Carrier Torp nerfs

[ADaringEnchilada]

In the current state of the game, TPBs are insanely powerful. On their own, it is possible to dodge a volley, if you're in a cruiser or destroyer and the carrier captain is new and doesn't know how to manually adjust the torp path. However, when carriers have 2-3 torp squadrons, I'm noticing a lot of cases where a carrier with any sense can OHKO an enemy ship absolutely every single time by dropping torps within 1km in a triangle around the ship, so that no turning nor reaction time could save them. Additionally, torp bombers are able to close into to ridiculous ranges on BBs and drop broadside volleys that can instantly cripple or kill BBs up to several tiers above the carrier, with minimal to no skill. The BBs stand no chance to dodge these volleys as they are dropped point blank and any maneuvering before the volley is launched is pointless, meanwhile the BB needs to maintain fire against the enemy and try to avoid being hit as well. 

 

As a result, I think TPBs need to have a minimum launching range of 1-2km to prevent instant kills, or at the very least severely punish volleys launched closer much like the scattering AA bonus. Realistically, one wouldn't see TPBs rushing into a single kilometer and dropping a volley without suffering incredible losses, whereas currently a BB is lucky to take out one plane in the short span of time that TPBs are in range of their AA. I think it's a good idea to punish TPB squadrons who are receiving the smaller AA fire at close range by drastically altering their torpedo volley's pathing to result in worse spread and torpedos missing. This will result in smarter play by carriers, as with AA buffs they will have to play more carefully to avoid AA at all times up until the planes have already launched their torps, and additionally they will have to go for BBs or other ships who are in channels or a position that doesn't allow them to maneuver away from the torps rather than relying on a 5 second travel time to instantly kill an enemy ship. This will make carriers have to behave more like destroyers, in that they can't simply fire from 1-2km and guarantee a kill without risking being immediately killed or crippled by secondary and primary fire.

[AADABOY]

there is already a min arming distance for the torps

[Admiral_Matzerg]

While i am not a tester, or player, i do watch a lot of WOWS videos, perticularely BBs, (because i love watching those yamatos, iowas, and whatnot) and the common mistake when they die because of torpedo planes is tunnel vision. You need to keep your awareness of your surroundings, and turn your ship so that the nose is pointing towards these torpedo planes, so that they can't shoot you easely. 

 

Now of course, theres the problem of the torpedo planes double-teaming you and forcing you to take some damage, however, as a good battleship, your job is to have a few cruisers around you so that these planes are more recluant to comming near you. Wether you follow the cruisers, or the cruisers follow you, doesn't matter. All that matters is that you get those cruisers around you so that their good anti-air takes care of those planes for you. Following these two simple tricks, torpedo planes shouldn't be a problem anymore. They might still shoot torpedoes at you and your battlegroup, but in these cases, only 1-2 torpedoes will come, and taking that id much more reasoneable than taking 5 or 6 per squadron attack.

[Carrier_Ikoma]

It would be kinda cool if we got stealthy planes that could only do long range drops.

[ADaringEnchilada]

there is already a min arming distance for the torps

 

There may be a minimum arming distance, however it's much closer to .3 or .6km which is too close. It's the same as destroyers it seems, and any torp launched in that range is a guaranteed kill no matter what, which for a destroyer is usually fine because getting in that range usually results in a quick death. However TPBs have no such risk, and may only lose 1-2 planes while dropping torps at that range. As a result TPBs are so much stronger than destroyers, to the point of being overpowered. Most tactical doctrine I've seen dictated that torps are to be dropped from 1-2km out, and even then many squadrons failed to do so together as AA scattered planes and forced each pilot to fight for himself.

[Carrier_Ikoma]

 

There may be a minimum arming distance, however it's much closer to .3 or .6km which is too close. It's the same as destroyers it seems, and any torp launched in that range is a guaranteed kill no matter what, which for a destroyer is usually fine because getting in that range usually results in a quick death. However TPBs have no such risk, and may only lose 1-2 planes while dropping torps at that range. As a result TPBs are so much stronger than destroyers, to the point of being overpowered. Most tactical doctrine I've seen dictated that torps are to be dropped from 1-2km out, and even then many squadrons failed to do so together as AA scattered planes and forced each pilot to fight for himself.

 

Ehm... BBs and cruisers should be working together, and the latter do get an ability that scatters planes even.

 

I do kinda agree about DDs though. I can hit DDs with air torps pretty reliable and since we're mostly meant to be anti BB (who have torpedo armor and lots of HP), it feels a bit unfair that I can (most of the time) reliably eliminate a DD with weapons intended for bigger ships.

[ADaringEnchilada]

While i am not a tester, or player, i do watch a lot of WOWS videos, perticularely BBs, (because i love watching those yamatos, iowas, and whatnot) and the common mistake when they die because of torpedo planes is tunnel vision. You need to keep your awareness of your surroundings, and turn your ship so that the nose is pointing towards these torpedo planes, so that they can't shoot you easely. 

 

Now of course, theres the problem of the torpedo planes double-teaming you and forcing you to take some damage, however, as a good battleship, your job is to have a few cruisers around you so that these planes are more recluant to comming near you. Wether you follow the cruisers, or the cruisers follow you, doesn't matter. All that matters is that you get those cruisers around you so that their good anti-air takes care of those planes for you. Following these two simple tricks, torpedo planes shouldn't be a problem anymore. They might still shoot torpedoes at you and your battlegroup, but in these cases, only 1-2 torpedoes will come, and taking that id much more reasoneable than taking 5 or 6 per squadron attack.

Because BBs are so slow, the only way to reliable keep cruisers with you is to start a division or follow them and hope they don't all die before you get into range. This game is a lot like WoT, in that most people seem to be very lone wolf and very stupid when it comes to team efforts. As a result, being a BB that's constantly targeted by CVs and DDs is very difficult. Even with CAs surrounding you, TPBs will still come and wreck you by doing runs that drop torps between you and the CAs around you. Your only hope is that AA isn't worthless like it is 75% of the time, and that you have 2+ CAs around so that maybe one torp squadron dies. But it's never on squadron, CVs generally focus down ships with 2-3 TPBs and whatever DVBs they have.

 

The result is that, while team play is a good solution, it's not a reliable one. Ideally TPBs should be torping from a range that is closer than say a destroyer, so 2-4km, but not reliably hitting. Where as most destroyers that rely on torps for damage launch from 6-10km, and never guarantee a hit, are still powerful when played correctly. Currently, it feels as though if you're in a BB, no matter what you do if there are 2-3 TPBs you're screwed.

 

[Carrier_Ikoma]

Because BBs are so slow, the only way to reliable keep cruisers with you is to start a division or follow them and hope they don't all die before you get into range. This game is a lot like WoT, in that most people seem to be very lone wolf and very stupid when it comes to team efforts. As a result, being a BB that's constantly targeted by CVs and DDs is very difficult. Even with CAs surrounding you, TPBs will still come and wreck you by doing runs that drop torps between you and the CAs around you. Your only hope is that AA isn't worthless like it is 75% of the time, and that you have 2+ CAs around so that maybe one torp squadron dies. But it's never on squadron, CVs generally focus down ships with 2-3 TPBs and whatever DVBs they have.

 

The result is that, while team play is a good solution, it's not a reliable one. Ideally TPBs should be torping from a range that is closer than say a destroyer, so 2-4km, but not reliably hitting. Where as most destroyers that rely on torps for damage launch from 6-10km, and never guarantee a hit, are still powerful when played correctly. Currently, it feels as though if you're in a BB, no matter what you do if there are 2-3 TPBs you're screwed.

 

 

Have you tried explaining the situation in match chat? I've had a lot of success in asking for AA cover from the enemy CV or other kinds of support (be nice though, everyone ignores the people calling their teammates stupid and stuff). I've also seen BBs doing it and pretty much always getting an answer.

[Admiral_Matzerg]

Since i am no beta tester, i can't reliably say that this or that will work, but the solution is there, i guess those people who prefer being a lone wolf don't wuite get that WOWS is a game that's focused around team play. In the meantime, i think playing in a division with a few friends is the best solution. And if you have no one who can fill that role, well, making new friends shouldn't be too complicated. Not remplacing them, that's not what i mean, but getting ones that play at different hours so that you can reliably always have someone ready to be your cruiser escort/have a big intimidating battleship play as his big brother of the high sea.

[Carrier_Ikoma]

Since i am no beta tester, i can't reliably say that this or that will work, but the solution is there, i guess those people who prefer being a lone wolf don't wuite get that WOWS is a game that's focused around team play. In the meantime, i think playing in a division with a few friends is the best solution. And if you have no one who can fill that role, well, making new friends shouldn't be too complicated. Not remplacing them, that's not what i mean, but getting ones that play at different hours so that you can reliably always have someone ready to be your cruiser escort/have a big intimidating battleship play as his big brother of the high sea.

 

There's actually a really good CV player that posts a bit to the closed beta area of the forum. He's alluded to div'ing with 2 BBs, and once parked on a cap point, those 2 BBs apparently demolish just about anything that try to take it.

 

There's also been posts here and there about BBs doing 100k or even 160k+ damage! It seems they're very powerful ships in capable hands. When I play on cruiser I always avoid going up against them head on, anyways.

[Killer1941]

Jesus another Nerf Carriers thread? Guess I will use the same old tips. Sail towards them, and always sail with cruisers for some AA coverage. If they drop them from multiple angles then take your death and move on. 

[Admiral_Matzerg]

 

There's actually a really good CV player that posts a bit to the closed beta area of the forum. He's alluded to div'ing with 2 BBs, and once parked on a cap point, those 2 BBs apparently demolish just about anything that try to take it.

 

There's also been posts here and there about BBs doing 100 or even 160k+ damage! It seems they're very powerful ships in capable hands. When I play on cruiser I always avoid going up against them head on, anyways.

That's nice to hear! I don't know what tier those BBs were, but i will take a light guess and say they were Iowas, or anything high tier that's a battleship with good anti aircraft, these things, while not being cruisers, sure do know hwo to give a good scare to a plane squadron. Combined with a CV player that knows what he's doing, i'm not going to doubt that these BBs went EXTERMINATUS on anything comming near, hehe.

[Numbah18]

That's nice to hear! I don't know what tier those BBs were, but i will take a light guess and say they were Iowas, or anything high tier that's a battleship with good anti aircraft, these things, while not being cruisers, sure do know hwo to give a good scare to a plane squadron. Combined with a CV player that knows what he's doing, i'm not going to doubt that these BBs went EXTERMINATUS on anything comming near, hehe.

 

By the Emperors Will. Something like this would have to be a nightmare to deal with that's for sure.

[Piper_VGL]

there is already a min arming distance for the torps

 

+1 for signature

[WoodWard_Wilson]

In the current state of the game, TPBs are insanely powerful. On their own, it is possible to dodge a volley, if you're in a cruiser or destroyer and the carrier captain is new and doesn't know how to manually adjust the torp path. However, when carriers have 2-3 torp squadrons, I'm noticing a lot of cases where a carrier with any sense can OHKO an enemy ship absolutely every single time by dropping torps within 1km in a triangle around the ship, so that no turning nor reaction time could save them. Additionally, torp bombers are able to close into to ridiculous ranges on BBs and drop broadside volleys that can instantly cripple or kill BBs up to several tiers above the carrier, with minimal to no skill. The BBs stand no chance to dodge these volleys as they are dropped point blank and any maneuvering before the volley is launched is pointless, meanwhile the BB needs to maintain fire against the enemy and try to avoid being hit as well.

 

As a result, I think TPBs need to have a minimum launching range of 1-2km to prevent instant kills, or at the very least severely punish volleys launched closer much like the scattering AA bonus. Realistically, one wouldn't see TPBs rushing into a single kilometer and dropping a volley without suffering incredible losses, whereas currently a BB is lucky to take out one plane in the short span of time that TPBs are in range of their AA. I think it's a good idea to punish TPB squadrons who are receiving the smaller AA fire at close range by drastically altering their torpedo volley's pathing to result in worse spread and torpedos missing. This will result in smarter play by carriers, as with AA buffs they will have to play more carefully to avoid AA at all times up until the planes have already launched their torps, and additionally they will have to go for BBs or other ships who are in channels or a position that doesn't allow them to maneuver away from the torps rather than relying on a 5 second travel time to instantly kill an enemy ship. This will make carriers have to behave more like destroyers, in that they can't simply fire from 1-2km and guarantee a kill without risking being immediately killed or crippled by secondary and primary fire.

 

Maybe you should try playing carriers first, because you obviously haven't. It takes a lot of skill to pull of the drops your crying about, and though you probably haven't noticed this because you don't play them but CV's have received a Nerf in every patch since 0.3.1 came out, first USN CV's lost their 2nd TB squad, then IJN TB's had their spread increased, then we had our Torpedo bombing run time lengthened, and now, your still crying, because you don't understand that us CV's are extremely lucky when we pull off a spread like you say, because wargaming nerfs us every patch. And while we have received some buffs, such as USN TB's do more damage now, its undeniably the hardest class in the game to master, their is a very large learning curve to them, so quit your [edited], and learn to respect and appreciate other players who against all odds can still [edited]your crapup.

[Admiral_Of_The_Fleet]

@ADaringEnchilada

 

old up a bit sonny jim, I am on line all night please take your pick ill team up with you, just about to get the big tier x carrier 

[Numbah18]

Maybe you should try playing carriers first, because you obviously haven't. It takes a lot of skill to pull of the drops your crying about, and though you probably haven't noticed this because you don't play them but CV's have received a Nerf in every patch since 0.3.1 came out, first USN CV's lost their 2nd TB squad, then IJN TB's had their spread increased, then we had our Torpedo bombing run time lengthened, and now, your still crying, because you don't understand that us CV's are extremely lucky when we pull off a spread like you say, because wargaming nerfs us every patch. And while we have received some buffs, such as USN TB's do more damage now, its undeniably the hardest class in the game to master, their is a very large learning curve to them, so quit your [edited], and learn to respect and appreciate other players who against all odds can still [edited]your crapup.

 

I will agree with almost all of this. Most people don't play a class or only play a few games then yell OP

[Jakob_Knight]

 

Ehm... BBs and cruisers should be working together, and the latter do get an ability that scatters planes even.

 

I do kinda agree about DDs though. I can hit DDs with air torps pretty reliable and since we're mostly meant to be anti BB (who have torpedo armor and lots of HP), it feels a bit unfair that I can (most of the time) reliably eliminate a DD with weapons intended for bigger ships.

 

 

Indeed.  Carriers do have the distinction of having the only weapons that almost assured of hitting the target and doing heavy damage in the form of the Dive Bomber.  Lost my DD in one match today before I could engage the enemy to two squadrons of these hitting my DD while it was at full speed, evading, with smoke.  Torpedo bombers are just as deadly now with the manual drops that leave little or no chance to evade due to condensed spread and low spotting time.  The later can be avoided somewhat by being aware of when they are going to attack, but there is little or nothing that can be done about the former.

 

 

Now, if cruiser AA had the ability to destroy the waves of bombers before they could attack, or even before they could disengage afterwards, this might not be as much of a problem.  The issue is that the role of Cruisers in air defense is compromised by the ability of planes to absorb AA fire long enough to ignore Cruisers attempting to cover other ships, deliver their almost-certain kill attack, and withdraw without significant loss.  This effectively means a carrier captain who does not have a team that is completely incompetent will generally achieve a high kill score out of proportion to their place on the team (i.e. one Carrier will be able to account for multiple enemy Battleships, Cruisers, and Destroyers, winning the battle of attrition).

 

 

Two final notes.  In almost every battle I have been in, the side with a one-carrier advantage -always- won, usually by a significant margin.  This is probably the single best indicator Carriers are out of where they should be in a game where they can strike across the battlesea without risk.  Second note, be wary of using YouTube videos for analysis, as many of those are out of date.  The last patch changed Carrier operations, and videos produced prior to this point do not show their current effectiveness.  At the same time, be aware that the next patch will produce similar swings in balance, though I have no idea which way it will go.

 

 

My two cents (and yes, I do play carriers as well).

[Admiral_Matzerg]

@ADaringEnchilada

 

old up a bit sonny jim, I am on line all night please take your pick ill team up with you, just about to get the big tier x carrier 

 

That's a sweet pirate flag. I gotta get me one of those when this game goes OBT/When it comes out

[Carrier_Ikoma]

 

 

Indeed.  Carriers do have the distinction of having the only weapons that almost assured of hitting the target and doing heavy damage in the form of the Dive Bomber.  Lost my DD in one match today before I could engage the enemy to two squadrons of these hitting my DD while it was at full speed, evading, with smoke.  Torpedo bombers are just as deadly now with the manual drops that leave little or no chance to evade due to condensed spread and low spotting time.  The later can be avoided somewhat by being aware of when they are going to attack, but there is little or nothing that can be done about the former.

 

 

Now, if cruiser AA had the ability to destroy the waves of bombers before they could attack, or even before they could disengage afterwards, this might not be as much of a problem.  The issue is that the role of Cruisers in air defense is compromised by the ability of planes to absorb AA fire long enough to ignore Cruisers attempting to cover other ships, deliver their almost-certain kill attack, and withdraw without significant loss.  This effectively means a carrier captain who does not have a team that is completely incompetent will generally achieve a high kill score out of proportion to their place on the team (i.e. one Carrier will be able to account for multiple enemy Battleships, Cruisers, and Destroyers, winning the battle of attrition).

 

 

Two final notes.  In almost every battle I have been in, the side with a one-carrier advantage -always- won, usually by a significant margin.  This is probably the single best indicator Carriers are out of where they should be in a game where they can strike across the battlesea without risk.  Second note, be wary of using YouTube videos for analysis, as many of those are out of date.  The last patch changed Carrier operations, and videos produced prior to this point do not show their current effectiveness.  At the same time, be aware that the next patch will produce similar swings in balance, though I have no idea which way it will go.

 

 

My two cents (and yes, I do play carriers as well).

 

Well, a crucial part of cruiser's kit is the barrage ability. Yes, they don't instademolish squads, but barrage's ability to scatter planes means they can't drop effectively and increases the cruiser's DPS on the planes. So if dropped with barrage up, the planes' ordnance won't be effective. Focus'd AA or overlapping AA from several ships then will quickly kill scores of planes.

 

The bigger issue is that, in their role as the most frontline ship and semi-scouts, DDs are often away from cruisers. Unlike BBs, they can't really ask for a cruiser escort since they're relying on stealth.

 

Also, the spreads are wide enough that no DD is going to get hit (unless they're monumentally stupid) by a single TB squad. They can fit between my torpedos broadside The problem is what the original poster alluded to: triangle/multiangle drops. With 3 squads all at different angles... Yes, there's not really much the DD can do.

 

 

Maybe you should try playing carriers first, because you obviously haven't. It takes a lot of skill to pull of the drops your crying about, and though you probably haven't noticed this because you don't play them but CV's have received a Nerf in every patch since 0.3.1 came out, first USN CV's lost their 2nd TB squad, then IJN TB's had their spread increased, then we had our Torpedo bombing run time lengthened, and now, your still crying, because you don't understand that us CV's are extremely lucky when we pull off a spread like you say, because wargaming nerfs us every patch. And while we have received some buffs, such as USN TB's do more damage now, its undeniably the hardest class in the game to master, their is a very large learning curve to them, so quit your [edited], and learn to respect and appreciate other players who against all odds can still [edited]your crapup.

 

Don't forget the IJN torpedo nerfs.

 

But anyways... WG has said statistics will be the ultimate arbiters of balance. If ships are dying under AA protection, expect cruiser AA to be buffed (like it just was today XD). If BBs are underperforming, they will be buffed too. And, yes, if CVs are overperforming, there might be further nerfs coming down the line. Hopefully all classes involved will stay fun, though.

 

[Jakob_Knight]

 

Well, a crucial part of cruiser's kit is the barrage ability. Yes, they don't instademolish squads, but barrage's ability to scatter planes means they can't drop effectively and increases the cruiser's DPS on the planes. So if dropped with barrage up, the planes' ordnance won't be effective. Focus'd AA or overlapping AA from several ships then will quickly kill scores of planes.

 

The bigger issue is that, in their role as the most frontline ship and semi-scouts, DDs are often away from cruisers. Unlike BBs, they can't really ask for a cruiser escort since they're relying on stealth.

 

Also, the spreads are wide enough that no DD is going to get hit (unless they're monumentally stupid) by a single TB squad. They can fit between my torpedos broadside The problem is what the original poster alluded to: triangle/multiangle drops. With 3 squads all at different angles... Yes, there's not really much the DD can do.

 

 

Don't forget the IJN torpedo nerfs.

 

But anyways... WG has said statistics will be the ultimate arbiters of balance. If ships are dying under AA protection, expect cruiser AA to be buffed (like it just was today XD). If BBs are underperforming, they will be buffed too. And, yes, if CVs are overperforming, there might be further nerfs coming down the line. Hopefully all classes involved will stay fun, though.

 

 

True.  And, I -do- want Carriers to be effective in the game, but not so decisive that they sunset all other classes.  If the DD were intended to be the anti-CV counter in the game, then it wouldn't be a problem if the attack craft from a carrier faced severe penalties attacking them rather than being the class that kills DDs better than even CAs.  As it stands now, I don't see any effective counter to CVs except another CV, which explains the effect on the battle when one side has an advantage in numbers of Carriers (can't think of any instance where one side having one more BB, CA, or DD has this drastic an effect).  Incidentally, where are the various class abilities defined?  I thought the Barrage ability only allowed your Secondary batteries to augment your AA rating, not have any kind of dispersion effect.  There seems to be no source in-game for people to know what each ability does, other than observation and trial-and-error.

 

I also believe the AA buff was in the notes for Test Server, and has not gone live.  I could be wrong, since the patch notes are very hard to find, but that was my understanding of the notes I read.  Once the changes go Live, we will have to see how the game changes, as the entire modification system will alter the game quite a bit from what we see now.

[Carrier_Ikoma]

 

True.  And, I -do- want Carriers to be effective in the game, but not so decisive that they sunset all other classes.  If the DD were intended to be the anti-CV counter in the game, then it wouldn't be a problem if the attack craft from a carrier faced severe penalties attacking them rather than being the class that kills DDs better than even CAs.  As it stands now, I don't see any effective counter to CVs except another CV, which explains the effect on the battle when one side has an advantage in numbers of Carriers (can't think of any instance where one side having one more BB, CA, or DD has this drastic an effect).

I also believe the AA buff was in the notes for Test Server, and has not gone live.  I could be wrong, since the patch notes are very hard to find, but that was my understanding of the notes I read.  Once the changes go Live, we will have to see how the game changes, as the entire modification system will alter the game quite a bit from what we see now.

 

Actually, DDs are one of the intended counters to CVs. And if they can sneak up on one and torp attack, bye bye CV.

 

But if a CV really decides "I want that DD dead," it's going to die. If the CV captain can drop decently... when I play DD or Cruiser, it seems like a lot of them just don't even try to cross torpedo angles

[Jakob_Knight]

 

Actually, DDs are one of the intended counters to CVs. And if they can sneak up on one and torp attack, bye bye CV.

 

But if a CV really decides "I want that DD dead," it's going to die. If the CV captain can drop decently... when I play DD or Cruiser, it seems like a lot of them just don't even try to cross torpedo angles

 

 

Heh.  Of course, the problem with sneaking up on a CV is that the best spotters of DDs in the game are....CV planes.

[Numbah18]

Heh.  Of course, the problem with sneaking up on a CV is that the best spotters of DDs in the game are....CV planes.

 

Wouldn't that fall under the detection skill being the best spotter? If you can even slightly see me I know you are near then all I have to do is go look for you.

[Carrier_Ikoma]

 

 

Heh.  Of course, the problem with sneaking up on a CV is that the best spotters of DDs in the game are....CV planes.

 

 

 

Heh.  Of course, the problem with sneaking up on a CV is that the best spotters of DDs in the game are....CV planes.

 

Yup yup.

 

So, to me, it seems like the bigger issue is CV vs DD instead of CV vs BB.

 

On the upside, DDs got (or are getting) an AA buff so we can't just AFK planes over them anymore.