Midway and Essex Class vs the Unryu and Ikoma

[Freecloud]

I was wondering what the community thought concerning the Midway and Essex class if they fought against the Unryu and the Ikoma class - the supposed replacements for the lost carriers at Midway. I think this is a logical comparison since these respective carriers were meant to be mass-produced to replenish / modernize the carrier fleets of each country.

 

I'm not adding the Shinano since it was a bit of the odd fish in this carrier group since it was supposed to be the third Yamato.  In this hypothetical fight, the IJN should be in tip-top condition, so no kamikaze pilots. 

[Takeda992]

Isn't Unryuu a bit too weak against essex? they were streamlined Hiryuu's if I remember correctly.

[Windhover118]

I was wondering what the community thought concerning the Midway and Essex class if they fought against the Unryu and the Ikoma class - the supposed replacements for the lost carriers at Midway. I think this is a logical comparison since these respective carriers were meant to be mass-produced to replenish / modernize the carrier fleets of each country.

 

I'm not adding the Shinano since it was a bit of the odd fish in this carrier group since it was supposed to be the third Yamato.  In this hypothetical fight, the IJN should be in tip-top condition, so no kamikaze pilots. 

 

Essex Class is clearly superior. The Essex Class had much longer legs and thus doesn't have to refuel as often. More importantly though, it carried between 30 and 40 more planes than the Unryu Class. The Essex Class carrier group is also made up of the best naval aircraft available at the time while the Japanese would still be using their early war planes. 

[Freecloud]

Isn't Unryuu a bit too weak against essex? they were streamlined Hiryuu's if I remember correctly.

 

 

Essex Class is clearly superior. The Essex Class had much longer legs and thus doesn't have to refuel as often. More importantly though, it carried between 30 and 40 more planes than the Unryu Class. The Essex Class carrier group is also made up of the best naval aircraft available at the time while the Japanese would still be using their early war planes. 

 

Yeah...I think the IJN just wanted some quick aircraft carriers, so they just based it off what they thought was the best overall design of their previous batch.  My guess that the Essex would probably beat the Ikoma as well since it's even more stripped down than the Unryuu...

 

Still...it would've been interesting to see the Essex and Midway in actual combat a la Battle of Midway instead of picking off the remnants of the IJN and avoiding kamikaze pilots...for historical curiosity .

[Beefy_McAwesomesauce]

 

Essex Class is clearly superior. The Essex Class had much longer legs and thus doesn't have to refuel as often. More importantly though, it carried between 30 and 40 more planes than the Unryu Class. The Essex Class carrier group is also made up of the best naval aircraft available at the time while the Japanese would still be using their early war planes. 

The Japanese did start fielding some decent aircraft at the end of the war, they just never made enough of them to matter. I assume by him saying the IJN would be "in tip top shape" that would include them fielding their advanced aircraft.

 

This is of course a hypothetical scenario, and even if they had fielded those carriers and the aircraft, it still wouldn't have made a substantial difference.

[Freecloud]

The Japanese did start fielding some decent aircraft at the end of the war, they just never made enough of them to matter. I assume by him saying the IJN would be "in tip top shape" that would include them fielding their advanced aircraft.

 

This is of course a hypothetical scenario, and even if they had fielded those carriers and the aircraft, it still wouldn't have made a substantial difference.

 

Aye.  Tip top shape meant the IJN at their peak of power.  In regards to the actual front, the US probably could've beaten the IJN with sheer numbers since the US had better production rates than the Japanese...

 

That's like discussing Germany and the Me 262 if the Luftwaffe still had good pilots .

[Windhover118]

 

 

Yeah...I think the IJN just wanted some quick aircraft carriers, so they just based it off what they thought was the best overall design of their previous batch.  My guess that the Essex would probably beat the Ikoma as well since it's even more stripped down than the Unryuu...

 

Still...it would've been interesting to see the Essex and Midway in actual combat a la Battle of Midway instead of picking off the remnants of the IJN and avoiding kamikaze pilots...for historical curiosity .

 

We can only assume that the Essex Class would have performed just as well as the Yorktown Class, probably better since the Essex class was meant to be the culmination of lessons learned from the Ranger, Lexington and Yorktown Classes. The Midway would probably be even better since it was the first American Carriers to have an armored flight deck. 

[Freecloud]

 

We can only assume that the Essex Class would have performed just as well as the Yorktown Class, probably better since the Essex class was meant to be the culmination of lessons learned from the Ranger, Lexington and Yorktown Classes. The Midway would probably be even better since it was the first American Carriers to have an armored flight deck. 

 

So...the IJN was still outclassed even if they had the resources to keep churning out the Unryu class like they wanted.  While the Taihou was a failure from a construction standpoint, I wonder if the war might've changed if Japan decided to mass produce the Shinano...as unlikely as that would be historically since that was just a re purposed Yamato hull...

[Beefy_McAwesomesauce]

 

So...the IJN was still outclassed even if they had the resources to keep churning out the Unryu class like they wanted.  While the Taihou was a failure from a construction standpoint, I wonder if the war might've changed if Japan decided to mass produce the Shinano...as unlikely as that would be historically since that was just a re purposed Yamato hull...

Well seeing as the Shinano was sunk as the result of a single torpedo hit, I wouldn't say it would've changed much. And yes, that was largely because the crew had no idea what they were doing, but still.

 

And that's assuming they would've had the sheer resources to mass produce something that massive....

[Windhover118]

 

So...the IJN was still outclassed even if they had the resources to keep churning out the Unryu class like they wanted.  While the Taihou was a failure from a construction standpoint, I wonder if the war might've changed if Japan decided to mass produce the Shinano...as unlikely as that would be historically since that was just a re purposed Yamato hull...

 

The problem with Shinano is that it wasn't meant to be a typical aircraft carrier. Shinano was intended to be a support carrier ferrying airplanes between bases and resupplying the actual fleet carriers. She was basically going to be a massive Escort Carrier like what the allies used. 

[Freecloud]

Well seeing as the Shinano was sunk as the result of a single torpedo hit, I wouldn't say it would've changed much. And yes, that was largely because the crew had no idea what they were doing, but still.

 

And that's assuming they would've had the sheer resources to mass produce something that massive....

 

Yeah...the Shinano was more spur-of-the-moment than anything, it seems.  Most of Japan's experimental carriers seemed to have mechanical / construction problems...

[Freecloud]

 

The problem with Shinano is that it wasn't meant to be a typical aircraft carrier. Shinano was intended to be a support carrier ferrying airplanes between bases and resupplying the actual fleet carriers. She was basically going to be a massive Escort Carrier like what the allies used. 

 

Oh!  Isn't she also considered the first supercarrier?

[Windhover118]

 

Oh!  Isn't she also considered the first supercarrier?

 

Depends on who you ask. The Shinano displaced more than the Midway Class so her size was super. The role that was envisioned for the Shinano was far from super though. 

[Beefy_McAwesomesauce]

 

Yeah...the Shinano was more spur-of-the-moment than anything, it seems.  Most of Japan's experimental carriers seemed to have mechanical / construction problems...

I always assumed that was because they were desperate to try to stem the flow of advanced new US fleet carriers, and as such they tried to rush as many new designs through as they could. I feel like the Japanese needed the attack on Pearl Harbor to wipe out everything the USN had, and they just didn't manage that. The IJN really needed time to establish supply routes, take the remaining US holdings in the Pacific, and solidify their economy. Unfortunately for them, having a large portion of the US fleet still active, including all of the Pacific aircraft carriers, really doomed them.

[Freecloud]

 

Depends on who you ask. The Shinano displaced more than the Midway Class so her size was super. The role that was envisioned for the Shinano was far from super though. 

 

She was super in size...but it seems that everything else was messed up, ranging from the crew to the electrics...

 

 

I always assumed that was because they were desperate to try to stem the flow of advanced new US fleet carriers, and as such they tried to rush as many new designs through as they could. I feel like the Japanese needed the attack on Pearl Harbor to wipe out everything the USN had, and they just didn't manage that. The IJN really needed time to establish supply routes, take the remaining US holdings in the Pacific, and solidify their economy. Unfortunately for them, having a large portion of the US fleet still active, including all of the Pacific aircraft carriers, really doomed them.

 

My guess that the war would've been very different if the carriers were at Pearl Harbor during the attack...

[Dathly]

Yes if the carriers had been at pearl when the attack hit Japan would have controlled the pacific and very well could have wreaked havoc on the west coast.

 

[Beefy_McAwesomesauce]

My guess that the war would've been very different if the carriers were at Pearl Harbor during the attack...

Who knows, it's all what ifs. 

I mean hell, the Japanese were about 2 weeks from using the I-400 class submarines to drop dirty bombs on the US mainland. Imagine how much different things would be then.

[Freecloud]

Yes if the carriers had been at pearl when the attack hit Japan would have controlled the pacific and very well could have wreaked havoc on the west coast.

 

 

I suppose...

 

Then again...Japan decided not to attempt to conquer Hawaii during their attack on Pearl Harbor, eventually retreating after they lost the element of surprise.  Establishing a bulkhead in Hawaii would've probably changed the outlook of the Pacific front...

[Freecloud]

Who knows, it's all what ifs. 

I mean hell, the Japanese were about 2 weeks from using the I-400 class submarines to drop dirty bombs on the US mainland. Imagine how much different things would be then.

 

Man...the I-400 class submarines were impressive since they helped form the backbone for modern-day subs .  I'm sure that could've been the IJN's ticket to changing the tides of war if they were utilized more effectively...

[Beefy_McAwesomesauce]

 

I suppose...

 

Then again...Japan decided not to attempt to conquer Hawaii during their attack on Pearl Harbor, eventually retreating after they lost the element of surprise.  Establishing a bulkhead in Hawaii would've probably changed the outlook of the Pacific front...

That's more because there would have been no way to resupply troops there. And with a large portion of the US fleet still intact, the IJN didn't have the ships to force a landing.

 

Man...the I-400 class submarines were impressive since they helped form the backbone for modern-day subs .  I'm sure that could've been the IJN's ticket to changing the tides of war if they were utilized more effectively...

I don't know about changing the tide of the war, but they certainly could have been responsible for a lot of civilian deaths.

Although I guess if they had managed to knock out the Panama canal, that could have been a game changer.

[Windhover118]

 

She was super in size...but it seems that everything else was messed up, ranging from the crew to the electrics...

 

 

 

My guess that the war would've been very different if the carriers were at Pearl Harbor during the attack...

 

Depends on how hard they got hit. Enterprise would have most likely been sunk and taken months to Salvage since she moored near Battleship row. Lexington usually moored on the other side of Ford Island so she would have been heavily damaged at least. Repairs would take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months. 

 

Saratoga was operating near the West Coast at the time so she wouldn't have been in the harbor anyway. Yorktown, Hornet, Wasp and Ranger were all in the Atlantic. So the United States would still have a shield against the Japanese Navy. That shield would just be much thinner than it was in reality. The Battle of Midway happened 6 months after Pearl Harbor. By that time, we could possibly see Lexington coming back online right when she is needed most. It really just all depends on how badly she was damaged. 

[RedBear87]

So...the IJN was still outclassed even if they had the resources to keep churning out the Unryu class like they wanted.  While the Taihou was a failure from a construction standpoint, I wonder if the war might've changed if Japan decided to mass produce the Shinano...as unlikely as that would be historically since that was just a re purposed Yamato hull...

The Japanese plans called for the "mass production" of Taiho. What was her failure from a construction standpoint anyway? Taiho's sinking was a failure of damage control.

Well seeing as the Shinano was sunk as the result of a single torpedo hit, I wouldn't say it would've changed much. And yes, that was largely because the crew had no idea what they were doing, but still.

It's also said that she didn't have all her watertight doors fitted. Besides not all boilers were online, meaning that her maximum speed was restricted to around 20 knots, making a high speed dash would have been better to avoid the many submarines lurking around Japan...

The problem with Shinano is that it wasn't meant to be a typical aircraft carrier. Shinano was intended to be a support carrier ferrying airplanes between bases and resupplying the actual fleet carriers. She was basically going to be a massive Escort Carrier like what the allies used. 

Shinano was supposed to be a floating air base, breaking away with the Japanese tradition up to that point re-arming and refueling were supposed to take place on the flight deck. Another feature of Shinano that sets her apart from Japanese (and British armoured carriers) were the open sides of the hangar, which allowed to jettison ordnances and planes from the hangar.

Who knows, it's all what ifs. 

I mean hell, the Japanese were about 2 weeks from using the I-400 class submarines to drop dirty bombs on the US mainland. Imagine how much different things would be then.

The I-400 were going to bomb the carriers assembled at Ulithi atoll using kamikaze attacks, nothing of dirty about that, except for the fake US insignia painted on the planes.

Man...the I-400 class submarines were impressive since they helped form the backbone for modern-day subs .

How? Early cruise missile submarines equipped with the Regulus vaguely reminded of the I-400, I doubt any official source acknowledge any direct influence, still it was a dead end.

 

[Takeda992]

Off topic, but regarding the I-400, this is an interesting documentary about it

[Freecloud]

The Japanese plans called for the "mass production" of Taiho. What was her failure from a construction standpoint anyway? Taiho's sinking was a failure of damage control.

 

How? Early cruise missile submarines equipped with the Regulus vaguely reminded of the I-400, I doubt any official source acknowledge any direct influence, still it was a dead end.

 

 

Oh!  I wonder if the war front might've changed greatly if Taiho was mass-produced a la Unryu class?

 

Didn't the I-400 form the basis for the "mega" subs - the bigger subs that later were armed with nuclear missiles?  Not any direct influence per say, but some ideas?

[DV_Currie_VC]

Isn't Unryuu a bit too weak against essex? they were streamlined Hiryuu's if I remember correctly.

Unryu would be much lower tier. The only thing it has over the Essex is its speed.