My thoughts on submarines.

[SeaQuest_]

I have no issue with subs being in the game or the players who play them, but I do have some issues with homing torps. Homing torps and the ping mechanic are enough to make me want to give up and leave the game. Having to use the DCP to remove the ping is pure horse manure. If you want to keep the homing torpedoes, give us another way to remove the ping. The DCP is there to stop things like fires and such. It should not have to be used to avoid being hit by homing torpedoes. God help us when a high-tier subs div with HE spamming DD or CA. Use your DCP to avoid torpedoes; their HE spam burns you down; there is no way to stop it. You use the DCP to stop 2-3 fires; here come the homing torps and more HE spam. Rinse and repeat. Sure, there are ships that are good enough at turning to avoid homing torps if the player is not dealing with something else, but many ships do not turn fast enough to avoid them. Give us something else to remove the ping.

The sub location of the ping is wrong. It is not where the sub is, and it does not last long enough to see where it came from unless you are looking directly at it. So using your ASW is worthless if you do not know where the ping came from. The white markers need to be more accurate and last longer. A ship firing their guns from stealth is seen for a period of time, letting the other team know right where they are and even giving them time to shoot back if in range.

I am by far not the only person who feels this way. I have taken a break from the game over personal issues, and these mechanics are very close to making me say enough. I am sure you folks at WG who are very good at this can come up with a way to implement some changes that could fix these issues without killing submarine play.

/Salute

[SnappyBlueShorts]

This may help to explain the rationale for the way subs play...very informative...

SUBMARINES: YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/377

 

The topics covered...

- Why are you adding submarines to the game?
- Why don't you add submarines only to a separate battle type?
- Shotgunning
- How do you fight a submarine if you cannot deal damage to it?
- ASW for Hybrids
- Why was the guaranteed acquisition for subs removed?
- Why does it take so many depth charges to destroy submarines?
- How does damage from ship-dropped depth charges and ASW Airstrikes change with distance? At what depth do depth charges explode?
- Do you plan to increase the efficiency of destroyers against submarines? Could they have a choice between Depth Charge-  - Airstrike and ship-mounted depth charges?
- How do you plan to solve the skill gap problem of different submarine players? 
- Why don't homing torpedoes have dispersion?
- Are there plans to reduce the speed of subs?
- Are there plans to make balance changes to ships based on the strength of ASW armament?
- Why do surfaced subs take damage from depth charges while the rest of the ships do not?
- Why don't you add AA to submarines?

[ArIskandir]

3 hours ago, SeaQuest_ said:

Homing torps and the ping mechanic are enough to make me want to give up and leave the game. Having to use the DCP to remove the ping is pure horse manure

From all the problematic Submarine features, you are picking a couple that are not really a problem but a matter of experience and knowledge. 

DCP as ping break is a non issue because the truth is you almost never should use it as ping break anyways. For BBs it is pointless to use it, a waste. For Cruisers and DDs it is only required on double pings, but they are also less vulnerable to DoT and their DCP recharges faster so it is less of a big deal. 

And the homing torps, the guidance is so unreliable that landing torps against a player that knows how to dodge is really difficult and not at all assured, in many situations homing torps are a noob trap and make more harm to the Submarine using it than to the targets. 

 

[SnappyBlueShorts]

40 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

And the homing torps, the guidance is so unreliable that landing torps against a player that knows how to dodge is really difficult and not at all assured

Agreed! In fact, when I'm on the surface in a sub, I never bother to clear my single pings anymore...the torps are easy enough to dodge.

[paradat]

5 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

From all the problematic Submarine features, you are picking a couple that are not really a problem but a matter of experience and knowledge. 

DCP as ping break is a non issue because the truth is you almost never should use it as ping break anyways. For BBs it is pointless to use it, a waste. For Cruisers and DDs it is only required on double pings, but they are also less vulnerable to DoT and their DCP recharges faster so it is less of a big deal. 

And the homing torps, the guidance is so unreliable that landing torps against a player that knows how to dodge is really difficult and not at all assured, in many situations homing torps are a noob trap and make more harm to the Submarine using it than to the targets. 

 

So much this^^^^

Now if we can just get subs to proxy detect each other again all would be well. 

[USMC2145]

5 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

From all the problematic Submarine features, you are picking a couple that are not really a problem but a matter of experience and knowledge. 

DCP as ping break is a non issue because the truth is you almost never should use it as ping break anyways. For BBs it is pointless to use it, a waste. For Cruisers and DDs it is only required on double pings, but they are also less vulnerable to DoT and their DCP recharges faster so it is less of a big deal. 

And the homing torps, the guidance is so unreliable that landing torps against a player that knows how to dodge is really difficult and not at all assured, in many situations homing torps are a noob trap and make more harm to the Submarine using it than to the targets. 

 

 

4 hours ago, SnappyBlueShorts said:

Agreed! In fact, when I'm on the surface in a sub, I never bother to clear my single pings anymore...the torps are easy enough to dodge.

 

23 minutes ago, paradat said:

So much this^^^^

Now if we can just get subs to proxy detect each other again all would be well. 

And all three of you are sub players... go figure. The op is correct on what he thinks. 

[paradat]

2 minutes ago, USMC2145 said:

 

 

And all three of you are sub players... go figure. The op is correct on what he thinks. 

I play all ship types. By stats I would be considered a BB main.

[SteelClaw]

3 minutes ago, paradat said:

I play all ship types. By stats I would be considered a BB main. 

Dude I had to look. Given that the subs haven't been out that long and you've played over 500 games in them, your "I am a BB main" claim falls flat. 

[paradat]

2 minutes ago, SteelClaw said:

Dude I had to look. Given that the subs haven't been out that long and you've played over 500 games in them, your "I am a BB main" claim falls flat. 

They have been playable for 3 years. Subs rarely dominate a session from me. Your "look up" skills need work lol.

[ArIskandir]

7 minutes ago, USMC2145 said:

And all three of you are sub players... go figure. The op is correct on what he thinks. 

 

1 minute ago, SteelClaw said:

Dude I had to look. Given that the subs haven't been out that long and you've played over 500 games in them, your "I am a BB main" claim falls flat. 

Cool, check mine and tell me I am a Sub player...

I gave you facts, you should never use DCP in your BBs... it is up to you to take the advice or not, just don't keep asking why your head hurts when you keep bumping it against the wall.

[SteelClaw]

1 minute ago, paradat said:

They have been playable for 3 years. Subs rarely dominate a session from me. 

Either way, the OP is totally right that subs need this change. They make the game unfun. Period. 

[paradat]

2 minutes ago, SteelClaw said:

Either way, the OP is totally right that subs need this change. They make the game unfun. Period. 

We have explained why the OP is uninformed. It is totally ok to not like subs but willfully ignoring how to play against them better is silly.  When I am in a BB I almost never clear the pings with DCP it is not usually necessary. 

[SteelClaw]

3 minutes ago, paradat said:

We have explained why the OP is uninformed. It is totally ok to not like subs but willfully ignoring how to play against them better is silly. 

The OP is uninformed? He is in one of the best clans in WoWs and is a KoTs player. Looking at his stats he is a real good player and has been playing a long time... I think he knows what he is talking about. 

[paradat]

7 minutes ago, SteelClaw said:

The OP is uninformed. He is in one of the best clans in WoWs and is a KoTs player. Looking at his stats he is a real good player and has been playing a long time... I think he knows what he is talking about. 

If you hold the position that you need to use DCP on your BB to clear pings enough that it overtaxes it then in my opinion you are uninformed. 

The good news is that Meta is in flux and players will start to figure it out and I would think the OP will easily be one of those players. He will also likely do it better than I do. 

In my experience in WG games it is often the most skilled players that have the most issues with systems that mess with the Meta that they are the masters of. Arty in WOT and CV's in WOWS are the best examples of this. 

Perspective and skill unfortunately do not always go together.

The deadliest sub drivers are not going to ping you.

Cheers.

When you are the best swordsman on the field you really hate arrows.

[ArIskandir]

 

2 minutes ago, paradat said:

When you are the best swordsman on the field you really hate arrows.

in a nutshell

[ArIskandir]

19 minutes ago, SteelClaw said:

The OP is uninformed? He is in one of the best clans in WoWs and is a KoTs player. Looking at his stats he is a real good player and has been playing a long time... I think he knows what he is talking about.

To the OP credit, he is referencing the particular interaction of Divs composed of Submarine+spammer that can indeed very annoying and deadly, but are by far not the worst example of very annoying Divisions. Also, being in a top clan doesn't guarantee you'll be well informed about Submarines... a lot of players of all skill levels just decided to "ignore" Submarines until they were released because keeping up with the changes was kinda annoying and sometimes a waste of time. So Submarines remain relatively "unknown" to many many players... one proof being threads like this one were they reference using DCP to break pings when there's no reason to do such a thing. 

Even after all these years, there are players that insta DCP a single fire... this case is just like that.

[WoIven]

This debate will go on until WG decides what to do. More players despise subs and homing torps than like them, in my opinion. If they start making players leave or affecting WG's wallet in a negative way, then I would say WG will nerf them. Time will tell, and only WG truly knows the results of its polls and such. I dislike subs, but who am I to say? I am a CV main...LOL! 

[SnappyBlueShorts]

2 minutes ago, BIueMoon said:

This debate will go on until WG decides what to do.

Err, umm...sounds like they already have decided...

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/377

 

[WoIven]

4 minutes ago, SnappyBlueShorts said:

Err, umm...sounds like they already have decided...

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/377

 

You can't go by that. They claimed there were going to be no submarines at one point. Time changes things. What WG says today does not reflect what they may say tomorrow. Heck they may not nerf subs but give ships better ways to deal with them. 

[ArIskandir]

2 minutes ago, BIueMoon said:

You can't go by that. They claimed there were going to be no submarines at one point. Time changes things. What WG says today does not reflect what they may say tomorrow. Heck they may not nerf subs but give ships better ways to deal with them. 

If Submarines don't work, they'll get reworked ... they'll never be removed.

[WoIven]

1 minute ago, ArIskandir said:

If Submarines don't work, they'll get reworked ... they'll never be removed.

Oh, I agree. Just pointing out that things change. 

[Crokodone]

55 minutes ago, USMC2145 said:

 

 

And all three of you are sub players... go figure. The op is correct on what he thinks. 

Playing a submarine doesn't make you a sub player; especially if you mean... "Sub Main."

[Rasparthe]

+1 to OP, don't listen to the sub schills that dominate these threads, you are correct.  The design is horrible.  They could go a long ways to fixing them by getting rid of the homing torps and not allowing subs to give away enemy position to the fleet if they are submerged at all.  Until WG stops trying to recover the sunk costs and listens, the sub apologists will throw out badly disguised 'git gud' excuses or charts that even a week old statistician would be ashamed of showing. 

[Jakob_Knight]

4 minutes ago, Rasparthe said:

+1 to OP, don't listen to the sub schills that dominate these threads, you are correct.  The design is horrible.  They could go a long ways to fixing them by getting rid of the homing torps and not allowing subs to give away enemy position to the fleet if they are submerged at all.  Until WG stops trying to recover the sunk costs and listens, the sub apologists will throw out badly disguised 'git gud' excuses or charts that even a week old statistician would be ashamed of showing. 

 

If, as some say, the vast majority of players don't like Subs, how can it be that 'sub schills' dominate these threads?  That would only be possible if the sub apologists are the actual majority or their posts have far more credibility.

 

Something off in your assumptions here.

 

 

[Rasparthe]

4 hours ago, Jakob_Knight said:

 

If, as some say, the vast majority of players don't like Subs, how can it be that 'sub schills' dominate these threads?  That would only be possible if the sub apologists are the actual majority or their posts have far more credibility.

 

Something off in your assumptions here.

 

 

Perhaps, but then you would see some variety of names, but its the usual suspects.  Post about the problems with subs and you can start a timer on how long until the usual names show up.  Don't worry, I don't believe for a second WG actually cares what anyone here says, either for or against subs, but the post was well thought out and didn't deserve the sub schilling treatment.