Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
ArIskandir

An example of counterplaying a Submarine with a DD

39 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

11,290
[SALVO]
Members
16,448 posts
10,185 battles

Given the persistent statements of "how you can't counterplay Submarines in a DD" (special call out to @Musket22) I present this quick and trivial example, it is nothing fancy just the pedestrian day-to-day work of a DD contesting Caps and doing ASW duty as a side mission. 

 

As I have previously said, Submarines are counterplayed through Concealment management (the objective being spotting them).

  1. Recon: I probe the Cap in order to see what's there, I'm confident it is the Sub but I can't Yolo in, it is early match and there's a lot of nasty stuff roaming around, including CV and Radar
  2. Applying pressure: I realize the Sub is unsupported so I have a window to push it while also taking the Cap
  3. Spotting the Submarine: I push the Submarine until I get him in Hydro range, now the Submarine is revealed to my team but I'm still unspotted. The Sub is at periscope depth and can't spot me back (my detection range is equal to my Air concealment value, a bit over 2 km). Notice I don't fire my guns so I don't get spotted by the Sub's team. 
  4. Breaking contact: Due to an untimely CV intervention, I get spotted. It is then that I finally shoot the Sub because why the heck not if I am already spotted by planes. As I no longer have the Concealment advantage, I need to break contact and pull out. I use some ninja smoke to disengage and make a little mistake on leaving the smoke a bit too soon but I was worried about Tallin's Radar coming too close. In the end I'm able to take the Cap and safely disengage after taking just a scratch in exchange for 5K HP from the Sub, that's 1/3 of the Submarine's health. That's a good trade.
  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 5
  • Boring 4
  • Meh 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,259
[BOTES]
Members
2,394 posts
10,558 battles

A sub yoloing cap while surfaced in the first minutes, failing to attack you, you failing to deal significant damage to it, favorable MM with few CA/CLs, no DD contesting mid, and CV being inept. You call this counterplay? That's just a comedy of errors for all involved.

  • Cool 5
  • Thanks 16
  • Boring 1
  • Meh 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,290
[SALVO]
Members
16,448 posts
10,185 battles
15 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

A sub yoloing cap while surfaced in the first minutes, failing to attack you, you failing to deal significant damage to it, favorable MM with few CA/CLs, no DD contesting mid, and CV being inept. You call this counterplay? That's just a comedy of errors for all involved.

So your counter thesis is what?... Subs can't be counterplayed? There's nothing to do but suffer and blitch about it?... would you care to contribute with something constructive on how to interact with Submarines? 

  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,352 posts
3,059 battles
42 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Given the persistent statements of "how you can't counterplay Submarines in a DD"

Those statements are only from people who have zero knowledge about ASW in either World War. It's a waste of time to prove something to them.

  • Cool 1
  • Meh 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
193
[-WD-]
Members
183 posts
14,870 battles
7 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

So your counter thesis is what?... Subs can't be counterplayed? There's nothing to do but suffer and blitch about it?... would you care to contribute with something constructive on how to interact with Submarines? 

I'm inclined to agree with SeaKing here. Poor sub play against a knowledgeable DD player in a same tier strong ASW DD with Hydro and quick-reloading smoke is only useful as a best-case scenario, similar to demonstrating how to counter CVs in a DD by showing a match where an enemy midway holds W with a squad of DBs and TBs into Halland flak, or showing how to counter spamming cruisers in BBs by showing an Ohio dev striking a stationary open-water Neptune. Is is counterplay, and it does hold some useful tidbits, but it's hardly useful as a teaching tool beyond "this is how to punish poor/noob play". 

  • Cool 8
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,290
[SALVO]
Members
16,448 posts
10,185 battles
22 minutes ago, Junpei_MT said:

Is is counterplay, and it does hold some useful tidbits, but it's hardly useful as a teaching tool beyond "this is how to punish poor/noob play". 

I can only use the examples I have, yes this is a text book favorable setup but the same principle applies for every interaction where there's enough concealment to contest with the Submarine. 

Two questions: 

  1. Is the theory wrong?, Is there a conceptual mistake in how I say to approach ASW interactions?
  2. Other than not abandoning the Cap where he spawned and maybe being a bit over eager in the face of a Cossack, what poor/noob play do you find in the Submarine player?
Edited by ArIskandir
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,132
[WPORT]
Members
20,719 posts
22,656 battles
1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

In the end I'm able to take the Cap and safely disengage after taking just a scratch in exchange for 5K HP from the Sub, that's 1/3 of the Submarine's health. That's a good trade.

:cap_look::cap_like:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,231
[-AGW-]
Members
754 posts
47,284 battles
39 minutes ago, black_hull4 said:

Those statements are only from people who have zero knowledge about ASW in either World War. It's a waste of time to prove something to them.

You say that as if "World of ASW" and it's Over-Gimmicked' subs bear ANY RESEMBLANCE to the capabilities of DDs, CA/CLs and BBs to counter WW1 or WW2 subs.

Other than the fact that actual and game subs can submerge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
193
[-WD-]
Members
183 posts
14,870 battles
22 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:
  1.  Other than not abandoning the Cap where he spawned and maybe being a bit over eager in the face of a Cossack, what poor/noob play do you find in the Submarine player?

So the sub player screwed up at the very beginning of the video by trying to solo a middle cap with no support in a CV game and no idea what was there. His D cap flank was likely to fall due to both BBs (Tirp and Zieten) immediately abandoning that flank, and his CV spotting over there would soon reveal a tasty 3 BB push to farm and kite. I imagine going there and working with his friendly DD and CV would have (in theory) shredded your push as the A/B flank wrapped around and pushed through against your CV and kiting BBs. 

At t= 0:07, you spot each other, and he likely sees the Mainz behind you. There is no reason for him to stick around and fight a 2v1 against a Hydro CA with great guns and a Hydro DD with great maneuverability and fast smokes. He still has time at this point to divert to pushing A with the strong side or kiting D with the weak side and CV support. Continuing to lurk around C is a complete waste of his time, imo. 

The rest of the engagement is predicated on this poorly thought-out initial deployment and an optimistic or naiive expectation of being able to stay around C and spar with you. He leaves his dive and escape far too late, and I chalk this up to him likely being still thoroughly unfamiliar with subs.  He doesn't realize he can be shot at while at periscope depth, he horribly misjudges the speed of his pings, his torps are launched with no target. He only escapes because of the tirpitz beginning to lumber over from D and the CV realizing how far you're overextending to chase the sub. He is clearly a noob sub player. Nothing wrong with that, it's just what he is.

22 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:
  • Is the theory wrong?, Is there a conceptual misake in how I say to approach ASW interactions?

In theory, not really. Keeping your guns silent for ease of disengagement is a bit of a misplay in Cossack when you have smokes available, as they are your "get out of jail free" card that lets you take engagements like that. I'm not a master of anti-sub theory, nor do I think that doctrine has been comprehensively explored and standardized/perfected yet. I think your mentality is a good step towards achieving both of those goals, but it must be employed with discretion. In messier engagements I'm not sure how well the theory applies.

Edited by Junpei_MT
Grammar
  • Cool 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,760
[RLGN]
Members
19,140 posts
35,181 battles
2 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

I can only use the examples I have, yes this is a text book favorable setup but the same principle applies for every interaction where there's enough concealment to contest with the Submarine.

I think part of the problem is folks don’t believe subs can be countered.

I’ve never had any doubt they can be, and that goes a long way.

Maybe it’s books like ‘Escort Commander’ by Terence Robertson, or movies like ‘The Enemy Below,’ or just my general knowledge about the history of ASW; but I’m constantly watching for where subs might be or are, and they don’t bother me much.

It may also be folks think they have to use depth charges or ASW planes to counter subs; yes, if they’re down deep; but if they’re at periscope depth or surfaced; SHOOT THE (REDACTED) THING.

I get more sub kills with guns, than anything else.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,349
[WOLF1]
[WOLF1]
Members
2,912 posts
8,973 battles
3 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I think part of the problem is folks don’t believe subs can be countered.

And they refuse to listen and learn when people point out that they're wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
591
[USCG]
Members
1,004 posts
31,506 battles

Not a fan of subs in this game but that’s a different topic…. Every encounter with a sub is different in a DD. Sometimes you rush for the kill, others you run because either the subs torps or you being detected and focus fired by the sub’s team. For me, my low detection range in a DD has always been one of my strongest strengths which subs eliminate if they’re near. Do you risk a rush attack or run to fight later. 

Again, I’m not a fan of subs in game…

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,847
[BONKS]
Members
4,814 posts
52 battles
8 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

what poor/noob play do you find in the Submarine player?

Well given that you spotted each other at the beginning the sub should have immediately disengaged rather than try to contest. Either that or wait for you to tap the cap then use the hydrophone to set up a shotgun ambush if a more risky approach is preferable.

In general cap contesting in a sub at the beginning of a battle when everyone's focus is on caps isn't exactly smart play unless you know for sure that the cap is completely empty. Subs are damage farmers, not playmakers.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45
[KILL]
[KILL]
Beta Testers
140 posts

you are lucky that he didnt had any support there because the moment you fired at him and he dived you would be permalit and he could ping you and torp you. I dont see where the counterplay is but whatever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,290
[SALVO]
Members
16,448 posts
10,185 battles
24 minutes ago, Nishimura_1 said:

you are lucky that he didnt had any support there because the moment you fired at him and he dived you would be permalit and he could ping you and torp you. I dont see where the counterplay is but whatever.

It wasn't luck, I willingly took an engagement that was on my interest to take. I fire at him on the confidence I have smoke to disengage at will, the moment I want. The ping and torpedoes are not a significant threat at that point and hardly ever a threat for DDs unless you are double pinged and potato derp your DCP. 

  • Funny 1
  • Boring 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
398
[F4E]
Members
605 posts
10,553 battles
56 minutes ago, Nishimura_1 said:

you are lucky that he didnt had any support there because the moment you fired at him and he dived you would be permalit and he could ping you and torp you. I dont see where the counterplay is but whatever.

 

26 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

It wasn't luck, I willingly took an engagement that was on my interest to take. I fire at him on the confidence I have smoke to disengage at will, the moment I want. The ping and torpedoes are not a significant threat at that point and hardly ever a threat for DDs unless you are double pinged and potato derp your DCP. 

I think Nish raising a good point, with any support at all behind the sub you are in a bad position.  The sub can always dive to break concealment.  You remain visible if you fire.  If you charge to use DC's, you're going to get blapped by the support.

You cherry picked one example where a DD could single out a 1vs1 fight with a sub.  You're in an optimal DD for that purposes.  So what was the end result?  Did you kill the sub later?  Did you win the game?  It looks like you did nothing to affect the sub and took the cap for a couple minutes.

I don't believe this is a good example of DD/sub interaction to say this is good, balanced, etc.

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45
[KILL]
[KILL]
Beta Testers
140 posts

also you picked one of the most versatile t8 destroyers. Try that on a benson/kagero and then we discuss about the counterplay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
193
[-WD-]
Members
183 posts
14,870 battles
35 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

It wasn't luck, I willingly took an engagement that was on my interest to take. I fire at him on the confidence I have smoke to disengage at will, the moment I want.

I think that was one of the big positive things to take away from this example. Seeing an SS caught out like that without support and stuck nose-in and knowing you have the time and capacity to punish him for it led to a good trade. As some others have mentioned, part of developing a method to effectively deal with subs is to know when they're vulnerable and take every opportunity to deal chip damage. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,290
[SALVO]
Members
16,448 posts
10,185 battles
11 hours ago, Junpei_MT said:

So the sub player screwed up at the very beginning of the video by trying to solo a middle cap with no support in a CV game and no idea what was there. (...)

At t= 0:07, you spot each other, and he likely sees the Mainz behind you. There is no reason for him to stick around and fight a 2v1 against a Hydro CA with great guns and a Hydro DD with great maneuverability and fast smokes.(...)

The rest of the engagement is predicated on this poorly thought-out initial deployment and an optimistic or naive expectation of being able to stay around C and spar with you. 

 

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Well given that you spotted each other at the beginning the sub should have immediately disengaged rather than try to contest.

Correct. That's why I mentioned those aspects in my question. These considerations acknowledge the existence of situations that are not favorable to Submarine's operation, understanding what those conditions are, is the root to understanding how to counterplay Submarines. I know that's evident for both of you guys but it isn't for many others reading this, that's why I ask in order to make evident there are conditions that preclude effective Submarine operation, replicating those conditions would be the objective here.

11 hours ago, Junpei_MT said:

I think your mentality is a good step towards achieving both of those goals, but it must be employed with discretion. In messier engagements I'm not sure how well the theory applies.

Of course there's no "one size fits all" tactic for the game (one reason why this is a great game), but having a base guideline upon which to build and branch out can be helpful. The idea here is understanding that Spotting is the strongest asset of a DD when interacting with Submarines, not DCs. Direct damage delivery is situational and just a consequence of your Spotting, not the prime objective to achieve. 

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

In general cap contesting in a sub at the beginning of a battle when everyone's focus is on caps isn't exactly smart play unless you know for sure that the cap is completely empty. Subs are damage farmers, not playmakers.

I think on many situations Submarines can be playmakers (I even say must be, but I know I'm a radical in this aspect). German Subs in particular can be excellent at Cap contesting (that's what I do) so I don't find the notion of contesting a Cap, even at the beginning of the match a critical mistake (unless very specific situations of course). After all, if any ship type has a fair chance to survive such situation, it is a Submarine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,654
[SHOOT]
Beta Testers
5,165 posts
15,884 battles
12 hours ago, awildseaking said:

A sub yoloing cap while surfaced in the first minutes, failing to attack you, you failing to deal significant damage to it, favorable MM with few CA/CLs, no DD contesting mid, and CV being inept. You call this counterplay? That's just a comedy of errors for all involved.

That same comedy played itself out for the past eight years with cruisers and DDs. Bury or burn the hippocracy. Because that's how most cruiser to DD encounters end. what you think this is a flight sim? One shot one kill? :etc_red_button:  welcome to the world of cruisers... :Smile_honoring:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11,290
[SALVO]
Members
16,448 posts
10,185 battles
24 minutes ago, Glamorboy said:

I think Nish raising a good point, with any support at all behind the sub you are in a bad position.  The sub can always dive to break concealment.  You remain visible if you fire.  If you charge to use DC's, you're going to get blapped by the support.

Those are exactly the points I want to highlight:

  1. I take the chance because the Submarine has weak support
  2. If the Sub dives, he also breaks vision and I become immediately unspotted. That's why I make emphasis in not firing at the Sub
  3. You don't need to charge for a DC run, your objective is to spot the Sub for your team's Airstrikes.
28 minutes ago, Glamorboy said:

You cherry picked one example where a DD could single out a 1vs1 fight with a sub.  You're in an optimal DD for that purposes.

I won't take an engagement that is not on my favor, why should I and why should you? It is fundamental to understand when you can make a play and when you shouldn't.

30 minutes ago, Glamorboy said:

So what was the end result?  Did you kill the sub later?  Did you win the game?  It looks like you did nothing to affect the sub and took the cap for a couple minutes.

 My right flank melted and I had to move there to fill the gap, I wasn't able engage the Submarine again but you can be assured that as long as I remained in the area, the Sub would not be able to operate there because I would be blocking it (aka countering it). 

32 minutes ago, Glamorboy said:

I don't believe this is a good example of DD/sub interaction to say this is good, balanced, etc.

I've always been on the first line calling what's wrong with Subs, what exploits they have, what changes can be made to make them less exploitable and more balanced. The "shaping" phase is already over, what we currently have is what we need to deal with... my point here is not saying Subs are good, balanced or enjoyable (that's up to you), but to tell you what can you do to deal with the situation you currently need to face. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
193
[-WD-]
Members
183 posts
14,870 battles
18 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

That's why I mentioned those aspects in my question. 

I'll admit, I only fully read and comprehended the first half of your question about an hour after posting my answer :Smile_facepalm:. I still would say the poor positioning and situational awareness of the submarine was the main driving factor in that engagement ending up the way it did. Target selection and movement are mechanics that are as impactful as shooting and dodging, as I'm sure you're aware.

18 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

understanding what those conditions are, is the root to understanding how to counterplay Submarines

I'm not convinced that is the root of the interaction. It's certainly very close to the root and a fundamental aspect of being successful in countering subs, but I think the core idea is more akin to understanding the goals of submarine play next to their strengths and weaknesses and using that understanding to pick out fundamental "choke points" or weak spots in their methodology which can then be exploited. It seems a bit nitpicky, but it's interesting imo to meticulously take apart this train of thought to come to a more complete and accurate understanding. I enjoy dissecting these things, and I appreciate your insights into the matter. 

22 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Of course there's no "one size fits all" tactic for the game (one reason why this is a great game), but having a base guideline upon which to build and branch out can be helpful.

It's of note that counterplay will evolve over time. More people will become terrifyingly good at subs, which necessitates different evolutions of counterplay. Right now spotting might be the biggest contribution a DD can make towards countering subs, but in the future I can see sub players adapting to that by intentionally positioning themselves in such a way that DDs can't use that spotting advantage effectively without sacrificing far too much HP. It'll be interesting to see how it evolves. 

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
398
[F4E]
Members
605 posts
10,553 battles
7 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Those are exactly the points I want to highlight:

  1. I take the chance because the Submarine has weak support
  2. If the Sub dives, he also breaks vision and I become immediately unspotted. That's why I make emphasis in not firing at the Sub
  3. You don't need to charge for a DC run, your objective is to spot the Sub for your team's Airstrikes.

I won't take an engagement that is not on my favor, why should I and why should you? It is fundamental to understand when you can make a play and when you shouldn't.

 My right flank melted and I had to move there to fill the gap, I wasn't able engage the Submarine again but you can be assured that as long as I remained in the area, the Sub would not be able to operate there because I would be blocking it (aka countering it). 

I've always been on the first line calling what's wrong with Subs, what exploits they have, what changes can be made to make them less exploitable and more balanced. The "shaping" phase is already over, what we currently have is what we need to deal with... my point here is not saying Subs are good, balanced or enjoyable (that's up to you), but to tell you what can you do to deal with the situation you currently need to face. 

I mean, what point are you trying to show with your point though?  That 1 in a 100 matches a DD is going to find a sub completely unsupported in the middle cap and can spot it and do no damage to the sub?  That you can briefly cap?

You don't assure me that as long as you remain in the area the sub would not be able to operate.  Rather, it's only as long as the other team provides 0 support to the middle cap can you prevent the sub from capping.  The moment any bit of support shows up, off you go.

I'm not saying you played that poorly, I'm just saying there is nothing special to it.

 

Imagine if I post a highlight video of my Yamato destroying a Hakuryu and saying how easy counter play a Yammy can counter play a CV.  If that video showed the Hak yoloing into a broadside, should we call that a good example?  Should we ignore the 99 other posts I could link where my Hak can get 3 torp drops per run and easily hit 6 torpedoes per flight on him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×