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SunkCostFallacy

Removal of Subs from COOP

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Let me be clear: I don't think that <whoever owns/runs WOWS> is going to remove subs from COOP. Nor do I think that they are going to take any real notice of this post. But these are the thoughts that come to mind when you're being spam pinged by a bot sub while trying to avoid incoming fire from five enemy bots and to kill those bots to reduce the volume of incoming fire. Mostly I'm posting this for the LOLs and to highlight some pretty noteworthy flaws.

@Ahskance has posted videos on how to deal with subs. Mostly they involve disengaging, maneuvering, etc. As we know, Random is the primary game mode and all units are balanced for that, to the extent that they are balanced. Those tactics are perfectly logical and usable in Random matches which last a great deal longer than COOP matches, and in which the enemy team are NOT playing like bots.

The anti-sub tactics are not a viable in COOP given the feeding frenzy meta which currently applies. The enemy team ARE bots and their current behavior is to push, often to an unexpected location. As a result if a player is pinged by a sub, and the player then turns away and runs from the sub ... the player is going to get NO value from the match. By the time the player has disengaged, relocated to another attack vector, and began to reengage ... most of the enemy bots will be dead or nearly so. In other words: Very little XP and not a lot of fun.

Additionally the use of Damage Control is, judging by Ahskhance's videos, under less pressure in Randoms than it is in COOP where you may well have more than half the enemy team shooting at you. That's the way it looks to me, but I really don't know as I don't play Random.

Given those two points, it's clear that subs are set up for Randoms, and that set up is inappropriate for COOP.

Let the discussion start:

Are my points above valid?

As an aside ... has anyone come up with COOP friendly anti-sub tactics?

 

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The worst part of bot subs is they make the match last longer without the playing the objectives benefit because they force you off with that ping spam. At least a bot isn't smart enough to hide when they are the last of their team and time is in their favor.

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I just plow through, but then again I play a lot of Battleships for Co-Op.  Those torpedoes to me are wet noodles.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

The worst part of bot subs is they make the match last longer without the playing the objectives benefit because they force you off with that ping spam. At least a bot isn't smart enough to hide when they are the last of their team and time is in their favor.

That the idiot bot subs continue to ping when they can’t even launch torpedoes, is more annoying than the actual metal fishes.

22 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I just plow through, but then again I play a lot of Battleships for Co-Op.  Those torpedoes to me are wet noodles.

I don’t worry about them too much; mostly by paying attention to the mini map.

In co-op, subs are mirrored, so I move accordingly.

I really don’t have much trouble from bot subs, in any ship type. Battleships especially tend to eat up with their HE and secondaries.

I also pay attention to visible subs in the main UI. If they aren’t facing me, (bow or stern,) I don’t worry too much.

U-2501 in particular; the safest place to be is behind it.

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55 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

That the idiot bot subs continue to ping when they can’t even launch torpedoes, is more annoying than the actual metal fishes.

At least you get a rough estimate for its whereabout. I can see if things will get worse if the sub stop telling you its whereabout by pinging or dive deeper, dragging on the game for longer.

Edited by a252

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I just plow through, but then again I play a lot of Battleships for Co-Op.  Those torpedoes to me are wet noodles.

I have started going nose into them and using the damage saturation exploit to destroy subs, usually by ramming since the ASW stuff seems too bothersome and shooting them with guns is problematic. 

Edited by Taylor3006

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I just plow through, but then again I play a lot of Battleships for Co-Op.  Those torpedoes to me are wet noodles.

It is more of an issue when a player commanded sub does the pinging because it forces you to react even if they have no ability to attack. This is why I think that having any ship that sees subs unable to defend themselves is a mistake.

 

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2 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

I have started going nose into them and using the damage saturation exploit to destroy subs, usually by ramming since the ASW stuff seems too bothersome and shooting them with guns is problematic. 

I was playing a Cruiser couple days ago and ate a bunch of submarine torpedoes... For a grand total of about 26k in my High Tier Cruiser.  It hurt, but I was fine.  Had I taken that in a Battleships who all tend to have far better TDS, it would be even less.  The Damage Saturation thing works also but I get wary at times.  I've been detonated in my Battleships by bow torpedo impacts.

1.  A Tier VII DD player in Random Battles rushed me around an island for a YOLO Torp Run against my Musashi.  I anticipated it and was already turning away.  I blasted him but I knew he got torpedoes off.  I evaded all of them except 1 that hit on my bow just forward of the first turret.  It detonated my about 75% HP Musashi.

2.  Another example was in Co-Op.  I was playing a CV in the RTS era and was doing a torp run against a pretty healthy Bot Tirpitz.  Several torpedoes hit, but 2 hit the bow area and detonated the Tirpitz.

 

If my BB has very high TDS, without exposing my broadside to get Citadeled, I'll try to take the hit on the TDS / Torpedo Bulge.  Yamato-class, Amagi, South Dakota-class for example have great TDS values.

Given a choice, I'll happily take 100% submarine torpedo hits on my Battleship instead of showing my broadsides to get Citadeled.  Any day of the week.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Personally I don't understand the players who are playing these things in COOP. It isn't good practice for Randoms and it appears to be a hiding to nothing in terms of any rewards from playing them. I've checked stats of sub players subs and they are almost uniformly less than inspiring, mostly downright awful. I don't get it, banging your head against a brick wall hurts, keep doing it and it continues to hurt, there is an easy way to stop the hurt. Then you get the div of subs... ugh. 

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I think that the problem with sub in COOP is, in part, the distraction factor.

Case in point:

I had two matches on the Mountain Range map today. In both matches I spawned in the south in the middle of the map, with a sub right in front of me. Both matches I was in my Salem.

The first match I decided to head west and avoid potential entanglement with the bot sub ... so I steamed towards the A cap. Halfway there the enemy sub started pinging and spamming torps at me. I turned north, fired up my Acoustic Search, and found the sub and sunk it. Once that was done ... with about 28k in damage, I looked for something else to shoot ... by the time I was in position to do some damage, the game was over.

The second match I decided to head north into the B cap. And of course so did the :etc_swear: sub. Ping and torp spam ... with the added bonus of having 4 of the enemy ships firing at me. So with 5 total units pumping potential damage at me I had to kill the sub, and then start trying to farm damage. I think I got about 45k in that match. In that match I was bow on to the sub, and just ate the torps rather than give my broadside to the 4 surface ships who were firing at me.

Now let's boil it down: In matches on that map, with that spawn, I almost always get over 100k in damage ... If I'm not being bugged by subs.

If I ignore the sub and focus on the bot ships, then I'll get nibbled to death by homing torps ... but if I prioritise the sub, then I get significantly less XP because subs in their current incarnation take time to find and then several salvos to kill.

I've also tried hanging back ... let everything else go forward and get the aggro (so to speak) and just shoot stuff from range. I can get decent XP doing that (70 to 80k range on that map/spawn) but it's just not as much FUN.

I think it's just going to stay that way until the meta changes, if it ever does.

 

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25 minutes ago, Efros said:

Personally I don't understand the players who are playing these things in COOP. It isn't good practice for Randoms and it appears to be a hiding to nothing in terms of any rewards from playing them. I've checked stats of sub players subs and they are almost uniformly less than inspiring, mostly downright awful. I don't get it, banging your head against a brick wall hurts, keep doing it and it continues to hurt, there is an easy way to stop the hurt. Then you get the div of subs... ugh. 

Submarines are something different to do every now and then, I have fun using them here and there, but make no mistake their performance is poorer than a typical surface ship in Co-Op.  They fare even worse if the players around them are very aggressive.  If the other players are more timid, then there's the chance to get a good game.  For Co-Op, Subs are even worse to play as than CVs.

==========

As for dealing with Bot Subs, they are not a concern.  They're meat on the table.  Since I play a lot of Battleships, I can hit them from afar.

 

EZ Peazy.

 

Like Destroyers, their HP pool is low, so any hits and damage you get in on them is very rewarding.

 

They are not a concern.  They are XPs and Credits waiting to be picked up.

 

The Bot Subs are supremely stupid.  You see them most of the time casually sailing along at the surface.

 

This is Co-Op guys.  This isn't hard.  Come on, now.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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Mostly they are annoying.  I had a game Thursday where a sub pinged me for like 4 minutes.  And didn't fire a single torpedo.

WTH is that.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Submarines are something different to do every now and then, I have fun using them here and there, but make no mistake their performance is poorer than a typical surface ship in Co-Op.  They fare even worse if the players around them are very aggressive.  If the other players are more timid, then there's the chance to get a good game.  For Co-Op, Subs are even worse to play as than CVs.

As for dealing with Bot Subs, they are not a concern.  They're meat on the table.  Since I play a lot of Battleships, I can hit them from afar.

EZ Peazy.

Like Destroyers, their HP pool is low, so any hits and damage you get in on them is very rewarding.

They are not a concern.  They are XPs and Credits waiting to be picked up.

The Bot Subs are supremely stupid.  You see them most of the time casually sailing along at the surface.

This is Co-Op guys.  This isn't hard.  Come on, now.

That one,low value sub, could be a BB.........  Sub value and BB value aren't the same.  It's why having 6 light combatants isn't any fun either:  it's not the same as have 4 additional CA's or BB's out there for "value...."

Remember, players using COOP might never play Randoms.......  So, every "point of value" is more important to that part of our market segment (PVE) than a new player in PVP....

Less farming value for PVP players "playing down" for Farm Event damage as well.....  Which, increases the manic rush forward to kill as fast as you can attitudes we sometimes face, which, decreases a PVE mains desires to play in PT....

I am playing less and less now.  And, back to F2P; so,............game quality is more important than "for sale gimmicks" because I am NOT spending any money anymore .   

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with how much subs keep changing I imagine coding the AI to play them is lagging behind, and once a final implementation is chosen, the AI tuning will occur...

 

i could be wrong though...

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They aren't subs.  They are so removed from the role and capabilities of the vessels they're sorta' patterned after that they just don't fit at all in the game. 

The limited movement capability ambush predator that they were isn't represented at all and their tactical advantages just can't be "expressed" in a short duration (even randoms are too short a duration) arcade style shoot 'em up.

No point in complaining about them as submarines since they're even more paper than the usual paper boats that get trotted out.

I have no issue in general with paper boats if they're fun, but WG has completely missed the "fun" mark for subs and they're spending huge amounts of time trying to force it to work.

I hope they can salvage something with subs, but I'm not seeing the iterative tuning process heading in any direction that will help.

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I'm also for the removal of submarines from the game.

I sailed as one recently for Naval Battles and ended up #4 on the chart simply by pinging and launching torpedoes it was a real snorefest and the only thing that really took a hit was my karma.  :Smile_veryhappy:

There's also no real defense against them except to bow tank the torps in a BB, however; that's situational especially if your citadel is especially squishy (I'm looking at you RU BB line!) and while it was uniquely unlucky the sub blew up my T9 RU BB because I couldn't bow tank the torps without revealing my squishy side to the T10 Italian BB.

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13 hours ago, SunkCostFallacy said:

Are my points above valid?

 

Yep.  And let me add that coop can't be much fun for sub players, either.  They almost always score near the bottom of the team.  I can't recall ever seeing one in the top third, and even carriers manage to do that once in a blue moon.  

Subs sadden me.  All the resources WG wasted on developing them.  All the time spent adding underwater terrain to the maps, instead of creating new maps for everyone to enjoy.  The ridiculous broken physics and unrealistic gameplay.  The constant distractions ("We've spotted an enemy submarine!", forcing you to look for the threat only to learn that it's on the other side of the map).  The slow game play at the end of a match when a sub is the last surviving enemy ship.  The fact that DDs, historically the most effective ASW ships, turn out to be the LEAST effective because they have to physically drive over the sub, while bigger ships have air strikes.

And all for what?  Do subs solve some problem in PVP?  Are they attracting new players?  Do they improve player retention?

Or are they still in the game because some manage at WG isn't willing to admit his idea was bad from the start?
 

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7 hours ago, Efros said:

Personally I don't understand the players who are playing these things in COOP. It isn't good practice for Randoms and it appears to be a hiding to nothing in terms of any rewards from playing them. I've checked stats of sub players subs and they are almost uniformly less than inspiring, mostly downright awful. I don't get it, banging your head against a brick wall hurts, keep doing it and it continues to hurt, there is an easy way to stop the hurt. Then you get the div of subs... ugh. 

I have asked this several times in various Co Op matches and when they have bothered to respond the answer I have gotten every time except once (that person stated they were in Co Op by mistake)  they got a lot of enjoyment from  the Salty reaction they get from the player base.

 

Cirran

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Submarines are something different to do every now and then, I have fun using them here and there, but make no mistake their performance is poorer than a typical surface ship in Co-Op.  They fare even worse if the players around them are very aggressive.  If the other players are more timid, then there's the chance to get a good game.  For Co-Op, Subs are even worse to play as than CVs.

==========

As for dealing with Bot Subs, they are not a concern.  They're meat on the table.  Since I play a lot of Battleships, I can hit them from afar.

 

EZ Peazy.

 

Like Destroyers, their HP pool is low, so any hits and damage you get in on them is very rewarding.

 

They are not a concern.  They are XPs and Credits waiting to be picked up.

 

The Bot Subs are supremely stupid.  You see them most of the time casually sailing along at the surface.

 

This is Co-Op guys.  This isn't hard.  Come on, now.

Your agenda/personal opinion on BBs and Co Op is showing.

 

Cirran

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Homing torps are just not a fun weapon to get attacked by. If you want to avoid them, it means devoting all of your attention to avoiding them- other weapons you can plan ahead for, because you know roughly where they'll come from and position accordingly most of the time. Dodging homing torps successfully pretty much requires you to: A. sail as close to flat broadside to the torps as possible, and B. put your rudder hard over at the last moment. That isn't always possible. It's like dodging a ramming attempt, except the incoming attacker is doing 80-90kts and you'll only see them a few seconds from impact- nevermind that everything else is still aiming at you in the meantime, and you just gave them all a perfect shot.

DCP is no help, because its active time is far too short compared to its recharge. The sub will have another ping on the way the moment it expires, and you're right back where you started. Use it to evade one set of torps, and seconds later you're going to be on fire with your engine knocked out.

And yes, the constant re-pinging is beyond annoying even when it isn't accomplishing anything. It's like the bot equivalent of spamming voice commands in chat.

--------

The way I see it, there are two ways to solve this that WG could implement very easily:

One, make use of the ping mechanic light up the sub, the same way firing guns lights up a surface ship. This makes perfect sense to me- it is literally broadcasting its location. This would probably mess with PvP balance, though.

Two, force bot subs to only use standard torps. No homing torps, no annoyance dealing with homing torps. Dead simple solution, only affects co-op.

--------

The ideal solution (short of removing subs, which I think we all know will never happen at this point) would be to either re-work or remove homing torps. Real first-generation homing torpedoes didn't work the way these do; they homed in on the noise made by the target ship's propellers. That would make for more intuitive evasion mechanics- you could degrade or disable the torps' homing ability by throttle juking, which is already a skill in everyone's toolkit (and, more importantly, wouldn't require the evading player to expose themselves to every other damage source just to evade the sub's attacks). Another option would be to give subs access to the new mechanic being developed for the upcoming British battlecruiser line- which is also in line with the way torpedoes during the period covered by WoWs worked. That would allow subs to retain the ability to fire off-bore shots while eliminating the annoyance factor of homing weapons.

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I think the ideal solution would be to give them accurate speed and torps and let them start about 5km from the centerline.

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i dunno... i averaged over 25k dmg per game and 1+ kills in coop with u69 over 10 coop matches and yes I did finish top 3rd occasionally.

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8 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

That one,low value sub, could be a BB.........  Sub value and BB value aren't the same.  It's why having 6 light combatants isn't any fun either:  it's not the same as have 4 additional CA's or BB's out there for "value...."

Remember, players using COOP might never play Randoms.......  So, every "point of value" is more important to that part of our market segment (PVE) than a new player in PVP....

Less farming value for PVP players "playing down" for Farm Event damage as well.....  Which, increases the manic rush forward to kill as fast as you can attitudes we sometimes face, which, decreases a PVE mains desires to play in PT....

I am playing less and less now.  And, back to F2P; so,............game quality is more important than "for sale gimmicks" because I am NOT spending any money anymore .   

The values are the same between ships.  For your scores what matters is how much damage you did to a ship relative to their HP pool.  5k damage done to a low HP ship like a Destroyer weighs far more than 5k damage done to a HP sponge like a Battleship.

3 hours ago, Cirran said:

Your agenda/personal opinion on BBs and Co Op is showing.

 

Cirran

I never claim to hide them.

Battleships are the stupidest easy ships to play in this game.

Here's ship preferences for Co-Op.

DDj7qk8.jpeg

8 hours ago, SKurj said:

with how much subs keep changing I imagine coding the AI to play them is lagging behind, and once a final implementation is chosen, the AI tuning will occur...

 

i could be wrong though...

That's the thing.  You can't get comfortable with them because WG keeps on changing stuff about them.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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So you BB players complaining about Cruisers rushing in ahead of you should be happy about Submarines scaring Cruiser players to be more timid.  A BB can just waltz right in no problems.  They're big girls.  They can take it.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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2 hours ago, Wrath_Of_Deadguy said:

The way I see it, there are two ways to solve this that WG could implement very easily:

One, make use of the ping mechanic light up the sub, the same way firing guns lights up a surface ship. This makes perfect sense to me- it is literally broadcasting its location. This would probably mess with PvP balance, though.

Two, force bot subs to only use standard torps. No homing torps, no annoyance dealing with homing torps. Dead simple solution, only affects co-op.

 

2 hours ago, Swervenkill said:

I think the ideal solution would be to give them accurate speed and torps and let them start about 5km from the centerline.

All of the above plus:

Limited reloads: should do this to all ships *including aircraft* and Magazine ammo so that the bigger heavier ships actually get something for their mobility trade-off (more ammo).

Extreme fragility.  If one gets hit... it's done.

Extremely small detectability 2-3 km... not for "realism" but to make them effective spotters and cap contenders against more powerful.... well... everything.  The spotting mechanic is a necessary suspension of disbelief due to the game format... and the fact that nobody will play this if we have to maneuver for hours or days before we take a single shot :)

No "ping" mechanic at all.

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