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SyberSmoke

Why manual TP runs are not OP

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So...people have been complaining about CV's and their ability to manual TB's to get solid hits on a ship...even on a rare occasion hit a DD.  But most of the people saying CV's are OP do not play a CV.  So here it is, lets take a simple case, the US carrier Langly with her single squadron of TB's.

 

We will start the run against a target by rearming the planes.  This takes 45 seconds.  (Note I have some skills so this time is lower then stock)

We will then launch the planes...here is another 10-12 seconds.

The planes are in the air...depending on distance to target we are in the air for 60 seconds to get into position...longer or less depending on where the target is.

Then once in a descent position we observe a little and start laying out where we need to put the planes so they can start their 2km run up for the drop.  More time.

If the target maneuvers, we need to anticipate this and adjust...more time.

Then the commit, the planes are doing the run...the torps drop and if all is well the targets takes a few to the side.

The planes then fly back for another 60 seconds.

Then they land...this takes 10-20 seconds.

 

By the time it is all said and done, that single torpedo run, with six torpedo's from the Langly has taken 3 minutes and forty seconds.  Three minutes and forty seconds to potentially land no torpedo's at all.  Now Dive bombers are faster and rearm faster...but they do far less damage.  This is why there have been some talk about the developers implementing AP bombs.

 

But Carriers are in no way OP...at least not the US side.  The IJN side get more squadrons, but fewer planes each.  So they can get their planes out faster, but run the risk of missing more as they have a wider gap between torps.  Honestly I would like to be able to arm my fighters with 5" rockets so they can do attack runs on cruisers and DD's.  But that may not happen.

 

Any way...carriers are not OP if you consider how much time and effort go into a solid strike.  We do not get the ability to span shells every 6-10 seconds like a cruiser.  We do not get to spam torps like a DD.  And we do not get the big punch of a BB...when the shells hit.  We pick our targets more like a sniper...stalk them then do our best to make sure they die in one hit.

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i would beg to differ, when your torp bombers can drop torps and they appear less than 20 feet from my hull ZERO time to evade or do anything about it. Then its a broken system dying because of something i could not control is frustrating as you would not understand torps i can dodge from dds and most torp plane drops unless its the cvs who do those insane 20 feet away drops that as soon as i see it i just go well im boned

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i would beg to differ, when your torp bombers can drop torps and they appear less than 20 feet from my hull ZERO time to evade or do anything about it. Then its a broken system dying because of something i could not control is frustrating as you would not understand torps i can dodge from dds and most torp plane drops unless its the cvs who do those insane 20 feet away drops that as soon as i see it i just go well im boned

If you wait to start evading until you see the torpedoes, you were dead already. 

 

Why do I have to keep saying this? 

Edited by mouth1313
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no point in evading when they appear and alarms go off 20 feet from my ship. normal torps i can see and react to and if i see torp planes i make sure to adjust course but none of that helps with the 20 feet drops i do not care how skilled you are

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i would beg to differ, when your torp bombers can drop torps and they appear less than 20 feet from my hull ZERO time to evade or do anything about it. Then its a broken system dying because of something i could not control is frustrating as you would not understand torps i can dodge from dds and most torp plane drops unless its the cvs who do those insane 20 feet away drops that as soon as i see it i just go well im boned

 

As OP said, it takes a long time to adjust. If you see a torpedo bomber coming for you, turn into or away from it. You don't just have that 20 feet, the whole time you see that torpedo squadron coming for you is time for you to dodge those torpedoes.
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i would beg to differ, when your torp bombers can drop torps and they appear less than 20 feet from my hull ZERO time to evade or do anything about it. Then its a broken system dying because of something i could not control is frustrating as you would not understand torps i can dodge from dds and most torp plane drops unless its the cvs who do those insane 20 feet away drops that as soon as i see it i just go well im boned

 

If I could drop a load of torps every minute, I would agree.  But as I said it takes a CV 3 minutes to cycle their planes...more or less depending on skills and range and tier.  Simply put your complaining because you do not get to dodge the snipers bullet.  But unlike a guy in the hills, you sir can see our planes coming.  They are on the minimap, they get markers on your hud, and you can see them in the sky.  If you're not paying attention to that blip...well sad to say you kind of deserve to take 4 torps to the flank.
Edited by SyberSmoke
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no point in evading when they appear and alarms go off 20 feet from my ship. normal torps i can see and react to and if i see torp planes i make sure to adjust course but none of that helps with the 20 feet drops i do not care how skilled you are

Have you ever actually played a CV?

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i would beg to differ, when your torp bombers can drop torps and they appear less than 20 feet from my hull ZERO time to evade or do anything about it. Then its a broken system dying because of something i could not control is frustrating as you would not understand torps i can dodge from dds and most torp plane drops unless its the cvs who do those insane 20 feet away drops that as soon as i see it i just go well im boned

 

This is like saying you want to dodge a sniper rifle's bullet when the shot's been fired and is 3/4ths of the way to you. BBs are not supposed to dodge torpedo bombers.

 

To avoid snipers you need to use cover. The same principles apply in WoWS, only the particulars change.

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True, it takes long and whatnot. And yet CV still rack up an insane amount of damage and kills per game compared to other ships. So, uh. What now?

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True, it takes long and whatnot. And yet CV still rack up an insane amount of damage and kills per game compared to other ships. So, uh. What now?

 

Difference between factions.  IJN have a faster TB cycle time, their planes are faster then US planes, and they get more squadrons with superior torpedo's.  So it is not an issue with CV balance per say just that IJN CV's have a greater anti-ship capability while US CV's have a stronger anti-aircraft capability.  The damage your seeing is more than likely from IJN CV's.  They could use a little balancing since they are newer than the US CV line.

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True, it takes long and whatnot. And yet CV still rack up an insane amount of damage and kills per game compared to other ships. So, uh. What now?

Can you show me the numbers to back up that claim?

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Difference between factions.  IJN have a faster TB cycle time, their planes are faster then US planes, and they get more squadrons with superior torpedo's.  So it is not an issue with CV balance per say just that IJN CV's have a greater anti-ship capability while US CV's have a stronger anti-aircraft capability.  The damage your seeing is more than likely from IJN CV's.  They could use a little balancing since they are newer than the US CV line.

 

Slow down there. USN CVs actually get the more powerful torps with tighter spreads, so 'superior' is a bit subjective. Also, USN fighters of the same tier are much faster than IJN bombers generally, and stronger than IJN fighters (which can be faster but they drop like flies).

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Slow down there. USN CVs actually get the more powerful torps with tighter spreads, so 'superior' is a bit subjective. Also, USN fighters of the same tier are much faster than IJN bombers generally, and stronger than IJN fighters (which can be faster but they drop like flies).

 

I believe that IJN have a looser spread, not tighter.  But their torps do do significantly more damage.

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I believe that IJN have a looser spread, not tighter.  But their torps do do significantly more damage.

 

Yes. USN get the tighter spread. But they also do more damage per torp. Go in game and check out the CV trees. IJN max out at 8.5k damage (so it's actually an indirect nerf as you climb the IJN CV lines and ships get more health and better torp armor). Now USN CVs... The langley starts out doing about 6k damage per torp, but it's upgradable to the 8.5k IJN equivalent, and the independence is doing 10k per torp.

 

Now, for reference, torpedoes from a tier X destroyer can do 25k damage per hit.

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it's only an issue in the lower tiers.  I guarantee that if people could shoot as many planes down as they do in the upper tiers, they wouldn't care so much.  Anvil and Hammer took away the only real counter we had in the lower tiers.  I'd say hang in groups, but the AA is so pathetic at those tiers that even 3 ships with overlapping fire can barely take down a single plane.

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it's only an issue in the lower tiers.  I guarantee that if people could shoot as many planes down as they do in the upper tiers, they wouldn't care so much.  Anvil and Hammer took away the only real counter we had in the lower tiers.  I'd say hang in groups, but the AA is so pathetic at those tiers that even 3 ships with overlapping fire can barely take down a single plane.

 

Yuubaris eat planes for breakfast. Some of the upgraded hulls on other ships have OKish AA (T4 planes die easy...)

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no point in evading when they appear and alarms go off 20 feet from my ship. normal torps i can see and react to and if i see torp planes i make sure to adjust course but none of that helps with the 20 feet drops i do not care how skilled you are

 

Exactly. when I noticed TBs incoming on my ship I start to turn into the planes but it doesn't matter cause as soon as I commit to that turn the TBs quickly change course and I still eat a lot of fishies cause my ship can't turn as fast as the planes. 
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Exactly. when I noticed TBs incoming on my ship I start to turn into the planes but it doesn't matter cause as soon as I commit to that turn the TBs quickly change course and I still eat a lot of fishies cause my ship can't turn as fast as the planes. 

 

BBs aren't supposed to evade (although it can buy you some time); you must use AA tactics.

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So...people have been complaining about CV's and their ability to manual TB's to get solid hits on a ship...even on a rare occasion hit a DD.  But most of the people saying CV's are OP do not play a CV.  So here it is, lets take a simple case, the US carrier Langly with her single squadron of TB's.

 

We will start the run against a target by rearming the planes.  This takes 45 seconds.  (Note I have some skills so this time is lower then stock)

We will then launch the planes...here is another 10-12 seconds.

The planes are in the air...depending on distance to target we are in the air for 60 seconds to get into position...longer or less depending on where the target is.

Then once in a descent position we observe a little and start laying out where we need to put the planes so they can start their 2km run up for the drop.  More time.

If the target maneuvers, we need to anticipate this and adjust...more time.

Then the commit, the planes are doing the run...the torps drop and if all is well the targets takes a few to the side.

The planes then fly back for another 60 seconds.

Then they land...this takes 10-20 seconds.

 

By the time it is all said and done, that single torpedo run, with six torpedo's from the Langly has taken 3 minutes and forty seconds.  Three minutes and forty seconds to potentially land no torpedo's at all.  Now Dive bombers are faster and rearm faster...but they do far less damage.  This is why there have been some talk about the developers implementing AP bombs.

 

But Carriers are in no way OP...at least not the US side.  The IJN side get more squadrons, but fewer planes each.  So they can get their planes out faster, but run the risk of missing more as they have a wider gap between torps.  Honestly I would like to be able to arm my fighters with 5" rockets so they can do attack runs on cruisers and DD's.  But that may not happen.

 

Any way...carriers are not OP if you consider how much time and effort go into a solid strike.  We do not get the ability to span shells every 6-10 seconds like a cruiser.  We do not get to spam torps like a DD.  And we do not get the big punch of a BB...when the shells hit.  We pick our targets more like a sniper...stalk them then do our best to make sure they die in one hit.

 

Im sorry but the i have to aim defence doesn't work if you have ever played BB you will know that you can aim all you want and still miss due to horrible RNG... At least when you fire your shots go pretty much straight..
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Im sorry but the i have to aim defence doesn't work if you have ever played BB you will know that you can aim all you want and still miss due to horrible RNG... At least when you fire your shots go pretty much straight..

 

This is true, but would you be willing to have accurate BB guns if it meant 4 or 5 minute reloads? That's basically what keeps carrier strikes in check.

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Im sorry but the i have to aim defence doesn't work if you have ever played BB you will know that you can aim all you want and still miss due to horrible RNG... At least when you fire your shots go pretty much straight..

 

All of the shots go straight.  Once your rounds are fired thy are on a simple ballistic trajectory that does not change.  That arcing you may see is an optical illusion based on your relative motion to the shells as you both move in different directions.  Sorry man, there are no homing rounds in this game.

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Yuubaris eat planes for breakfast. Some of the upgraded hulls on other ships have OKish AA (T4 planes die easy...)

 

Yah, ONE ship out of how many? 

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I don't care about how much effort it is to set up a well aimed torp run. I also don't care how much multitasking CV drivers have to do. I've played CV's up to tier X.

 

What I do care about is the kill ratio I'm seeing with high tier CV's, and the delusional jism I see in regards to saying 'this is OK - just learn to avoid torps'.  If CV's were averaging 1-1.5 kills per game I could care less if they shot guided cruise missles because at least then the vehicle meta would be fair. Right now high tier CV's are raping BB's at will, and the likely response from Wargaming will be the typical tactical nuke for a nerf that will resort in another meta imbalance.

 

CV drivers are creating the seeds of their own destruction....I just don't get why some of them seem smart enough to better. Live in denial folks - not my problem.

Edited by Scotty_SE
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i would beg to differ, when your torp bombers can drop torps and they appear less than 20 feet from my hull ZERO time to evade or do anything about it. Then its a broken system dying because of something i could not control is frustrating as you would not understand torps i can dodge from dds and most torp plane drops unless its the cvs who do those insane 20 feet away drops that as soon as i see it i just go well im boned

As I tell all new players as you most be one with this response. That if you wait for the TBs to drop thier torps to start your turn you are dead and should be every time. You need to be proactive and turn before they even drop manual TB drops are not OP the use of the mini-map right is OP.

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This is true, but would you be willing to have accurate BB guns if it meant 4 or 5 minute reloads? That's basically what keeps carrier strikes in check.

 

Hey but on the upside you essentially get an alpha strike that will KO any ship in the game... or cripple it so bad its going to be almost useless in a fight

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