on par with cruisers. 

 

This would also be a nerf to DD that can casually walk up next to BB for suicide torp runs, and yet a BUFF to DD as both cruisers and battleships can no longer snipe them at long ranges when spotted.

 

This still allows Cruisers to be a threat to Battleships without affecting too much in balance in other aspects of the game.

 

*****TL;DR*****

The issue with HE is not the damage or fires, its the fact that cruisers have pin point accuracy all the way to max ranges and battleships have SH!T dispersion from max range to right under their hull.

 

[IronWolfV]

I'll give ya cruisers are way too accurate at max range.  Should be toned down.

[StooperDave]

This is actually a pretty good idea. I've often wondered why cruisers were so damn accurate anyway. lighter shells would be more affected by wind and adjacent muzzle blast than heavy shells, which is what the RNG is simulating, so cruiser dispersion should be much worse than BB, not better. 

 

+1. Great idea to balance this problem out. Why the hell does a cruiser even have the ability to fire at 18km? US BBs dont even get that till tier 8. Seems OP to me. 

[commander_cheef]

i was wondering if i should make a BB QQ list. . .

 

BB drivers always complain about what ever hurts them.

[Red_Raven_168]

 

+1. Great idea to balance this problem out. Why the hell does a cruiser even have the ability to fire at 18km? US BBs dont even get that till tier 8. Seems OP to me. 

 

shush - don't even mention range - the developers go catatonic if they see that word and never read the topic again

[The_GoDDfather]

If a DD gets hit at long range (12km+).... Well the guy's a scrub/newb and needs to learn, or he needs to just stop playing DD. DDs are maneuverable enough to dodge any shot at long range. Just pay attention to shells. All I really see here is an indirect, but acknowledged, nerf on DD.

 

As for the cruiser issue I completely agree.

[StooperDave]

i was wondering if i should make a BB QQ list. . .

 

BB drivers always complain about what ever hurts them.

 

Well, if you look at the queue currently, there are as many BBs in line as everything else combined, sometimes more. Battleships are what people think about when they think about naval power in WW2, thats what draws people to this game. If battleships are anemic and pointless to even have in a match since cruisers do everything they do, and better. Then all the people that came to this game to play battleships will no longer play this game.

 

I guess you could say what hurts battleships hurts the game as a whole. I dont want to see this thing tank like warplanes, though it is starting to seem inevitable at this point since WG takes so long to fix their problems. 

[SpeedingBus]

HE rounds are still the problem range is merely a secondary factor to issue. This video highlights the hilarity of HE rounds.

[DeprivedPickle]

i was wondering if i should make a BB QQ list. . .

 

BB drivers always complain about what ever hurts them.

 

Clearly you didn't read the entire post....  Right now its more than just getting hurt, its a one sided match in favour of the CAs at long range.  I want to bring them into balance where they can fight and do severe damage, but not without some risk.

[StooperDave]

HE rounds are still the problem range is merely a secondary factor to issue. This video highlights the hilarity of HE rounds.

 

Yeah, thats been my experience more often than i care to remember. But i guess if you've never been on the receiving end of it, it doesn't seem like a big deal. But if that cruiser had BB style dispersion, which by rights, it should have with the lighter guns, then the incoming damage wouldn't have been nearly as silly. 

[DeprivedPickle]

 

Yeah, thats been my experience more often than i care to remember. But i guess if you've never been on the receiving end of it, it doesn't seem like a big deal. But if that cruiser had BB style dispersion, which by rights, it should have with the lighter guns, then the incoming damage wouldn't have been nearly as silly. 

 

I am ok with this though, The cruiser got in the perfect zone to deal maximum damage.  But if BB had better accuracy at close range, then he could have tried different tactics such as closing the range and fighting back, not trying to run away and watch as every shot misses cause dispersions a thing only BB really get.

[commander_cheef]

 

Well, if you look at the queue currently, there are as many BBs in line as everything else combined, sometimes more. Battleships are what people think about when they think about naval power in WW2, thats what draws people to this game. If battleships are anemic and pointless to even have in a match since cruisers do everything they do, and better. Then all the people that came to this game to play battleships will no longer play this game.

 

I guess you could say what hurts battleships hurts the game as a whole. I dont want to see this thing tank like warplanes, though it is starting to seem inevitable at this point since WG takes so long to fix their problems. 

 

i hate to brake it to you but CVs were the major power in WW2, its the reason why the US won the war. (it the IJN destroyed the US CVs during the attack at pearl harbor then the war would have been a vary different story)

 

if WG was to buff BBs then they would destroy every other class making the game vary unbalanced.

 

you just have to make yourself better at the game rather then the game giving you everything. that is just how life works. 

 

[Xasper]

 

Well, if you look at the queue currently, there are as many BBs in line as everything else combined, sometimes more. Battleships are what people think about when they think about naval power in WW2, thats what draws people to this game. If battleships are anemic and pointless to even have in a match since cruisers do everything they do, and better. Then all the people that came to this game to play battleships will no longer play this game.

 

I guess you could say what hurts battleships hurts the game as a whole. I dont want to see this thing tank like warplanes, though it is starting to seem inevitable at this point since WG takes so long to fix their problems. 

 

This is actually a problem, if you buff Battleships or nerf Cruisers, you're going to see even _more_ battleships! as it is i'm constantly thrown into games where it's 7 BB's 3 CA's maybe a DD and a CV per side... They need to do something to incentivise playing the other classes... I'm not promoting imbalance here, nerf cruisers if they really are OP, but limit the number of each class that can be in a game to 5 or something, so each team can only have 5 BB's, 5 Cruisers, or 5 DD's per match, rock-paper-scissors doesn't work when you have so many rocks that you run out of paper.

[DeprivedPickle]

 

This is actually a problem, if you buff Battleships or nerf Cruisers, you're going to see even _more_ battleships! as it is i'm constantly thrown into games where it's 7 BB's 3 CA's maybe a DD and a CV per side... They need to do something to incentivise playing the other classes... I'm not promoting imbalance here, nerf cruisers if they really are OP, but limit the number of each class that can be in a game to 5 or something, so each team can only have 5 BB's, 5 Cruisers, or 5 DD's per match, rock-paper-scissors doesn't work when you have so many rocks that you run out of paper.

 

Like any game, there will always be a tendancy to go with OP things, and finding balance isn't always easy.  There have been many times the balance from AP to HE has shifted too much, and between classes.  But All things being equal, the BB putting out more damage per shot, having twice the HP pool, but still cant deal with the CA effectively...  a small but necessary tweak is needed.

[Raptor_alcor]

 

i hate to brake it to you but CVs were the major power in WW2, its the reason why the US won the war. (it the IJN destroyed the US CVs during the attack at pearl harbor then the war would have been a vary different story)

 

if WG was to buff BBs then they would destroy every other class making the game vary unbalanced.

 

you just have to make yourself better at the game rather then the game giving you everything. that is just how life works. 

 

 

Really? if WG was to buff BBs in any way, even lowering dispersion by 5%, then the game would be broken? I REALLY don't see that as happening. I really only have an issue with BBs in that over 2km I feel like I'm sailing a floating shotgun rather than a ship that has straight barrels. 

[Scotty_SE]

BB's don't need to be buffed. CV's need to be nerfed so they can't 'at will' send BB's to the bottom and this will result in an automatic BB buff and resolve things. Because most BB drivers prefer to drive in a convenient straight like between volleys doesn't mean cruisers need a nerf.

 

Some BB's like the Colorado and Izumo have legit performance issues relative to their tier. Fix those explicitly.

[userz123]

The idea behind battleship in this game was completely flawed, as i mentioned over and over again and again, Battleships are made to be ultimate pwnmobile before CV, WG artificially put BB on the same plane field as CA and DD just defeat the purpose of having BB. 

What WG thought was that they nerf BB so ppl would play other classes but that didn't turn out to be the case, ppl still love BB no matter what. and there will always be people who love to play other ship types, so why not restore each ship type to their original purpose would solve all the problem, CV strongest pwnmobile, BB pwnmobile, CA weaker pwnmoble and DD get pwned by itself.but pwn CV because anti air fire. I know that's never going to happen so just play cruisers destroyers that's what WG wanted the player to do anyway. 

 

My hope now is that Gaijin would make a real proper ship combat and class role instead of this fantasy ship online 2015.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

My hope now is that Gaijin would make a real proper ship combat and class role instead of this fantasy ship online 2015.

 

Gaijin make anything proper?  You jest.  Gaijin is worse than Wargamming IMO.

 

Sorry but HE Spam is definitely an issue with the cruiser/BB dynamic.  Considering that a BB should basically have to ignore a cruiser to die to it due to the "intended" rock/paper/scissors style of gameplay, they are currently doing way too much damage.  The problem is that at higher tiers the problem actually gets worse as their gun range gets longer thanks to larger projectiles.  At the long ranges these ships basically dance at their max range while a BB struggles to land anything substantial.  Good cruiser captains at higher tier WRECK good BB players.  I've seen it countless times.

 

If the supposed "max range" of the guns in this game are by effective range then cut the range on a cruiser down substantially if they want to keep the current HE spam intact.

[Raptor_alcor]

 

Gaijin make anything proper?  You jest.  Gaijin is worse than Wargamming IMO.

 

Sorry but HE Spam is definitely an issue with the cruiser/BB dynamic.  Considering that a BB should basically have to ignore a cruiser to die to it due to the "intended" rock/paper/scissors style of gameplay, they are currently doing way too much damage.  The problem is that at higher tiers the problem actually gets worse as their gun range gets longer thanks to larger projectiles.  At the long ranges these ships basically dance at their max range while a BB struggles to land anything substantial.  Good cruiser captains at higher tier WRECK good BB players.  I've seen it countless times.

 

If the supposed "max range" of the guns in this game are by effective range then cut the range on a cruiser down substantially if they want to keep the current HE spam intact.

 

Just because you can't adapt to realistic modeling doesn't mean that the games are terrible, 

[DeprivedPickle]

 

Just because you can't adapt to realistic modeling doesn't mean that the games are terrible, 

 

Just because you have barely any games played with the lastest patch doesnt mean you don't know what you're talking about.

 

ohhhh.... wait.

[VTAdmiral]

 

Just because you have barely any games played with the lastest patch doesnt mean you don't know what you're talking about.

 

ohhhh.... wait.

Nice strawman. Has nothing to do with the discussion though. Gaijin did tanks and planes both better than wargaming did, it's inevitable that world of warships will prompt them to pull Naval Forces off the back burner.

[Brohk]

Accuracy and HE damage are two parts of the same problem. Allowing Cruisers laser-like accuracy (comparatively), coupled with a fast RoF and consistent damage with HE shells is just too much. I like some of the ideas the OP gave to correct this imbalance but I disagree on one thing and that is fires being fine as they are now. One fire isn't a big deal, two or more is a big deal. Being able to start multiple fires on a ship is just too much right now because the cumulative damage of, say, three fires is horrendous. They need to make changes with multiple fires.

[UrPeaceKeeper]

 

Just because you can't adapt to realistic modeling doesn't mean that the games are terrible, 

 

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!  Gaijin?  Realistic? Wow.  Ok.  I can't even begin to count the number of aircraft that outdive and outclimb a P47 in that game that shouldn't be able to.  Glass tails on US Bomber formations?  Not that common in real life, horribly common in that game (to the point where a single (P39 looking at a B25 wrong would instagib the B25).  I played Warthunder and there was nothing close to realistic about that game's modeling of aircraft.  And that went on to Realistic and Historical battles too although it was much better.

[Kermut]

 

i hate to brake it to you but CVs were the major power in WW2, its the reason why the US won the war. (it the IJN destroyed the US CVs during the attack at pearl harbor then the war would have been a vary different story)

 

if WG was to buff BBs then they would destroy every other class making the game vary unbalanced.

 

you just have to make yourself better at the game rather then the game giving you everything. that is just how life works. 

 

 

I hate to break it to you, but currently BBs are unbalanced. It would not break the game to fix them but doing what Pickle outlines. Clearly this game is NOT about historical reason, it's about fun, and right now it's not as much fun to play BBs as for no good reason they are underpowered vs most other classes in the game.

[Endeav]

 

I am ok with this though, The cruiser got in the perfect zone to deal maximum damage.  But if BB had better accuracy at close range, then he could have tried different tactics such as closing the range and fighting back, not trying to run away and watch as every shot misses cause dispersions a thing only BB really get.

 

I kinda wish I had posted the entire replay. I was in that position because I wanted to be there, the Atlanta did not know where I was and I knew there would be a cruiser around the corner. 9 KM is supposed to be in my happy zone, and dispersion said nope. The dispersion of my guns is not the issue here, but rather how quickly a single CL firing HE was able to kill me.