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Potatonaut

Operations feedback (Aegis in particular)

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Here's some feedback for @Boggzy and @Ahskance or whoever to push to the WG Department of Balans regarding operations and impact of recent changes.

 

Aegis: went from being one of the easiest and more relaxing ops to 5-star to being a total clown fiesta. 98% of random teams can't 5 star it and I see a lot of complaints voiced in the in-game chat about it.

- all the old Kumas, Aobas and Furutakas have been replaced with Myokos and Mogamis and even the occasional Ibuki thrown in. These bots have the obvious more health, more armour and way more of the IJN 203mm HE guns with stupid fire chance and accuracy. The Fubuki and Shira bots in the first wave got replaced with Kitakazes aka fire hoses. The first two waves + convoy escorts tend to thoroughly wreck random teams and usually 2-3 people are now dead before the convoy escorts are taken down.

- the final task, to kill the 3 bot BB's that spawn in the north, was made difficult when Aegis became available to T7's and T8's. These bot BB's used to be an Ishizuchi, a Kongo and a Fuso. Now it's two Nagatos and an Amagi - more armour, more health and accurate 410mm guns with 27mm overmatch. They absolutely brutalise cruisers and can overmatch the plating of most T6 and T7 BB's as well. But you could still kill them with a reasonably decent team, that is, until the recent change to make Aegis infested with T7+ bot cruisers means teams are already mauled before the bot BB's even spawn and have absolutely no hope in hell of killing them now. The convoy escorts, in addition to having more health and armour so they stay alive longer, now move faster so teams get pushed a lot further down the map and have to spend a lot of time sailing into range of the 3 bot BB's, only to face the aforementioned overmatch issue. Most teams dont even bother trying now and just settle for a 3 or 4-star run.

tl;dr Aegis is really bad now, please take the time to fix it properly, maybe include a way for teams to heal or at least give us a break after the convoy escorts are sunk so teams can regroup and get ready for the final wave. Or just revert the changes.

Raptor Rescue: it can still be 5-starred with a reasonably proficient random team but I don't think the changes helped (Raptor feels like it's been slowed down a lot and the bot spawns seem to have been delayed and shifted further away). RR was already easy to win as long as the team wasn't totally brain dead. Now it incentivises players to leave Raptor and seek out action + XP instead of having a boring match sailing alongside Raptor watching other people get XP. In the old system, as long as people sailed somewhat near the convoy, they could still get plenty of action. Now you have to sail a fair way from the convoy and depending on the route/exit, some of the last bot spawns can be very close to Raptor and will swiftly overwhelm it. These changes were not needed.

Cherry Blossom: the friendly bot Fletchers that arrive with the bot carriers and sail into the harbour don't do anything. They don't fire. They don't torp. They don't lay useful smoke. Their guns are locked on the centerline and never move. At least players seem to understand now that the aerodromes have to be destroyed to win.

Hermes: playable with cruisers now instead of getting simultaneously focused by 5 bot BB's with a raging hateboner for your citadel. About the only positive change from the recent 'rebalancing'.

Ultimate Frontier: similar story to Raptor. A bunch of unnecessary changes chiefly relating to delayed spawns, UF was already easy to 5-star with the average random team compared to how it used to be years ago. If anything, the initial BB spawn should have been moved to the NE entrance of the lagoon to force BB players to engage the bot cruisers that can kill the transport aircraft - too often I see selfish BB's running straight down the center and ignoring the bot cruisers, and then ofc they wipe the transport aircraft and its an instant mission fail. When this happens it means cruisers players are then forced to sail north at top speed to try and kill the bot cruisers before the planes spawn - while being crossfired by the bot BB's in the center as the BB players safely farm while ignoring the objective. Good times.

Narai - doesn't seem to be all that different. Some of the bots have been uptiered but overall it's business as usual. Just the usual occasional issue of idiots not understanding objectives.

Regards (for all the good I don't really expect it will do)

 

 

 

 

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to be honest I don't feel Raptor Rescue has changed much, its more a case of finding ships there were effective as tier VI Warspite, Arizona, Leander and London at tier VIII, and while the Leander replacement is easy, BB less so along with 203 CA even before you factor in smoke, as all the aforementioned it was fire AP at everything bar DD (Leander excepted), now with many tier VIII CA it is over-pen city, or you have things like RU 180mm which are citadel city but do comparatively little damage almost like there is a bug, one game I had almost 40 citadels and an underwhelming amount of damage.

 

In fact, I would go as far as saying this patch seamed to have made some ships very prone to AP over-pen relative to before the patch and running specific ops in a division.

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you know

 

I have played the OPs many times since they have returned. I find them to be more challenging. And I have used T6 to T8s.

Yes, they are harder. No you don't win every time.

You should not expect to win every time.

If you are expecting to win every time you play a battle or an operation, you are playing the wrong game. You need to work for that win.

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5 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

you know

 

I have played the OPs many times since they have returned. I find them to be more challenging. And I have used T6 to T8s.

Yes, they are harder. No you don't win every time.

You should not expect to win every time.

If you are expecting to win every time you play a battle or an operation, you are playing the wrong game. You need to work for that win.

True, but est modus in rebus, as my ancestors used to say: personally I always play in random teams using Operations basically to grind my T7 and T8, and my feeling on the new ops are as such:

Ultimate frontier: much easier than it used to be.

Hermes: easier than it used to be. High adrenaline, but funny

Cherry Blossom: slightly easier than it used to be

Newpoort: slightly easier than it used to be, now when you see the title screen coming you can  think "ok, this one can be done" but you need to work for it

Narai: Slightly more difficult than it used to be, but completely doable

Killer Whale: Well this one is a strange one: as for the bots are involved, does not seem to me "more difficult", but it looks like many many players have totally forgotten how to play this op. Problem in sample size, maybe

Raptor Rescue: more difficult than it used to be. Still completely doable but as @Potatonaut said you need a competent team. Maybe have a choice to play fairly fast BBs encourages players to stray too far away from the Raptor, idk

Aegis: up to now the one that happened to me less often, only 2 runs: up to now I should say "completely undoable"

 

Do I forget something?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Potatonaut said:

At least players seem to understand now that the aerodromes have to be destroyed to win.

Hi, I have played many ops since their return but so far I still have yet to draw a Cherry Blossom game. I have forgotten how to play that op. Do you use AP or HE on the airfields? Can BB's use HE and Cruisers have to use AP?

Thanks

Edited by JBR40

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11 minutes ago, JBR40 said:

Hi, I have played many ops since their return but so far I still have yet to draw a Cherry Blossom game. I have forgotten how to play that op. Do you use AP or HE on the airfields? Can BB's use HE and Cruisers have to use AP?

Thanks

HE on the airfields.

Yes, AP can do damage, but it's not as effective.

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they will keep hitting it with a hammer to try and improve things meanwhile the rewards for the ops just aren't worth it, even more so with all the losses in random pugs...

failed raptor last night yards from the finish line...  (still wouldn't have been a 5 star) most of the team still alive but not focusing on the targets actually shooting raptor...

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2 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

<edited>
I have played the OPs many times since they have returned. I find them to be more challenging. And I have used T6 to T8s.

Yes, they are harder. No you don't win every time.

You should not expect to win every time.

If you are expecting to win every time you play a battle or an operation, you are playing the wrong game. You need to work for that win.

+1

I like that the Scenario Operations are challenging.  I think the difficulty involves player education, proficiency and experience (or the lack thereof).  That's a player problem, not an OP problem.

Raptor Rescue (the last few times I've played it) seemed to do a better job of the green-team Raptor and her support fleet sailng together. 
This is good, because Raptor used to out-pace her repair ship in previous patches/updates.

If players in Aegis seem to be struggling with sinking the first wave of red-team 'Bot ships, then that is a "clue" for me.
The clue indicates a player proficiency problem.

I am enjoying sailing more of my ships into Scenario Operations nowadays, especially the ones that were, in the past, prevented from doing so.

The Scenario Operations are "scripted" and "timed" and there is a "pace" to playing them for a win.
When played properly, it is satisfying to see "a plan come together" and it gives me an "I love working with professionals" feeling.  It's very satisfying.

I'm not perfect. 
I botched an attempt to sink red-team CV "King" in Narai a few days ago while sailing a new IJN Light Cruiser.  I got the escort DD, but the escorting cruiser sunk me.
Oops. 
That was a learning experience.
Okay.  It's on me to "level-up" my game play.  Just because I've "done this before" is no reason to get complacent or to slack-off my efforts to play well.  :-)

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1 minute ago, SKurj said:

doesn't do much good when 95+% of the playerbase doesn't visit the forums...  

Well the 5% (that do visit the forums) can tell their friends, and they can tell their friends, and so on, and so on.  :-)

https://youtu.be/brC_jK6stBs


 

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4 hours ago, Potatonaut said:

Here's some feedback for @Boggzy and @Ahskance or whoever to push to the WG Department of Balans regarding operations and impact of recent changes.

Aegis: went from being one of the easiest and more relaxing ops to 5-star to being a total clown fiesta. 98% of random teams can't 5 star it and I see a lot of complaints voiced in the in-game chat about it.

- all the old Kumas, Aobas and Furutakas have been replaced with Myokos and Mogamis and even the occasional Ibuki thrown in. These bots have the obvious more health, more armour and way more of the IJN 203mm HE guns with stupid fire chance and accuracy. The Fubuki and Shira bots in the first wave got replaced with Kitakazes aka fire hoses. The first two waves + convoy escorts tend to thoroughly wreck random teams and usually 2-3 people are now dead before the convoy escorts are taken down.

- the final task, to kill the 3 bot BB's that spawn in the north, was made difficult when Aegis became available to T7's and T8's. These bot BB's used to be an Ishizuchi, a Kongo and a Fuso. Now it's two Nagatos and an Amagi - more armour, more health and accurate 410mm guns with 27mm overmatch. They absolutely brutalise cruisers and can overmatch the plating of most T6 and T7 BB's as well. But you could still kill them with a reasonably decent team, that is, until the recent change to make Aegis infested with T7+ bot cruisers means teams are already mauled before the bot BB's even spawn and have absolutely no hope in hell of killing them now. The convoy escorts, in addition to having more health and armour so they stay alive longer, now move faster so teams get pushed a lot further down the map and have to spend a lot of time sailing into range of the 3 bot BB's, only to face the aforementioned overmatch issue. Most teams dont even bother trying now and just settle for a 3 or 4-star run.

tl;dr Aegis is really bad now, please take the time to fix it properly, maybe include a way for teams to heal or at least give us a break after the convoy escorts are sunk so teams can regroup and get ready for the final wave. Or just revert the changes.

.....

Regards (for all the good I don't really expect it will do)

Hmmm??   That 98% and that number comes from where?  Aegis is difficult and that is a valid statement.  Even with a hand picked team of five (5) we often lose.  And, that loss includes the two (2) unknown players the MM gives us.  We did defeat it with only five before the recent changes though.....

So how?  That's really simple:  the players and the ships they choose....   The AI in the game stays the same.  The only difference is you, what knife you bring to a gun fight and whom you play the mode with !  the solution isn't  "fix the mode so it's simple"...  COOP right now is almost unplayable....  PVP is outright broken for many of us.

I think there is a mispreception, a cultural dissonance if you will, in play with Operations:  that Operations and COOP are PVE and therefore, should be the same....  Oooops !   That simply isn't the case - NOR, should it be....!!!

I play a lot of COOP and wish the "Old COOP" would return..........but, alas;  team damage simply is too difficult a concept for an arcade shooter it seems;   smart bots that can shoot back are too complicated for most to handle;   ships that require multi-tasking are far too complicated for this game;  and, since the game has no use for measurable and definable "skill", you can buy your way to the highest level of play and the game becomes a simple version of Red and Green targets that simply fit in a small arena and can only punch each other,  till one falls down.......  

image.png.f4206f8befbd98793d1af1281fbc268a.png

The game is that simple IMO........  And, can be fun.......if you invest the time and work together...

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12 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The clue indicates a player proficiency problem.

I disagree. The clue indicates WG went too far in upping the difficulty level for the addition of T8 ships in Aegis.

All Ops should be winnable with a PUG team of seven T6 ships. I said WINNABLE, not a cakewalk.

As they are now, I don't believe that is possible.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

I disagree. The clue indicates WG went too far in upping the difficulty level for the addition of T8 ships in Aegis.

All Ops should be winnable with a PUG team of seven T6 ships. I said WINNABLE, not a cakewalk.

As they are now, I don't believe that is possible.

 

I think it is possible to win.
Also, the teams are supposed to be balanced according to the ships the green-team players bring.
So, if one person brings a Tier-6 ship and every other player brings a Tier-8 ship, the 'bot team's ships will be adjusted accordingly.  Which, is something that I figure people are still getting acquainted with.

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This iteration of Operations is my favorite so far. Many of my games have been very close run things (won Cherry Blossom last night as the last ship alive, on 700hp, for example). I've also had to settle for less than five stars pretty often. I feel like my skill, experience, and effort makes the difference between winning and losing, which is a different experience from having to settle for trying my 'personal best' in other modes. 

Rewards are commensurate and appropriate. It's where I stack my blues and reds. Lately I've been cycling through my T8 premium credits to farm credits and Commander FXP, and to reliably clear the last three battle pass dailies. I'm averaging 1,400-1,800 BXP per game this patch, YMMV. 

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Nice.  :-)

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45 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

I disagree. The clue indicates WG went too far in upping the difficulty level for the addition of T8 ships in Aegis.

All Ops should be winnable with a PUG team of seven T6 ships. I said WINNABLE, not a cakewalk.

As they are now, I don't believe that is possible.

I don't usually play in a Div, so most of my recent OPs experience has been with Random players.

So, to make this clear......

 

All Ops are winnable with a PUG Team of seven T6 ships.

No it is not easy. Yes it is a Challenge. People have played these Ops for years. People played these things so much, they have gotten used to them. They have the timing for the appearance of ships down. They literally sail to certain points in Narai while in Weimers and torpedo everything as it spawns. Where is the fun in that? There is no challenge there. Its people farming XP, Damage, Torp hits, Floods, etc. Yes, your team still wins, but is it any fun for the people who stayed with the troop ships to defend them when the battle ends in a victory before the troop ships even get in the harbor?

 

The difficulty is fine. The OPs as they originally appeared before the CV re-work were challenging and not always won. You look in the history and you'll see people commenting on that. The OPs we still had after the CV re-work were not quite the same. the CV prescience of the prior was missing and they were actually easier. Keep playing them month after month, you get used to them and you find yourself betting it more often then not.

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6 hours ago, Potatonaut said:

Here's some feedback for @Boggzy and @Ahskance or whoever to push to the WG Department of Balans regarding operations and impact of recent changes.

 

Aegis: went from being one of the easiest and more relaxing ops to 5-star to being a total clown fiesta. 98% of random teams can't 5 star it and I see a lot of complaints voiced in the in-game chat about it.

- all the old Kumas, Aobas and Furutakas have been replaced with Myokos and Mogamis and even the occasional Ibuki thrown in. These bots have the obvious more health, more armour and way more of the IJN 203mm HE guns with stupid fire chance and accuracy. The Fubuki and Shira bots in the first wave got replaced with Kitakazes aka fire hoses. The first two waves + convoy escorts tend to thoroughly wreck random teams and usually 2-3 people are now dead before the convoy escorts are taken down.

- the final task, to kill the 3 bot BB's that spawn in the north, was made difficult when Aegis became available to T7's and T8's. These bot BB's used to be an Ishizuchi, a Kongo and a Fuso. Now it's two Nagatos and an Amagi - more armour, more health and accurate 410mm guns with 27mm overmatch. They absolutely brutalise cruisers and can overmatch the plating of most T6 and T7 BB's as well. But you could still kill them with a reasonably decent team, that is, until the recent change to make Aegis infested with T7+ bot cruisers means teams are already mauled before the bot BB's even spawn and have absolutely no hope in hell of killing them now. The convoy escorts, in addition to having more health and armour so they stay alive longer, now move faster so teams get pushed a lot further down the map and have to spend a lot of time sailing into range of the 3 bot BB's, only to face the aforementioned overmatch issue. Most teams dont even bother trying now and just settle for a 3 or 4-star run.

tl;dr Aegis is really bad now, please take the time to fix it properly, maybe include a way for teams to heal or at least give us a break after the convoy escorts are sunk so teams can regroup and get ready for the final wave. Or just revert the changes.

Raptor Rescue: it can still be 5-starred with a reasonably proficient random team but I don't think the changes helped (Raptor feels like it's been slowed down a lot and the bot spawns seem to have been delayed and shifted further away). RR was already easy to win as long as the team wasn't totally brain dead. Now it incentivises players to leave Raptor and seek out action + XP instead of having a boring match sailing alongside Raptor watching other people get XP. In the old system, as long as people sailed somewhat near the convoy, they could still get plenty of action. Now you have to sail a fair way from the convoy and depending on the route/exit, some of the last bot spawns can be very close to Raptor and will swiftly overwhelm it. These changes were not needed.

Cherry Blossom: the friendly bot Fletchers that arrive with the bot carriers and sail into the harbour don't do anything. They don't fire. They don't torp. They don't lay useful smoke. Their guns are locked on the centerline and never move. At least players seem to understand now that the aerodromes have to be destroyed to win.

Hermes: playable with cruisers now instead of getting simultaneously focused by 5 bot BB's with a raging hateboner for your citadel. About the only positive change from the recent 'rebalancing'.

Ultimate Frontier: similar story to Raptor. A bunch of unnecessary changes chiefly relating to delayed spawns, UF was already easy to 5-star with the average random team compared to how it used to be years ago. If anything, the initial BB spawn should have been moved to the NE entrance of the lagoon to force BB players to engage the bot cruisers that can kill the transport aircraft - too often I see selfish BB's running straight down the center and ignoring the bot cruisers, and then ofc they wipe the transport aircraft and its an instant mission fail. When this happens it means cruisers players are then forced to sail north at top speed to try and kill the bot cruisers before the planes spawn - while being crossfired by the bot BB's in the center as the BB players safely farm while ignoring the objective. Good times.

Narai - doesn't seem to be all that different. Some of the bots have been uptiered but overall it's business as usual. Just the usual occasional issue of idiots not understanding objectives.

Regards (for all the good I don't really expect it will do)

 

 

 

 

I've been unlucky in getting UF so dunno about that one but all the others are all very doable except Aegis.

Aegis is bug city and ship changes still don't fit the design of the op.  The design needs to be reworked since balance "tweaks" cannot fix these problems such as the bot escorts running too fast, the convoy once captured running too fast, Nagato detect causing DD to smoke too early, etc.

 

Speaking of bugs the base planes AA damage is STILL bugged.  I know some may not worry about this since it doesn't affect play, but if they knew how much their rewards get shafted they might feel different.

Narai might be ok but then again I saw one game where the Wakeful and Cleveland came out of bay with no provocation causing the bay spawn to start before anybody was close to being there.  If that pathing was intentional then that's a problem.

 

I've always been for more difficulty but only if the earnings are commensurately compensated....otherwise it's just a blatant nerf.  Unfortunately, I've compiled some evidence that some of the ops were in fact nerfed more than stated by WG.  I'll release when I'm done being sure but it's looking like there was some more "mis-communication."

Edited by YouSatInGum
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1 hour ago, kgh52 said:

I disagree. The clue indicates WG went too far in upping the difficulty level for the addition of T8 ships in Aegis.

All Ops should be winnable with a PUG team of seven T6 ships. I said WINNABLE, not a cakewalk.

As they are now, I don't believe that is possible.

No, I disagree.   That is the COOP standard.  Why make the game unplayable with two COOP level modes?  COOP is so bad it almost makes me ill some days....   AND, I do understand that we are not all of the same skill level or have the same gaming experiences to draw from...... 

But, having said that:  we need a "serious" PVE mode to keep players whom want a challenge but don't want the terrible nature of PVP gameplay.....

And, as I have said before:  you are more than welcome to join us any night we are divisioning in RO's.   All we expect is that you use our Discord and that you want to work as part of a team....  We don't win them all........because, we try different ship combinations every time we play !!!  Well, in truth, most of the others try different ships and I stick to the five or six ships I like.....  Feel free to drop in !

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1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

No, I disagree.   That is the COOP standard.  Why make the game unplayable with two COOP level modes?  COOP is so bad it almost makes me ill some days....   AND, I do understand that we are not all of the same skill level or have the same gaming experiences to draw from...... 

But, having said that:  we need a "serious" PVE mode to keep players whom want a challenge but don't want the terrible nature of PVP gameplay.....

And, as I have said before:  you are more than welcome to join us any night we are divisioning in RO's.   All we expect is that you use our Discord and that you want to work as part of a team....  We don't win them all........because, we try different ship combinations every time we play !!!  Well, in truth, most of the others try different ships and I stick to the five or six ships I like.....  Feel free to drop in !

I believe the coop standard is you should win 95% or more of your coop battles with a PUG team.

No Op should be an automatic loss. Neither should they be an automatic win. However, the possibility of winning should always be there. IMO, it is not.

 

Since you did not specify a server I assume you're talking about Warships, I would like to join you. I'll check later tonight if I can.

2 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

All Ops are winnable with a PUG Team of seven T6 ships.

Since the rework, I strongly disagree.

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i still think the dispersion and sigma has been cranked up on the bots in ops

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I like the operations, making them to easy would take the fun out of them, if you have a bad team you will lose, but that goes with almost anything except maybe coop.  The only time I have ever lost Killer Whale is when the team members are so focused on farming dmg they forget to exit.  As for Aegis, that is harder but winnable as long as the team does not just sit out in open water and get blasted by 2 different fleets at the start.

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2 hours ago, kgh52 said:

I believe the coop standard is you should win 95% or more of your coop battles with a PUG team.

No Op should be an automatic loss. Neither should they be an automatic win. However, the possibility of winning should always be there. IMO, it is not.

 

Since you did not specify a server I assume you're talking about Warships, I would like to join you. I'll check later tonight if I can.

Since the rework, I strongly disagree.

not sure 95% is correct,  if it were 95% i'd get bored pretty quick.  but certainly  higher than it is currently.

i do feel strongly though that rewards should be the same across the board for time spent, wasting 20 mins in an op for  400bxp kinda sucks...  i can earn that in under 5 mins in random and lose...(yolo)

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