Why Are Subs Excluded From Operations?

[Avenge_December_7]

Evidently at this point WG, come [edited] or high water, spreadsheets or not, is ramming submarines down everybody's throat.

And yet, despite their determination to add submarines into WoWs, they also mysteriously appear to want to discourage using submarines in operations.

Not only are submarines currently excluded from random operations as a whole, but Operation Wolfpack is also excluded from the randomized operations roulette—you cannot conduct that operation unless you're in a division.

It's not like the argument of "submarines do not fit into operations well" applies here—plenty of ships that are ill-suited to ops like Pan-European destroyers are allowed, and if need be one could always place a limit on the number of submarines allowed. The AI is also capable of using ASW methods reasonably effectively, as demonstrated by Wolfpack.

I'd imagine quite a few submarine users would be more than happy to grind the lines in operations, while a significant number of others of the WoWs population would be very happy if submarines directed their attention towards AI ships instead of their human-controlled ships.

Why do you wish to inflict submarines on randoms so much, WG? Why does your pigheadedness on submarines suddenly vanish when operations appear?

 

 

 

 

 

[DrHolmes52]

Sub hand don't know what the operations hand is doing.

[surratus]

There were significant complaints from the AI bots in operations, something to the effect that "if you are going to add subs, give them a special game mode, not operations!"  Negotiations are in progress.

[Slimeball91]

55 minutes ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Not only are submarines currently excluded from random operations as a whole, but Operation Wolfpack is also excluded from the randomized operations roulette—you cannot conduct that operation unless you're in a division.

Wolfpack is a sub only op, so it can't be in the random queue with all of the other ship types.  WG isn't going to make a separate queue for a single op.  It would be nice if they would do that though.

58 minutes ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Why do you wish to inflict submarines on randoms so much, WG? Why does your pigheadedness on submarines suddenly vanish when operations appear?

DDs tend to be weak in ops, I imagine subs would be considerably weaker than DDs.  I just can't see subs working in the regular ops, so I'm glad they aren't included.  I understand and agree with your point about giving sub players another place to play without destroying randoms.  I'm not sure what the solution is. 

[Snargfargle]

2 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

DDs tend to be weak in ops, I imagine subs would be considerably weaker than DDs. 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Even CVs are weak in many ops. It seems that the best ship to take into them is a CL or fast-firing CA with torps.

[ArIskandir]

4 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Why do you wish to inflict submarines on randoms so much, WG?

Submarines are the quitessential predator type. As such, the thrill of hunting live prey is much more alluring than a simple target practice against bots.  

4 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Why does your pigheadedness on submarines suddenly vanish when operations appear?

Did you consider there may be significant technical issues to include them? The Ops were not designed to include Submarines. 

Having said that, I think the issue was addressed in yesterday stream and iirc it was told that they will be included soon. fake news, sorry.

[Counter_Gambit]

12 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

DDs tend to be weak in ops, I imagine subs would be considerably weaker than DDs.

Akizuki is the only exception to this rule. While all other DDs need a skilled hand to play them well in ops, Akizuki can do well in the hands of the average.

[derf_20]

18 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

 

DDs tend to be weak in ops, I imagine subs would be considerably weaker than DDs.  I just can't see subs working in the regular ops, so I'm glad they aren't included.  I understand and agree with your point about giving sub players another place to play without destroying randoms.  I'm not sure what the solution is. 

        yes    this

 

 

and there should be a mode that is sub free

[Slimeball91]

25 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Having said that, I think the issue was addressed in yesterday stream and iirc it was told that they will be included soon.

I see that as a bit of bad news.  The ops are already a questionable way to use you game play time, if subs are allowed in ops the overall winrate will drop even farther.  That would be a terrible move for WG.

[Ahskance]

48 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I think the issue was addressed in yesterday stream and iirc it was told that they will be included soon.

No, we did't have any update on Submarines in Operation content.  The stream mainly mentioned that Random Operations had returned, Submarines are not able to use the Random Operation function, and that Operation Wolfpack is still available for players who deliberately choose it.

It would be nice for submarines to be able to enter the Random Queue even if the only Operation available is Wolfpack, but we do not have that functionality in place.

[o4x4]

6 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

It would be nice for submarines to be able to enter the Random Queue even if the only Operation available is Wolfpack, but we do not have that functionality in place.

This is a good feature to add.

[ArIskandir]

9 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

No, we did't have any update on Submarines in Operation content.  The stream mainly mentioned that Random Operations had returned, Submarines are not able to use the Random Operation function, and that Operation Wolfpack is still available for players who deliberately choose it.

It would be nice for submarines to be able to enter the Random Queue even if the only Operation available is Wolfpack, but we do not have that functionality in place.

My bad sorry, I was distracted at the moment

[black_hull4]

2 hours ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Sub hand don't know what the operations hand is doing.

Sub hand could fill in a couple forms in triplicate requesting a third-party committee add a debate to their agenda on whether there’s grounds to start the process of commissioning an independent review on what part of the operation hand is up to.

[Musket22]

Any vessel that cannot fit into ALL types of battles is NOT READY for prime time!

[Farmers_Only]

What would a sub do in Killer Whale or Cherry Blossom where part of the mission is destroying land targets?

[Lord_Slayer]

3 minutes ago, Farmers_Only said:

What would a sub do in Killer Whale or Cherry Blossom where part of the mission is destroying land targets?

several ships are able to use secondaries on land targets.

Most subs have at least one deck gun. The I-56 has a player controlled gun and in the RU line of subs at least one is getting it there.

[Avenge_December_7]

22 minutes ago, Farmers_Only said:

What would a sub do in Killer Whale or Cherry Blossom where part of the mission is destroying land targets?

Target surface ships?

It's not like the land targets are the only objective.

Besides, like others have said, surface guns are a thing.

3 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

DDs tend to be weak in ops, I imagine subs would be considerably weaker than DDs.  I just can't see subs working in the regular ops, so I'm glad they aren't included.  I understand and agree with your point about giving sub players another place to play without destroying randoms.  I'm not sure what the solution is. 

I wouldn't say weak as much as too specialized. You aren't carrying an op in a destroyer, but you are able to do things like take out priority targets quickly with close-range torpedo strikes.

I suppose ultimately it's the baseline problem of WG trying to ram subs in despite their still not being ready for WoWs as a whole, not merely a single mode. Any solution is structurally flawed at its core, unfortunately.

[Blorgh2017]

2 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

several ships are able to use secondaries on land targets.

Most subs have at least one deck gun. The I-56 has a player controlled gun and in the RU line of subs at least one is getting it there.

IMO, asking a sub to use its puny deck gun would be an exercise in frustration, especially in Cherry Blossom where the enemy reinforcements will most likely just eat the sub alive before it can even get close enough to shoot at the land targets. Even if the sub somehow manages to stay afloat and actually bombard successfully, it'll most likely take ages for it to destroy ONE target, and I wager that the mission timer would run out first... unless there're other allies still afloat to shoot at the same land targets, but then the sub might as well as just stay out of the way.

And what about U-190, which doesn't even have any deck gun?

As much as I would love to see the subs in the regular Operations too, I feel like the subs just wouldn't fit there, because the Operations were designed without them in mind in the first place. Either WeeGee does another rework of the Operations to fit the subs in, OR the subs should get their own separate queue for the Wolfpack Operation.

[Blorgh2017]

2 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

I wouldn't say weak as much as too specialized. You aren't carrying an op in a destroyer, but you are able to do things like take out priority targets quickly with close-range torpedo strikes.

I suppose ultimately it's the baseline problem of WG trying to ram subs in despite their still not being ready for WoWs as a whole, not merely a single mode. Any solution is structurally flawed at its core, unfortunately.

In the past, I actually have seen few very skilled DD players who actually carried the team in the Operations. It's not easy for sure, but not impossible, I think. Of course, this was before the Operations rework, so I donno about these days... lol. 

Nevertheless, I agree with you 100% that the subs are just too specialized and may have trouble properly fitting into certain game modes, like the Operations. 

[dabot8]

Would be hilarious to watch a sub try destroy a fort in the Kiler Whale ops, its a pain for a DD to as is.

[FineousFingers]

There are a couple of issues I can see right off that would probably keep subs out of operations for now.

First, most of the operations use unique maps that would need to be modeled under water. That’s a time consuming process. 

Second, from my observations the bots in operations use different AI than in other modes. The AI would have to be coded and tested to account for submarines, which I’m sure is a VERY lengthy process. 

I would like to see a queue for Wolfpack though. 

[HyperFish]

4 hours ago, Musket22 said:

Any vessel that cannot fit into ALL types of battles is NOT READY for prime time!

Agreed. WG listen to this man, and bump the speed of subs and give them all manual deck guns so they can compete properly in operations!!!

Flagging @Ahskance to pass the message up the chain. It's the will of the people right here!

[Lord_Slayer]

5 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Most subs have at least one deck gun.

 

2 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

And what about U-190, which doesn't even have any deck gun?

I said most had a gun.

just like most cruisers have secondary guns.

[Blorgh2017]

1 minute ago, Lord_Slayer said:

 

I said most had a gun.

just like most cruisers have secondary guns.

I know you said that.

What I meant was asking what can the poor U-190 can do against any land targets in the Operations. Of course, the answer is "absolutely nothing," which is simply bad and not acceptable.

If you ask me, just because most subs have deck guns to use against the land targets, it doesn't mean that the ship type as a whole would be just fine as they are for the Operations. Not to mention all the other things that I implied in my previous post; i.e. the subs trying to use their deck guns would most likely be a fruitless endeavor.

[Estimated_Prophet]

8 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Even CVs are weak in many ops. It seems that the best ship to take into them is a CL or fast-firing CA with torps.

I prefer Ark Royal or Ryujo for Killer Whale; though that’s likely a dead and gone dream now.

5 hours ago, Farmers_Only said:

What would a sub do in Killer Whale or Cherry Blossom where part of the mission is destroying land targets?

 

2 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

I know you said that.

What I meant was asking what can the poor U-190 can do against any land targets in the Operations. Of course, the answer is "absolutely nothing," which is simply bad and not acceptable.

If you ask me, just because most subs have deck guns to use against the land targets, it doesn't mean that the ship type as a whole would be just fine as they are for the Operations. Not to mention all the other things that I implied in my previous post; i.e. the subs trying to use their deck guns would most likely be a fruitless endeavor.

Camp the North corners and shotgun kek the bots before they can move much.