The current Meta and where it is failing

[otakuben]

A while back someone posted a picture from a WG news story about what counters what. Essentially it came down to BB's hard counter CA/CL's, CA/CL's hard counter DD's, DD's hard counter BB's and CV's are a soft counter to everything. What this means I when a ship hard counter something that means in a 1 vs 1 battle the one that hard counters will come out on top and only really truly skilled players can change that. A soft counter means in a 1 vs 1 situation either can win and skill really plays a factor in determining the winner. However currently the meta doesn't work like that. BB's are hard countered by CV's and DD's and soft countered by CA/CL's. CA/CL's are soft countered by everything but DD's, DD's are hard countered by CA/CL's but soft countered by nothing, and CV's are hard countered by DD's and soft countered by CA/CL's. Balance is essentially on its head.

[A_FIELD_MARSHAL]

BBs are out countered by everything. They need to fix how HE fires work and how AP shells work. Unless the BB hits the citadel of a CA/CL the CA/CL is gunna win due to HE fires and out DPMing the BB. As it stands BBs are too slow,Turrets turn too slow,Slow reload on the guns,Bad dispersion. If a BB loads AP and tries to hit the Citadel and fails only few thousand damage max for a 29/30 sec reload. 

 

Make the shells like WoT if an AP shell pens a ship do +/- 20% of the average damage listed on the shell. If it pens and hits critical area it does increased damage. Have HE do consistent low damage but works great against DD per their low armor and ablity to cause critical damage to guns and such. 

[Lopanjq]

After a lot of playing I believe that its the damage of the HE shells rather than the rate of set fires that has skewed the balance so badly. That and the gun dispersion of the BBs which doesn't seem on the agenda for a fix.

[Xplato]

the problem with that, is that in a game like WOWS, and WOT.

It

Just

Doesn't

Work.

 

if this was a table top RPG, it would. however in a game like WOWS, every class has to be able to beat every other class. otherwise the more casual players get frustrated. it also goes against WG ideology "if you are good you will Pwn". every single one of their balancing decisions pretty much fall on that one line.

 

as for HE/AP shells. the problem is that everyone has the completely wrong idea when it comes to them.

in WOT, AP is for constant damage, and HE is situational.

in WOWS it's the opposite. HE is designed to be constant damage, while AP is situational.

 

HE in WOWS, is the AP round, while AP, is the HE shell. once you understand that, pretty much everything makes since 

[2Floods1Ship]

Hold on a second, CV's are hard countered by DD's?

 

Hardly. Most CV's can move fast enough that they can make it to the friendly ships before a DD can close. They constantly have planes flying overhead which allows instant torpedo spotting so a DD has to close to point blank to kill them. And with the dinky crap cannons on their decks its not like their cannon based armament will do the job with any kind of speed when most CV's fall somewhere between cruisers and battleships for health.

 

Upper tier CV's dont even need to sink the DD, their bombers can force them to maneuver so often that their effective speed drops by 10 knots allowing the CV to safely make it to some cruisers and such. 

 

Good DD players only ever go after CV's if they are targets of opportunity or the last target. 

 

The best counter to CV's is cruisers. They can move at roughly equivalent speed, rain fire onto the decks of CV's preventing launch and recovery, and their AA can smack down bombers before they can sink the cruiser. 

[Special_Kay]

BBs are out countered by everything. They need to fix how HE fires work and how AP shells work. Unless the BB hits the citadel of a CA/CL the CA/CL is gunna win due to HE fires and out DPMing the BB. As it stands BBs are too slow,Turrets turn too slow,Slow reload on the guns,Bad dispersion. If a BB loads AP and tries to hit the Citadel and fails only few thousand damage max for a 29/30 sec reload. 

 

Make the shells like WoT if an AP shell pens a ship do +/- 20% of the average damage listed on the shell. If it pens and hits critical area it does increased damage. Have HE do consistent low damage but works great against DD per their low armor and ablity to cause critical damage to guns and such. 

 

Your first paragraph reads a lot like the recent "give destroyers love" thread, where you ask for a laundry list of things which would make for a very broken balance if granted. All battleships really need is the dispersion to not be ridiculous. AP damage is fine, at least up to tier five.

 

The thing is, the devs artificially lowered main battery ranges to force battleships to operate at more accurate ranges than players would otherwise use. Now I don't agree with their methods, but instead of cluing in most players simply seem to get bitter and try to stay at their new "maximum" range. Ironically, battleships often have superior fires per minute capability when in an HE duel with cruisers, and also have more tools available to combat the (highly repairable) fire and HE damage. But if you're using AP at ranges where your firing arc gives you bad penetration, or if you're using AP against ships with paper armour, you're not going to see good results. HE can penetrate for citadel hits, just ask any Omaha that has hit a Langley in its belly with HE.

 

Cruisers reward reactive playing. Battleships reward predictive playing. I agree that it's more punishing being wrong in a battleship; being caught out with your turrets pointing the wrong way, without support against air or destroyers, or being caught out with the wrong shells loaded are all bad for your health. To me these are acceptable tradeoffs for being the toughest and hardest-hitting ship on the map, but only if dispersion gets fixed. I think they actually made it worse in a recent attempt to buff it.

[SourKraut13]

Did you know that they changed HE damage from a fixed amount to a variable amount based on size of shell? That means a BB's HE will do more damage / set more fires than CA's. If you don't like CA's spaming you with HE, hit them back with HE. 99% of all CA's don't have enough armor to prevent over pen.

[x2_Weekends]

They've made Cruisers too good.  In some instances their firing ranges are longer than same tier BB's, allowing them to stay just out of the reach of BB's.  They really need to go back and look at the balance of firing ranges and ensure tier for tier that DD's are shortest, CA/CL's are medium, and BB's are long. 

 

The other thing is BB accuracy, or lack thereof.  Firing only 2 salvos per minute, and only getting 1,000 damage is really bad for a class that needs damage output because, honestly, that's all the class has.  It doesn't have speed to cap or defend, it doesn't have torps.  All a BB can do is soak up damage and dish it back out.  But they don't even do that effectively because the BB ability to return fire and have a fighting chance is negated by their insane dispersion.

 

So it's not that Wargaming has made the other classes bad; they just need some tweaking (USN DD detection range, BB accuracy, etc.).  The primary issue is they've made CA/CL's too good so there's no incentive to play a gimped class.  Everyone's gravitating to CA/CL's now because they have speed to cap/defend, speed to chase down any target, range to hit any target from nearly any distance once spotted, the agility to dodge torps, the ability to launch their own torps, and just enough armor (*cough* St Louis *cough*) that they can even serve as mini-BB's and soak some damage.

So..the meta is 90% of the population is playing CA/CL's and 10% of the population is divided among BB, CV and DD players.

[Argon3]

A BB's main asset should be long range gunfire

Shoot the CCs before they can fire back

 

Which with the maps I have seen (except Ocean)

They do NOT have the range to use it, Islands get in the way to much

 

I have sunk many a BB in my DD by waiting for them to fire then rushing out from behind islands and torping them

Or even zig-zagging to make them miss and closing

 

Low level BB's are WAY overrated, that's why we see all the CCs and DDs

 

BB's will have a use in CW if it ever gets started

Right now I am only moving up the BB line to get to CVs

 

Of course if they do get in a good salvo it hurts A LOT

[Xplato]

They've made Cruisers too good.  In some instances their firing ranges are longer than same tier BB's, allowing them to stay just out of the reach of BB's.  They really need to go back and look at the balance of firing ranges and ensure tier for tier that DD's are shortest, CA/CL's are medium, and BB's are long. 

 

The other thing is BB accuracy, or lack thereof.  Firing only 2 salvos per minute, and only getting 1,000 damage is really bad for a class that needs damage output because, honestly, that's all the class has.  It doesn't have speed to cap or defend, it doesn't have torps.  All a BB can do is soak up damage and dish it back out.  But they don't even do that effectively because the BB ability to return fire and have a fighting chance is negated by their insane dispersion.

 

So it's not that Wargaming has made the other classes bad; they just need some tweaking (USN DD detection range, BB accuracy, etc.).  The primary issue is they've made CA/CL's too good so there's no incentive to play a gimped class.  Everyone's gravitating to CA/CL's now because they have speed to cap/defend, speed to chase down any target, range to hit any target from nearly any distance once spotted, the agility to dodge torps, the ability to launch their own torps, and just enough armor (*cough* St Louis *cough*) that they can even serve as mini-BB's and soak some damage.

So..the meta is 90% of the population is playing CA/CL's and 10% of the population is divided among BB, CV and DD players.

is that why Every single time I que, BB out populate every other class by 2to1?

 

haha you are funny, not to mention flat out making up that crap.

[TheDreadnought]

is that why Every single time I que, BB out populate every other class by 2to1?

 

haha you are funny, not to mention flat out making up that crap.

 

This is because everyone loves the majesty of battleships.

 

But its true, in the game BBs are underpowered and often get slaughtered by cruisers.  Fires are too effective.  Armor isn't effective enough.

 

BBs only vulnerabilities should be to aircraft, torpedoes, and other BBs.  But many of the rapid-firing type cruisers can solo a BB due to the way the rules work now.

[Xplato]

 

This is because everyone loves the majesty of battleships.

 

But its true, in the game BBs are underpowered and often get slaughtered by cruisers.  Fires are too effective.  Armor isn't effective enough.

 

BBs only vulnerabilities should be to aircraft, torpedoes, and other BBs.  But many of the rapid-firing type cruisers can solo a BB due to the way the rules work now.

 

lol no.Everyone like the tiger, and yet the Tiger doesn't have that many people playing it.

 

as for BB being underpowered, it's nothing wrong with the ship class. it has to do with the bads in the ships.

 

the problem with that, is what happens if one side has 10 BB, the other side has none, no Carriers, and only 1 DD? oh yeah it's an instant loss,AKA IT'S NOT BALANCED. that's why Cruisers are meant to counter BB, just like BB counter Cruisers. something you and most like you are unable to understand.

[Special_Kay]

They've made Cruisers too good.  In some instances their firing ranges are longer than same tier BB's, allowing them to stay just out of the reach of BB's.  They really need to go back and look at the balance of firing ranges and ensure tier for tier that DD's are shortest, CA/CL's are medium, and BB's are long. 

 

The other thing is BB accuracy, or lack thereof.  Firing only 2 salvos per minute, and only getting 1,000 damage is really bad for a class that needs damage output because, honestly, that's all the class has.  It doesn't have speed to cap or defend, it doesn't have torps.  All a BB can do is soak up damage and dish it back out.  But they don't even do that effectively because the BB ability to return fire and have a fighting chance is negated by their insane dispersion.

 

So it's not that Wargaming has made the other classes bad; they just need some tweaking (USN DD detection range, BB accuracy, etc.).  The primary issue is they've made CA/CL's too good so there's no incentive to play a gimped class.  Everyone's gravitating to CA/CL's now because they have speed to cap/defend, speed to chase down any target, range to hit any target from nearly any distance once spotted, the agility to dodge torps, the ability to launch their own torps, and just enough armor (*cough* St Louis *cough*) that they can even serve as mini-BB's and soak some damage.

So..the meta is 90% of the population is playing CA/CL's and 10% of the population is divided among BB, CV and DD players.

 

is that why Every single time I que, BB out populate every other class by 2to1?

 

haha you are funny, not to mention flat out making up that crap.

 

Yes, while I feel Anthronole's points are valid, he greatly overstates his case which serves only to weaken his argument. However, I still agree in principle with the parts of the design he chose to criticize.