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HyperFish

Another dumb question.

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@Ahskance @El2aZeR @iDuckman

I don't understand why Demolition Expert isn't more highly rated for CV builds. 

Taking UK for example. Tier X Audacious has DE at 3 stars, but for Malta and Eagle the skill isn't rated. 

For the RU lines, Serov rates it 2 stars, Pobeda no stars, Chkalov no stars and Admiral Nak 1 star.

For US; Ranger, Lex and Midway rates 2 stars, but Hornet rates nil to spite the strength of the tactical squadron.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious. 

Edited by HyperFish

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It’s such a small buff to fire%% for rockets it’s not really useful on anything 

Fire chance for bombs is 5% and brit CV dropping a cluster of bombs meaning you will always set fires. Not every other CV has that luxury 

 

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1 hour ago, HyperFish said:

I don't understand why Demolition Expert isn't more highly rated for CV builds. 

Taking UK for example. Tier X Audacious has DE at 3 stars, but for Malta and Eagle the skill isn't rated. 

For the RU lines, Serov rates it 2 stars, Pobeda no stars, Chkalov no stars and Admiral Nak 1 star.

For US; Ranger, Lex and Midway rates 2 stars, but Hornet rates nil to spite the strength of the tactical squadron.

I'm not sure of the ratings you're looking at offhand, but the meat of the skill involves the +5% Fire Chance per Bomb hit.  Having HE Rockets to pair with HE Bombs gives more value, but Rockets aren't often expected to be a reliable source of Fires.

To remark on the UK CVs for an example methodology:

  1. Audacious lacks burst potential except on targets her bombers can full pen (UK/French/US BBs), so Demo Expert helps in providing more reliability.  If the bombs cluster well, you can strike with many at a time so there's an outsized impact from Demo Expert.  Double-Dipping with HE Rockets further incentivizes the skill.
     
  2. Eagle should enjoy having Demo Expert for similar reasons to those above, though it provides more reliable pen values with tactical squadrons.  Also, the double-dipping of torpedos can help highlight that as a damage option instead of fires which gives an alternate option for where to place your Commander points.  UK Torpedoes are not the hammers of the IJN line, but they are reliable while many of the CVs in the UK line are not considered very reliable.
     
  3. Malta has only HE Rockets to start fires with (outside of her secondaries which you ideally never use), so there is no need for this skill.  Malta depends on Torpedoes for the general heavy lifting as the AP Bombs are mostly for citadeling Cruisers or getting basic pen damage against Battleships, so skills which accept the Torpedo capabilities are more expected.
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3 hours ago, HyperFish said:

@Ahskance @El2aZeR @iDuckman

I don't understand why Demolition Expert isn't more highly rated for CV builds. 

Taking UK for example. Tier X Audacious has DE at 3 stars, but for Malta and Eagle the skill isn't rated. 

For the RU lines, Serov rates it 2 stars, Pobeda no stars, Chkalov no stars and Admiral Nak 1 star.

For US; Ranger, Lex and Midway rates 2 stars, but Hornet rates nil to spite the strength of the tactical squadron.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious. 

CVs don't have Demolition Expert.  I presume you mean Pyrotechnician?

There no "correct" build for a ship, much less for a class of ships.  In a way, that's the beauty of the skills system — admirals can configure the ships with different goals in mind.  You seem to be very Attack-oriented, which is fine once you get on target.  Others may want to get more planes on target in preference to a stronger munition.

In terms of wiki ratings, you also have to look at what else is on the tier.  On Malta, DE is an unrecommended three-point skill in competition with Armor and Survivability, both three stars.  (Besides Malta's bombers carry AP bombs. )  Eagle has HE bombs but the skill is in competition with three strong skills.  On Audacious, why the skill is so highly rated in the wiki (and in the client) I don't know.  You'd have to ask my CV experts. 

Oh!  I see Ahskance, the CV Expert at Large, has addressed the particulars.  ^^^

 

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7 hours ago, HyperFish said:

I don't understand why Demolition Expert isn't more highly rated for CV builds.

DoT in general takes a backseat to alpha strike for CV play, as such the value of DE as a skill naturally diminishes compared to skills which enhance your alpha capability or reliability (proxy fuze, sight stab, torp skills). This is because alpha is guaranteed while DoT is RNG based.

For example your standard Midway build looks like this:

image.png.a6a1ff599e176c505aa123932ddd570d.png

You cannot sacrifice anything up to number 4, these are your standard CV skills that are mandatory to pick.
Sight stab (6) enhances not only your capabilities across the board but increases your ability to turn attack with the DBs which is an extremely important tool in Midway's arsenal as it allows you to get more bombs on target via negating enemy maneuvers. 5, 7 and 8 allows your TBs to deal more damage and increase the odds of getting more torps on target, given that Midway TBs possess amongst the highest total alpha strike for CVs in the game this too is highly important. Sacrificing either for potentially getting 1-2 more fires per match is thus ill advised as you're trading guaranteed damage for a gamble that may or may not pay off.

There is also the point of diminishing returns. US bombs and rockets already have excellent fire chance (the former via just having a high base chance to begin with, the latter via sheer volume of fire at least in case of HVARs), enhancing it a bit further will not grant you many more fires per match in practice.

In case of most UK CVs, you can actually take DE if you'd like since they can forgo sight stab due to their base aiming time already being good enough and they're generally more reliant on DoT rather than alpha. Unfortunately said reliance on DoT is also one of the major aspects that makes them weak. All other CVs either have great alpha in combination with DoT or just better and more reliable alpha output.
The exception is Malta as her bombs are AP, so only her rockets will benefit as already pointed out before and their fire setting ability is not particularly important as you only really want to use those against DDs. In general if your CV has any AP ordinance you're better served with other skills for I believe obvious reasons.

RU CVs are generally better served with either bomber speed, sight stab and/or torp skills. What applies to US ordinance applies here again, the base chances are great so that a minor increase will not enhance your DoT ability much, so you're better served with enhancing your overall damage output.

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7 hours ago, Ahskance said:

I'm not sure of the ratings you're looking at offhand, but the meat of the skill involves the +5% Fire Chance per Bomb hit.  Having HE Rockets to pair with HE Bombs gives more value, but Rockets aren't often expected to be a reliable source of Fires.

To remark on the UK CVs for an example methodology:

  1. Audacious lacks burst potential except on targets her bombers can full pen (UK/French/US BBs), so Demo Expert helps in providing more reliability.  If the bombs cluster well, you can strike with many at a time so there's an outsized impact from Demo Expert.  Double-Dipping with HE Rockets further incentivizes the skill.
     
  2. Eagle should enjoy having Demo Expert for similar reasons to those above, though it provides more reliable pen values with tactical squadrons.  Also, the double-dipping of torpedos can help highlight that as a damage option instead of fires which gives an alternate option for where to place your Commander points.  UK Torpedoes are not the hammers of the IJN line, but they are reliable while many of the CVs in the UK line are not considered very reliable.
     
  3. Malta has only HE Rockets to start fires with (outside of her secondaries which you ideally never use), so there is no need for this skill.  Malta depends on Torpedoes for the general heavy lifting as the AP Bombs are mostly for citadeling Cruisers or getting basic pen damage against Battleships, so skills which accept the Torpedo capabilities are more expected.

To clarify, I'm comparing the recommended builds in the wiki.

For Furious

image.thumb.png.edb7d0866d6afdd00ba38a1d348a1faf.png

Audacious

image.thumb.png.0979506f528e1e8b5768a2d5f880b057.png

Malta

image.thumb.png.043316c6c89ff08f126caf731b771923.png

Eagle

image.thumb.png.d0da4042c2a443492908ca69051f5d47.png

 

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4 hours ago, iDuckman said:

CVs don't have Demolition Expert.  I presume you mean Pyrotechnician?

 

Probably, but when I mouse over the skill on the wiki it says DE.

image.png.c97ad9d402f0a6648a97554216cc76ca.png

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8 hours ago, HyperFish said:

Probably, but when I mouse over the skill on the wiki it says DE.

image.png.c97ad9d402f0a6648a97554216cc76ca.png

Good catch.  I'll have to fix that.

 

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