Ancient Chinese junk treasure ships

[whitedragonking]

what a post i make that about ships? lol yea had this on the back burner for some time. i seen these ships in some games like age of empire 3 and a TV show called Hetalia. Massive ships that explored vast distances. wanted to know more on these ships.

here are some videos on them.

 

 

[Snakehead1234]

I always thought Chinese junks were small.

[whitedragonking]

Snakehead1234, on 12 March 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:

I always thought Chinese junks were small.

Modern ones yes, ancient ones the size of a small town no lol

[Shevla13]

Junks ranged in size from river boats to massive behemoths.

[whitedragonking]

Shevla13, on 12 March 2013 - 08:37 PM, said:

Junks ranged in size from river boats to massive behemoths.

cool

[Azumazi]

Cao Cao in 208 CE moved roughly 800000 troops, with roughly 600000 on 900 large Junks. He put 6 squadrons (600 men) with 60 sailors on each Junk. Now imagine how big those ships were. The rest of his men were his Northern Cavalry and Zhang Yan's guard who were 80000 strong infantry and roughly 50000 cavalry.

 

The numbers are a bit off, since Cao Cao left troops behind in the rear to guard the supply trains at various key points to protect them, but the fact he managed to that many men with that many ships is a feat in itself.

[Lostwingman]

Azumazi, on 12 March 2013 - 10:48 PM, said:

Cao Cao in 208 CE moved roughly 800000 troops, with roughly 600000 on 900 large Junks. He put 6 squadrons (600 men) with 60 sailors on each Junk. Now imagine how big those ships were. The rest of his men were his Northern Cavalry and Zhang Yan's guard who were 80000 strong infantry and roughly 50000 cavalry.

The numbers are a bit off, since Cao Cao left troops behind in the rear to guard the supply trains at various key points to protect them, but the fact he managed to that many men with that many ships is a feat in itself.

How legit are those numbers?
There's a lot of wartime "estimations" that throw big numbers around from that era.

[Azumazi]

Those numbers are from Sima Yi's records that were put into official record of annul's in China. For the record, Sima Yi usurped the throne from Cao Pi (Cao Cao's son), to be fair though Wu stated that 200000 of those solders were taken in from Yuan Shao's armies including the 50000 or so that Yuan Shao took from Songong Zan and forced into service and another 40000 or so were from Liu Biao's own armies when he conquered them previous to going after Liu Bei fleeing towards Chai Sang. It's also why Zhou Yu estimated that only about 225000 of those soldiers were Cao Cao's core army, which wasn't far off. Sima Yi also gave credit where it was due, to Zhuge Liang and Zhou Yu for their tactics in the battle of chibi. Something a lot of western civilizations didn't do. Luo Guanzhong was able to get the information from Sima Yi's records which were still available for those of the Imperial Court (Yes the scrolls he wrote still existed to that day) So overall

 

225000 Military Core of Cao Cao's army, mostly veterans in the war against Lu Bu and Yuan Shao

100000 Troops from Zhang Yan bandit's who submitted to Cao Cao.

250000 troops from Yuan Shao's armies after defeating and burning down their estate killing Yuan Shao and his family, the troops surrendered without a commander and Cao Cao levied them into service.

200000 Troops levied with permission (by force) by Cao Cao to boost his numbers before marching south, and most of these were light infantry with little but basic training.

40000 troops from Liu Biao's forces.

 

Sun Quan had roughly 35000 troops including 3000 or so sailors at his command and Liu Bei only had about 20000 troops on hand after fleeing from Cao Cao; however, most of both forces troops were veterans. Liu Bei's mostly fought along side Cao Cao against Lu Bu and Yuan Shu, so they weren't inexperienced at all, and Sun Ce, the father of Sun Quan bolstered their armies when they took the south lands and those troops were battle hardened from his many campaigns.

 

Cao Cao lost the battle due to his primary commanders inexperience to fighting on a naval front. Something the south landers were not, especially Sun Quan's army who had been fighting Pirates for over 20 years, and some of their own army were of those same Pirates that switched sides. Now, one thing that Sima Yi never stated was where Cao Cao levied those troops from, so that is one reason why historians question that number, which is why a lot of sources state about 550000 troops on Cao Cao's side with 50000 give or take on Sun Quan/Liu Bei's side.