Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Trophy_Wench

Pan European DD Line Part Deux Take 4: Fixing the Problem

5 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Testers
438 posts
2,562 battles

I haven't been sooper motivated to write lately, especially as I have promised to follow up with my Spanish Cruiser dissertation with a CA branch but alas, that'll have to wait. Because as of today, I got a BIG motivator:

image.thumb.png.12887120eb2a6478293b4ceeb3c53e6b.png

All My Heart Community Outreach on Twitter: "#NationalBodyLanguageDay  Rubbing Your Hands Together Want to show how excited you are about a new  project? Just rub your hands together vigorously. https://t.co/1t2hpoLZAy"  / Twitter

Now I'm not going to regail you with the details as many of you have already seen it (after all, if you actually read the forums you probably read the devblog too) but if not, go read it and weep.

So having said that, what do I, the idiot who keeps making these theorycraft posts about such a 2nd DD line think of this? In truth: I'm conflicted. On the one hand the tiers V-VIII are... actually not bad. Still copypasta mind you (and I'll explain that in greater detail in a moment) but overall these are real steel ships that were really built and really served, though in Split's case, it wasn't completed to it's original design. But tiers IX and X OTOH, are... sus. Granted these tiers were always going to be a yuuuge challenge even for WeeGee to find suitable, well, anything but not impossible but instead they reverted to using what can only be described as a British Capitani Romani- class style ship that maybe, kinda, could've been built and then possibly sold to Greece guys I totally explain it all in my fanfic novel! Guys?... 

And then at tier X we have... a Polish Mogador? Because reasons? 

Nose Pinch GIFs | Tenor

It should come as no surprise for longtime readers that I was/ am very disappointed in the recent announcement of the PanAm cruiser line as well for the same reason; that these were minimal effort, copypasta lines designed to maximize use of existing assets and minimize lead-in time for development. This Pan European DD line by extension appears to pretty much be the same thing. "But Trophy!" you say, "We've never had an S-class DD or Split for that matter in game or this British flotilla leader.. thing they can't show yet so clearly they put more thought into this than the Pan American line!!!" No, no they didn't. Pretty much everything presented here except for the tier IX is made up of reused assets, which is likely the reason they can show us this content at such an early stage in the first place! I actually have a personal theory about why they're doing this: you see, with the loss of Lesta (and the inevitable brain-drain that had caused as the employees there either didn't leave/ couldn't escape Russia) means that much smaller, more dispersed teams in satellite offices now have to pick up the slack for new content development (we're talking the offices in places like Austin and Prague) and because WeeGee is likely also trying to recoup losses of that capital they need content to entice the playerbase with, and they need it quickly, even while they're trying to get their house in order. The end result is stuff like this:

OWqdFcye3hhO2y8twvnLIYOR3Y3dEFFeN14B8CBT.jpg.ebc2f44bbd2e7846ffbd8e338a4cc112.jpg

So what then, about European destroyers? What would I do differently? Well lets theorycraft that shall we? 

The first thing I'm going to do is to simply try and improve the line as is. It is important to remember that the official line is VERY WIP, so my suggestions might not make any sense in the near future, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Also, in order to maintain continuity with the line as is, we'll skip the low tier stuff and start from tier V. Seriously if you want to see my thoughts on low tier ships, go read my Three Part Series and check them out. 

So we start off at tier V and are presented with Muavenet, a Turkish I-class DD and a very sensible start in all honesty.

HyCd9CoMQlC6HbqYdAkOS343s73PCuqFSBMfxbvd.jpg.fed9fa047bc8d9aaa07cb806c0f83b43.jpg

Keeping in mind that this sub branch is going to be more gun focused, a downtiered I-class with one less TT launcher is a perfectly cromulent place to start. Can we do better though? Possibly, as this line is essentially trying to be the DL line for Europe, something based on Ambuscade or Scott could work, despite doubling the torpedo armament. The Portuguese Douro- class would arguably be the best representative:

<i>Vouga </i>1933

 

Next up at tier VI is Norway's time to shine with Stord, and S-Class DD.

MPfI8KoqHjQhlsWeTnfmHvXGr8lhT4njGPfpo4nZ.jpg.ae88fc4777d9a4bf8e4460963177991e.jpg

Nice to finally get some of the WEP destroyers into the game, but I have no doubt this was in fact a reused asset. (Commonwealth/ Dutch DDs anyone?) Regardless, this is again, a perfectly acceptable option to have at tier VI but I think we can find something a bit more interesting. Since this line is looking to have some larger caliber guns than the main "Swedish" line, fitting of their role as DLs we could offer up Yugoslavia's first DL, the Dubrovnik:

<i>Dubrovnik</i> 1932

Armed with 4x1 140mm guns and 2x3 TT of the 21" variety this could be a really good step up, but progression from here to tier VII would be awkard due to the lack of any other ships armed with such guns. Instead we'll try and maintain some of the British flavor and go with one of my favorites, the Vasilefs Georgios I -class:

<i>Vasilefs Georgios I </i>1940

These fascinating ships combined the hull of an H-class DD with German 12.8cm SK C/34 guns, same as on the Z1 and still keeping the same torpedo armament as above with Stord.

 

At tier VII, the sensible, safe bet: Grom.

vdUdLArFcm7yFE6klohq6ZfbMQ75Kpt29vqXg90d.jpg.1bdbaed9a88c254433184dc552429d80.jpg

Lead ship of her class and Błyskawicas sister, if you're going for gun power it's the most straightforward option you can have at this tier and honestly not a bad pick overall. But safe is boring, so lets spice things up a bit and throw in the Alp Arslan-class from Turkey:

<i>Alp Arslan </i>1965

 

Essentially just a Lightening but with half of it's TTs taken away, it should be a good fit to drop down to tier VII. Alternatively, we could go with something really left field: 

<i>Georgi Dimitrov</i> 1950

This is Bulgarian DD Georgi Dimitrov, an Ognevoi-class DD that Bulgaria acquired after WWII and was it's second, and last destroyer ever. Making up in caliber what we lack in barrels, we have the same 2x2 130mm guns that the Soviet tier VIII gets and still the same torpedo count as Grom, 2x3. With this ship, we're still able to maintain that heavier gun progression from tier VI as we make our way up to VIII with:

ibNzdX2uoOXlpoVJhlPI9XOacC4aZkadPOclFhtc.jpg.ba0dd5a3fd2dfda8be266404cf6cd43e.jpg

This is Split as she was originally meant to be completed, with 5x1 140mm guns and still 2x3 TTs, it would have been an impressive ship. But after getting passed around during WWII Yugoslavia eventually did complete it but was rebuilt with American guns and equipment turning it into... I guess you could say a worse Velos? By choosing this ship however, WG sort of painted themselves into a corner. There were no ships planned by anyone (believe me when I say I looked, oh boy have I looked) with guns larger than 5", especially after WWII. This means the only option is the alt-reality nonsense ships that they have subsequently come up with. So, is there something better than this? Why, yes yes there is. But to do so we'd have to abandon our large caliber ships. First off we could just have Split in her 1958 form with the 4x1 5"/38s:

<i>Split </i>1970

Unfortunately, this too is going to paint us into a corner later on so instead lets see if we can continue from Grom, and that could potentially present us with two options:

The first option is that we simply bump Grom up to tier VIII or it's follow on Huragan series ships which weren't built but were, again just follow on ships with heavier AA and other minor improvements. The other option would be another Norwegian, this time the Cr-class ship Trondheim:

British sister-ship <i>Comet</i> 1945

At first glance this doesn't look much different than the earlier S-class ships but the key is that in choosing this, we are abandoning large caliber gunboats for small caliber ones. This ship, while only have 1x4 TT launcher does get 4x1 4.5" guns of Daring fame and can now fire at up to 24 rounds per minute! This now changes up to perspective of our high tier ships from big alpha, to dakka dakka.

 

Tiers IX and X would either have to once again be made up, kept as they are currently or abandoned in favor of our dakka botes. However, at least at tier IX we could introduce yet another Fletcher from Turkey or West Germany, making them sidegrades to Velos, with all other stats being the same. So to present a more realistic dakka alternative, here's me just cribbing my own words from a year ago:

Tier IXBłyskawica 50'

<i>Błyskawica </i>1960

Here it is, the ultimate evolution of Błyskawica. Refitted with an all new Soviet armament consisting of... either 8 or 4 100mm B-34 guns. This weapon is already in game as secondary armaments to a few Soviet cruisers and aside from a slightly smaller shell (duh) and higher velocity is more or less the same as the 4" guns mentioned above. What isn't clear though is the mounting. One source says that they had 4 guns in singe mounts of standard design of the time. They were improved with full electric drives and loaders and in theory allowed for ROFs that were similar to the aforementioned 4" British mounts (around 20 RPM) again, I'm not 100% clear on the capabilities of these mounts. However, if it did in fact have 8 guns, then it sound like the Poles or Russians or whoever just rebarreled the British MkXIX mounts in which case... 20RPM it is? In addition she was also given much more modern Soviet AA guns, a single quintuple TT launcher, radars and sonars. Seriously, if someone has some images or more definitive information about it's loadout post 1950 I'd be grateful! 

Nonetheless, I think that this might just be crazy enough to work at tier IX, if given 8 guns. 

So with that established, what exactly is the tier X? Well as you can see, this line had led me to small caliber guns equipping high tier destroyers, Harugumo style. Unfortunately, the ships that I found that were equipped with such weapons were predominately frigates, which lacked the high speed, torpedo armament and even enough guns and displacement to be effective at tier X, so that was a non-starter. Surely someone had to produce a proper destroyer with 100mm or similar guns in Europe at this time?!?! And as it turned out someone did, from a most unlikely source... West Germany:

Tier XHamburg-class

<i>Hamburg </i>1964

This ship is downright wacky. I still can't believe it existed. Main guns 4x1 100mm Mle 1953 with a rate of fire of up to 60 rounds per minute! A one second reload. Torpedoes are even wackier. 5 single 21" tubes, 3 in the bow and 2 in the stern wait, wha? Yes, in the bow.

Naval Analyses: FACTS &amp; TRIVIA #1: Modern torpedo launchers, USS Hull, HMS  Victoria, Mississippi class and HMS Vanguard

Granted they were later sealed up when the ships were converted to DDGs in the 70's but still, this ship is all kinds of insane and I love it. The only problem with this ship, other than whether or not you consider West Germany to be lumped into the main German line or stand as it's own nation is is this too radical? After all we are talking about ships that, while designed and built in the 50's weren't commissioned until the 60's! How advanced is too advanced? Personally, I think it's kind of a moot point at this point because, well, what's the alternative?

 

Sadly, as much as I'd like to believe our words mean something to this company, I know all too well that the best we can do is keep hope alive that we get to see some of our favorite ships show up in one form or another, all the while wondering what fight have been... 

  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,311
[CVA16]
Members
8,874 posts
27,090 battles

Not sure how well your T9 boat would stack up against a Kitakaze with 8x100mm (with special IJN pen) and 4x24 torps (with reload booster).

Would your boat have radar AND hydro AND smoke?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
438 posts
2,562 battles
3 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Not sure how well your T9 boat would stack up against a Kitakaze with 8x100mm (with special IJN pen) and 4x24 torps (with reload booster).

Would your boat have radar AND hydro AND smoke?

That's a fair question. The answer is probably yeah why not, according to the devs! I agree if you were to use small caliber guns at high tier then yeah some "Sekret Dokuments" for shells with... 1/4 HE pen (?) would probably have to come in just to make it viable. You can also go the SAP route as well, but that'd be an awkward transition from guns that likely wouldn't fire such rounds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,311
[CVA16]
Members
8,874 posts
27,090 battles
2 minutes ago, Trophy_Wench said:

That's a fair question.

Might have made a typo. Doesn't Kita have s 6x24 tube launcher?

Of course it does NOT have radar or hydro. Their benefits are often overlooked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×