The other guys: big (paper) ships from smaller nations

[JeeWeeJ]

Right, this topic is dedicated to large warships built or planned by other (smaller) nations. The ships built by the big countries might be better known, but quite a few countries had, or ordered, battleships and battlecruisers to defend themselves with. Being Dutch myself, i'll start with two projects my country started to get some big ships of its own. :)

 

Battleship plan 1912

In the years before the outbreak of the first world war, the Dutch government became concerned about the naval expansion of the Japanese fleet during and following the Russo-Japanese war. As The Dutch Indies (now Indonesia) were of considerable economic importance to the Dutch economy, plans were made to enlarge the fleet protecting the colonies. In 1912, the then minister of naval affairs J. Wentholt came up with the plan "Panzerschip 1912" (roughly translated into Armoured ship 1912) which called for the  construction of four armoured cruisers armed with 11" guns. However the navy was against this plan, which it deemed inadequate, and wanted bigger and stronger ships.

 

This caused quite a stir in parliament and ultimately forced the minister to resign. The new minister (then under the new name "minister of war", now called minister of defence) wasted no time and formed a committee for the design and construction of 9 battleships, to counter the Japanese threat. They were to have a displacement of 21,000 tonnes, top speed of 21 knots, an armored belt of 250mm (where 300mm was more common) and armed with 8 13" guns.

 

At first, only the German Krupp-Germania company (which was already constructing the German Kaiser class dreadnoughts) was contacted to make three preliminary designs for these ships: Fully oil fired, fully coal fired and mixed oil-coal firing. Oil firing was preffered, even though oil (and the infrastructure for it) was still scarce within the Dutch colonial empire.

 

Among the designs that followed, this beauty came along. As far as i can tell, this is one of the first modern battleship designs with two quadruple turrets, just like the later French Richelieu and Dunkerque class battleships. The French Lyon class with 4 4-barreled turrets was designed in the same period, but also never built.

 

http://www.netherlan...sign_1913_b.JPG

HERE you can find a 3D redering of this vessel. (Dutch site, but the video speaks for itself!)

 

As The Netherlands did not have experience with properly designing and building capital ships, a large number of international shipbuilding companies were contacted to assist in the design and to ultimately construct the ships. Of these, only Krupp-Germania (builders of the German Kaiser class), Blohm & Voss and Vickers came with designs which were

seriously considered by the Dutch government. By 1914 the max dispacement had risen to around 28,000 tonnes and the guns enlarged to 8 14"/L45 in four twin turrets and the engines would run on mixed coal and oil firing with a top speed of 22 knots. Armor was still the weak, battlecruiser like, with a maximum thickness of 250mm.

 

In the end...

In July 1914 a bill had been passed for the funding of the ships (order was scaled down to 5 or 7) and even though there was still some discussion going about which design to choose (even though the Krupp-Germania design was apparently preffered), the first keel would been laid down in December of that year with the ships being completed in 1918.

However, the War spoiled those plans and no keels were ever laid down. In 1920 and 1921 a new Royal Commission investigated the need for new ships to defend the Dutch colonial empire, but did not recommend to construct battleships. This ruling, combined with the growing pacifist movement of that time pretty much killed off the project...until the

1930 battlecruiser project came along (more on that later).

 

In hindsight

The latest designs of the Dutch dreadnoughts were relatively up to spec with dreadnoughts or battlecruisers of other nations, except in one area: armor and seconday guns. Due to the relatively small dispacement of 21,000 to 28,000 tonnes, weight was saved by using a less thick armoured belt. In that respect these ships were comparable to the Japanese Kongo class battlecruisers gun and armor wise, but much slower.

 

To sum it up: not enough armor and guns for a battleship and too slow for a battlecruiser. But maybe the relative large amout of ships (5 to 9 planned ships) might have made up for that...we'll never know!

 

 

So...How about some battlecruisers?

In the 1930's the navy once again became convinced that the two light WW1 cruisers of the Java class, a fleet of submarines and a few old armored gunboats were not enough to protect the Dutch Indies agains possible Japanese aggression. It was believed that if a war with Japan broke out, it would send the bulk of its large ships to fight the Americans and the British, leaving their cruisers to fight the Dutch forces. So the Dutch navy began a project to aquire three "super cruisers" along the "stronger than faster, faster than stronger" line of thought.

 

Dutch intelligence did not expect the Japanese cruisers to be escorted by carriers, so even the threat of these ships in port (as a fleet in being) would be enough to discourage the Japanese of invading Dutch territory.

 

Design

In 1939 the go-ahead was given to begin the planning and design of these ships. Top speed was to be 32 knots, 9 11"guns in three turrets and a considerable secondary battery of dual purpose 120mm guns and 40mm AA guns.

 

http://www.netherlan...cruiser/BC9.jpg

As with the dreadnoughts, the Dutch were incapable of designing a modern capital ship so they turned to other countries. At first they turned to the French in the hope that they would release plans to their Dunkerque class battleships. But as this turned out to be a futile effort, the Dutch turned to their easterly neighbours: Nazi Germany.

After a number of rounds of negotiations, the Germans agreed to release rough schematics of "a battlecruiser in line with the German school of shipbuilding" (which looked A LOT like the Scharnhorst class). At first this was even without the armor protection scheme but after later negotiations these were also released except the part below the water line.

The Dutch faced two problems with the German design:

• They did not trust the all-diesel propulsion system and favoured a steam turbine setup. (but there wasnt enough room in the design)

• The design totally lacked torpedo defences as the Germans refused to release these.

The first problem was to be solved by enlarging the engine room, but this ment sacrificing armour to keep within the 16,000 tonnes displacement limit. (as the Dutch were not involved with the naval treaties, they did not have to adhere to the 10,000 tonnes limit for cruisers)

The second problem was solved with the help of the Italians. They gave the Dutch permission to inspect their Vittorio Veneto battleship and its protection scheme AND the Italians knew a thing or two about the German Scharnhorst. The result of this trip was a complete rework of the internal subdivision of the ship and resulted in better protection against magnetic torpedoes with the use of a reworked double bottom. The latter had to be abandoned however, as it would exceed the maximum draft specified.

 

And in the end...part 2

Up to March 1940 Dutch delegations went to Berlin to discuss the designs with 1944 as an estimated delivery year for the first ship, but just like with the dreadnoughts, war reared its ugly head and things ground to a halt. In May of that same year, Germany invaded The Netherlands so you could say that all work was for nothing.

 

1047 class compared to the Scharnhorst class

In contrast to the earlier dreadnought designs, the class 1047 would be one of the finest battlecruisers designed in that time. It's armor would be a bit weaker than its Scharnhorst counterpart, but in all other aspects it would have been better. More reliable engines, twin smokestacks which improved engine performance even further, better elevation for the main guns, far superior anti-air systems (the 40mm Bofors emplacements with Hazemeyer mounts were also used on Dutch destroyers, and were later copied by the British and Americans to become the Mark IV twin mount (RN) and MK 1 and 2 guns for the USN...some of the most effective AA guns of the war). Also the use of dual purpose secondary guns instead of single purpose enhanced its effectivenes even further.

 

Concluding / TL;DR

For a small navy (with a big history i might add) the Dutch had big plans for big ships, but every time they were ready to place the order war broke out.

Their effectiveness in WW2 if they had been built would have been questionable though. Especially considering Japanese airpower and the use of long lance torpedoes. MAYBE that the battle of the Java sea would have turned out differently, but that's a big if.

 

Thank you for reading, and i hope to see some more lesser known beauties on these forums! :)

 

Sources:

Wikipedia (plan 1912)

Wikipedia (class 1047)

Netherlandsnavy.nl (plan 1912)

Netherlandsnavy.nl (class 1047)

[mr3awsome]

I would play Dutch Ships

[JeeWeeJ]

So would i, but it would be a pretty short shiptree though.. Some destroyers, some light cruisers and these big ships...thats about it! (not counting the subs ofcourse) ;)

They could be part of a multinational shiptree with ships from various smaller navies, that would be fun!

[mr3awsome]

1) No subs (confirmed)

2) it would be better to have many smaller trees as apposed to a WoT Team Europe style tree

[Cpt_Kill_Jack]

Battleships sadly are a thing of the past. At least until the navy gets their hands on a practicle rail gun design.

[Megan_Fox]

serious ship

[AL_Gascogne]

I'd play with the 1912 and 1047; even if Premium. 1047 looks like a fine and fun battlecruiser.

[JeeWeeJ]

Well, i just found another beauty on Wikipedia, i dont really have as much info on these ships as i had on the Dutch plans, so please feel free to fill in or correct me. :)

 

The España class battleship

After the Spanish-American war of 1898, Spain's navy had taken some serious losses and desperately needed new ships. However, Spain was lacking the money and resources to rebuild, so it was until 1908 that a bill was passed which included the construction of three new battleships. This delay in rebuiding proved to be an advantage to the navy, as Great Brittain had just completed its HMS Dreadnought and the US was working on its USS South Carolina. So Spain began working on getting its own dreadnoughts.

 

These new Spanish dreadnoughts were to become the España class.

 

Size matters?

During the design is was made clear that:

1. The ships were to be armed with eight 12" guns

2. The ships were to fit in existing docks

 

As Spain did not have experience with designing and building dreadnoughts, the British companies Armstrong and John Brown were contracted for the design and construction of the ships and the shipyards.

 

Because the ships had to fit into existing docks, they were shorter than the average dreadnought. This, combined with four big turrets resulted in sacrefices in armour and speed to save weight (and costs). The turret layout was "en echelon" with turrets on the front, back and sides of the ship. This also saved weight and costs when compared to a superfiring layout. It also gave the advantage of aiming maximal 6 guns while pursuing an enemy

 

The Ships

In total three ships were built: The España, Alfonso XIII and the Jaime I.

 

The España was the first to be completed in 1913 and the only time she saw action was during the Rif war in Marocco, where she provided fire support for ground troops. During these operations she ran aground and could not be refloated while fully equipped. She was stripped of armor, machinery, guns and ammunition afdter which her hull could be refloated. Unfortunately, while she was towed back to Spain she was struck by a number of violent storms which considerably worsened the damage to her hull, which broke in two and sank.

 

The Alfonso XIII was completed in 1915 and also saw action during the Rif war. During the Spanish civil war she first became part of the Republican Navy and was given the name of her lost sister: España.

During the war she fell to the nationalist forces and was used to drive back numerous Republican and foreign mechant ships. In the end, she hit a mine while turning away a British ship. She went down with the loss of 5 men.

 

The Jaime I was the last ship to be completed in 1921, because of a lack of resources due to WW1. Like her sisters she saw action in the Rif war and was used by the Republican forces during the Spanish civil war. She was the only one to disable/destroy a ship: the Nationalist gunboat Dato which buned down (but was later recovered and upgraded by the Nationalists). She survived an air attack by Nationalist forces, but found her end a year later due to an "accidental internal explosion and fire". Sabotage was suspected but never proven.

Even though she was refloated, she was damaged beyond repair and was scrapped.

 

http://upload.wikime...ime1-España.jpg

 

Compared to other dreadnoughts

Compared to other dreadnoughts the España class would have been no match in ship to ship combat. Because of the limitation on their size and displacement, they were slow (max 16 knots) and severely lacked armor. Because of this they cant really be seen as proper battleships, but more as heavy, affordable, coastal defence ships which could dock at most (if not all) of Spains naval harbours.

 

And this role they fulfilled quite well.

[mr3awsome]

I have an encyclopedia of Battleships so that should have some gems in.

[mr3awsome]

short list - ships that were built

Sverige Class

De Zeven Provincien

Rivadavia

Minas Gerais class

Rio de Janerio (HMS Agincourt)

Reshadieh (HMS Erin)

[mr3awsome]

Sverige Class

the 3 ships of the Sverige Class (Sverige, Drottningen Victoria and Gustav V) were built by Sweden to increase the enemies (Primarily Russia) risk in an invasion of Sweden by forcing them to deploy their own battleships to counter this class.

 

Sverige was paid for by public donations, whilst the other two ships were paid for by the Government.  

 

Sverige was commissioned in 1917 whilst the others were finished in 1921 and 1922 respectively. The other 2 ships were slightly longer than Sverige and were equipped with 2 shafts rather than Sverige's 4 with different machinery as well.  Drottningen Victoria and Gustav V also had ice-breaking stems rather than rams.

 

All three ships looked significantly different from each other after modernisation: Gustav V's 2 funnels were combined into a single one, Sverige received an S-shaped fore funnel whilst Drottningen Victoria retained her 2 upright funnels, each's fire control directories differed along with their Anti Aircraft armament.   

 

Stats:

 

Length -  392.8ft (Sverige) 396.6 (Drottningen Victoria and Gustav V)

Beam - 61ft

Draught - 22ft

 

Armament:

 

As Built

2 X 2 283mm Bofors M1912

1 X 2 152mm Bofors M1912

6 X 1 152mm Bofors M1912

4 X 1 75mm Bofors M1912

2 X 1 75mm Bofors AA M1915

2 X 1 57mm Bofors M1916

2 X 1 6.5mm MG M1914

2 X 1 457mm Torpedo tubes M1914

 

WWII  

2 X 2 283mm Bofors M1912

1 X 2 152mm Bofors M1916

4 X 1 152mm Bofors M1916

2 X 2 75mm  AA guns M1928

3 X 2 40mm Bofors AA M1936

2 X 2 25mm Bofors AA M1932

3 X 1 20mm Bofors AA M1940

2 X 2 8mm AA MG M1936

 

Propulsion

 

Sverige

12 Yarrow Boilers

2 Kockums-Curtis Ungeared turbines

4 three-bladed propellers

20,000HP/22.5knots

 

Drottningen Victoria/Gustav V

12 Yarrow Boilers

2 Motala-Westinghouse geared turbines

2 three-bladed propellers

22,000HP/23.2knots

 

Armour:

 

Main Belt - 200mm max, 60mm min, 150mm average

Deck - 45mm

Main Turrets - 203mm front, 102mm Side, 111mm rear

Secondary Turrets - 127mm front, 76mm side, 76mm rear

Barettes - 152mm

Control tower - 175mm max, 60mm min, 100mm average  

 

Complement:

 

As Built - 427

After Modernisation -  450

[JeeWeeJ]

Thats a nice boat!

 

http://www.navypedia...en/sw_bb_35.gif

 

And with all those Bofors guns, you'd almost think that Bofors is a Swedish company..

[grimzod]

Cpt_Kill_Jack, on 19 August 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Battleships sadly are a thing of the past. At least until the navy gets their hands on a practicle rail gun design.

We've already reached that milestone.  Testing in progress.

[mr3awsome]

I finished the post on the Sverige Class

[JeeWeeJ]

Awesome fact about the Sverige class: the first ship was entirely paid by donations from the people as the government was reluctant to spend money on its navy. So litterally a ship "by the people, for the people"!

[mr3awsome]

and the Government named the ship Sverige in their honour

[Eyeless_Camper]

JeeWeeJ, on 21 August 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Thats a nice boat!

http://www.navypedia...en/sw_bb_35.gif

And with all those Bofors guns, you'd almost think that Bofors is a Swedish company..

Bofors is a Swedish Company O.o

[JeeWeeJ]

Eyeless_Camper, on 23 August 2012 - 07:40 PM, said:

Bofors is a Swedish Company O.o

You don't say! ;)

[Jumarka]

Greetings from Argentina!

There was a time when my country was wealthy enough as to order two battleships.

 

Class Rivadavia

 

Name: Rivadavia - Moreno

Laying of Keels: 1910

Finished: 1914-1915

Displacement: 28,000 tons standard, 31,000 tons full load

Propulsion: Curtis steam turbines, 18 boilers Babcock; 45000 Hp, 3 propellers, 23 knots

Protection: Waist, 280-100mm, decks, 38 +75 mm; barbettes 305mm; towers, 305-75mm; conning tower, 305mm

Armament: 12 x 305mm, 12 x 152mm, 4 x 76mm AA, 4 x 40mm AA, two 533mm torpedo tubes

Crew: 1050-1215

 

The two Rivadavia class battleships were commissioned in response to the construction in Britain of "dreadnoughts" for Brazil, Argentina's main rival at the time. The Rivadia and Moreno were built in the United States, so that their project had features common to the American battleships of the time, but also with European influences. The American influence can be seen in the towers superimposed fore and aft and lattice boom, but the arrangement of the side towers was reminiscent of the "dreadnoughts" British school of Neptune and Hercules, while the heavy secondary battery of 152mm accommodated the German custom. The protection system was similar in general to that of the British battleships, adding background armor.

 

These vessels were projected to a relatively high speed of 23 knots and the disposition of the propulsion plant was clearly influenced by the Italian Dante Alighieri. Three propellers were installed, with the boiler fore and aft of the engine room, which remained at the center provision that favored broad sectors of fire for the central towers.

 

Both ships were modernized in the United States in 1924-25, modified boilers to burn fuel, aft pole turned into tripod and 76mm anti-aircraft guns installed. In 1940 they added 4 40mm AA guns, but by then these ships had already limited military value. They were sold for scrap in 1957 after having served the Armada Argentina over 40 years. The funds gained at their sale were used to adquire our 1st aircraft carrier.

 

Rivadavia on speed trials.

 

http://www.histarmar...1925DEHNx11.jpg

 

Artillery training on 1916, cruiser "9 of July" tows a 6 meter tall target. Found these pictures while looking for material for the "25 de Mayo" CA article i was writing. A very good site, (if you can understand spanish) - http://www.histarmar.com.ar/index.htm

 

http://www.histarmar...a/Tiro-2x10.jpg

 

http://www.histarmar...a/Tiro-1x10.jpg

[JeeWeeJ]

Wow, pretty ship! I read somewhere that Argentina and Brazil had something like an armsrace just like the one between Great Brittain and Germany (but on a more limited scale?), hard to imagine now.

[xthetenth]

Chile got involved too. The Almirante Latorre and Cochrane got sold to Britain though.

[Jumarka]

The Chilean Navy commissioned two battleships with artillery of 10 x 356mm guns to Britain in 1910/1911.

Completing the "Almirante La Torre" in 1915. But the outbreak of World War 1 prevented delivery of the ships. Being commissioned in the Royal Navy under the name "Canada", the ship participated in the war and was later (in 1920) finally delivered to Chile.

The other ship, named "Almirante Cochrane" was never completed as a battleship, being bought by Britain and finished as the aircraft carrier HMS Eagle.

[Coldt]

I wish their were enough maximum battleship designs to round out the tier 10 of of at least 6-10 major naval powers.  I'd love to see Tillman ships playable alongside an America class carrier.  I'll do some digging to see how many of these lolwowhuge ships I can find.

[Icescreamman]

JeeWeeJ, on 19 August 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

So would i, but it would be a pretty short shiptree though.. Some destroyers, some light cruisers and these big ships...thats about it! (not counting the subs ofcourse) ;)
They could be part of a multinational shiptree with ships from various smaller navies, that would be fun!

The Dutch have a rich sea-going history, I don't see any problem in a potential tech tree for one of the smaller powers that contained ship-types that originated elsewhere. A little research would most likely prove those nations would have made enough unique changes for their own navies use that many might easily be considered variants separate from the original type.   WG has a precedent too, you might remember the the Warsaw-pact originated Type 59 in the Chinese tree in WOT, or the various British tanks adopted by the Soviets.

[JeeWeeJ]

Yeah, Dutch ships could be used in the British and German trees, as both those nations used them (some fled to the UK, some were captured by the Germans). I've tried to build a multinational tree HERE, but finding proper high-tier ships and CV's is pretty tough...as most countries stopped building large ships after WW1.