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TxChrisZ06

Cruisers, why are they made of 99% CIT

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Just a question to the DEVs, why is every single heavy cruiser made of 99.9% CIT? Tier 7-10 are all almost 2 shot kills from just about any boat. DDs are more tanky than these things and its annoying to spend hard earned credits on a boat that gets CIT'd from any angle from any boat at just about any range.

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DDs have been more tanky than cruisers since at least when BB caliber AP was turned into forced overpens on them.

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14 minutes ago, TxChrisZ06 said:

Just a question to the DEVs, why is every single heavy cruiser made of 99.9% CIT? Tier 7-10 are all almost 2 shot kills from just about any boat. DDs are more tanky than these things and its annoying to spend hard earned credits on a boat that gets CIT'd from any angle from any boat at just about any range.

I actually agree with this.  With the increasing size of guns on bb's the overmatch is becoming more and more relevant when facing cruisers.   Its quite common now to be facing DD's with 25k+ hp.  With no citadels and big agility they are definitely a better option than cruisers for survivability.  Any cruiser that has to expose itself to shoot is basically at bottom of pecking order in terms of power.

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2 hours ago, Helstrem said:

DDs have been more tanky than cruisers since at least when BB caliber AP was turned into forced overpens on them.

That is a big part of the growing problem. More and more ships introduced with massive overmatch shells making cruiser armor useless.

 

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Play USN CLs (Worcester line) to have 10% cit

Play USN super cruisers (Congress/Alaska/PR) to have 5% cit

Play German DDs (Elbing line) to have 0% cit

Alternatively, you can get better mechanically and learn to dodge with PT.

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5 hours ago, TxChrisZ06 said:

Just a question to the DEVs, why is every single heavy cruiser made of 99.9% CIT? Tier 7-10 are all almost 2 shot kills from just about any boat. DDs are more tanky than these things and its annoying to spend hard earned credits on a boat that gets CIT'd from any angle from any boat at just about any range.

kek T7-10 are extra tanky... did you bypass T5-6? ... Omaha, Konigsberg et al are laughing at you. 

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5 hours ago, TxChrisZ06 said:

Just a question to the DEVs, why is every single heavy cruiser made of 99.9% CIT? Tier 7-10 are all almost 2 shot kills from just about any boat. DDs are more tanky than these things and its annoying to spend hard earned credits on a boat that gets CIT'd from any angle from any boat at just about any range.

Cruisers were not built to have armor like battleships, they were built for commerce raiding and to protect battleships from destroyers and other cruisers. Destroyers in turn were built to protect capital ships and convoys from torpedo boats, both the small fast surface type and submarines.

In fact the whole idea of battle cruisers was to build large faster and lighter ships with battleship type guns but without the armor to protect them from that same size gun. The reason the Bismarck was able to sink the Hood so easily was that the Hood was a battle cruiser, not a battle ship.

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I looked you up OP, just to get a picture on what you're doing, trying to guess at what experiences you've had.  At 675 total Random Battles, 62% of that were with Destroyers, 20% with Cruisers, 17% with Battleships, remainder with CVs.

 

Destroyers demand aggressive play, a style that's not conducive to Cruisers.  You were doing okay with Cruisers at low tiers but once you hit Tier V with more human players, and the Match Maker protection for low tiers goes away, you started having big problems.  Highest tier you have in Cruisers is VII NOLA.

VII NOLA 4 games.

VI Rahmat 5 games.

VI Dallas 40.

VI Pensacola 13 games.

V Omaha 38 games.

 

It's my belief you're having the same problem I had when I was new and was a Cruiser Main:  Being too aggressive.  You're also trying to move up very quickly in your Cruiser tiers.  I understand you want the next thing, but you don't have much time in Cruisers and it only gets harsher as you go higher.

In low tiers you can get away with it because the BBs there can't hit ****.  On top of that their gun range as a whole is pathetic.  So everything about low tiers invites close range play.  Once you get to Tier V, that's not how it is.  Effective engagement ranges push out further for Battleships.  It only gets better and better for them.  As you climb the tiers, the ability for players to punish a mistake only increases.

 

For your Cruiser play I suggest 2 things:

1.   Play conservatively first until you feel more comfortable with the new tiers in your Cruiser.  If you're alive you can do damage and contribute to the team.  If you get reckless early on, you're dead, and you get nothing.

2.  Play like your ship is armored with egg shells.  Because with all the Battleships out there, that's what your protection really amounts to.  Being at range, using Stealth to control engagements, knowing when to fire and hold off, being paranoid about your Citadel and not show too much broadside, and use WASD keys.  You can use map features like islands to limit enemy LOS to you.  I'm not saying you need to park your Cruiser behind or right next to an island.  What I mean is you can be sailing out open water, but a big islands to your side 8km away can be used to block the LOS of many enemy ships against you, while you are able to engage elements of the enemy team.

 

A Cruiser player must rely more on active defense, not passive (armor) to preserve his ship.  If you want a far stronger passive defense, play a Battleship.

 

Before moving into Tier VIII or higher, I suggest getting used to playing your Cruisers in mid tiers (V-VII) until you feel more comfortable, become more effective.  You need to learn this right here and now because High Tier (VIII+) is extremely unforgiving.  People get deleted at crazy ranges in Tier X.  At high tier, any bad habits one has will be punished harshly.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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3 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

That is a big part of the growing problem. More and more ships introduced with massive overmatch shells making cruiser armor useless.

 

Very much this also, particularly in Tier X.

 

Years ago, a Cruiser with 30mm upper belt was pretty tanky.  With proper WASD Hax and using Angling tactics, those Cruisers could angle 429mm and smaller gun equipped Battleships.  Long ago the only Tier X BBs that could Overmatch 30mm plating were Yamato & Musashi (460mm) and Republique (430mm).  But WG has added tons and tons more of 430mm+ armed Battleships since then.

X Thunderer 457mm

X Ohio 457mm

X Kremlin 457mm

IX Georgia 457mm

X Shikashima 510mm

X Preussen 457mm

XI Hannover 483mm

XI Satsuma 510mm

 

Long ago, say 2015-2016, in Tier V-VI, the typical BB gun size was 356mm.  Now there's scores more of 380mm+ armed Battleships.

Tier VII?  406mm / 410mm becomes the standard.  But there are 356mm or so armed Battleships that tier that may not have the massive guns as Nagato, Sinop, Colorado, Nelson, but they are very dangerous to Cruisers:  Lyon, KGV, Duke of York, the rare Poltava, Scharnhorst, etc.

 

To make matters worse, WG has been bringing in lots of Battleships with improved accuracy:  X Thunderer, IX Georgia, VI Repulse, VI Russkified Caesar, and of course, the very recent German Battlecruiser Line.  As bad as the large amount of Big Overmatch BB guns WG has been introducing, it's the amount of improved accuracy Battleships / Battlecruisers that spell big trouble for Cruisers.

 

What I'm getting at is today, more than ever, any heavy reliance by Cruiser players on passive defenses, i.e. their armor and citadel protection, is a bad idea.  You had best not get hit by being an inconvenient and / or hard to hit target.  Every Battleship player worth their salt is looking for the easiest target to delete with their AP shells.  Cruisers are already preferred targets for them.  So if a Cruiser player puts themselves on a silver platter, they're going to get their **** pushed in.

 

Last edit:  This also ties into why Super Cruisers have become pretty popular compared to Normal Cruisers.  A number of these will survive better in a Battleship heavy environment.  Particularly the extremely tanky Alaska.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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13 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

What I'm getting at is today, more than ever, any heavy reliance by Cruiser players on passive defenses, i.e. their armor and citadel protection, is a bad idea.  You had best not get hit by being an inconvenient and / or hard to hit target

Projecting this trend to it inevitable conclusion. The only cruisers worth playing will be those that can hide really well (smoke,  sometimes islands are not available) and/or are flimsy enough that BB shells almost always overpen. The cruiser-ish DDs will be much more survivable.

All of which should make DDs much more popular as their major preditors go extinct and their preferred prey (BBs) get more common.

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Power creep of the big guns... IMO, they're doing it on purpose...Especially, at high tiers... Its been that way for years... Well, since before  0.8.0...

Edited by Navalpride33

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3 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

That is a big part of the growing problem. More and more ships introduced with massive overmatch shells making cruiser armor useless.

 

That is a problem, but it is completely orthogonal to what I was saying.

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4 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

That is a problem, but it is completely orthogonal to what I was saying.

Seems to me they are connected. The bigger BB guns make cruiser citadels much more accessible because angling does not matter. Armor does not matter. Effective making the citadel bigger as it can be hit from any angle. Which I thought was your point.

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Regarding the point that there's more 30mm overmatch than ever, I'd like to argue that while there may be more BB's with that ability in the game than there was at launch, the proportion hasn't changed. At launch, 50% of the Tier X BB's in the game could overmatch cruiser 30mm armor, and that proportion remains roughly the same, you're not really any more likely to encounter overmatching guns now than you were before. Those guns just come in more flavors.

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37 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Seems to me they are connected. The bigger BB guns make cruiser citadels much more accessible because angling does not matter. Armor does not matter. Effective making the citadel bigger as it can be hit from any angle. Which I thought was your point.

No, as I was referring to the change that stopped BBs from getting full pens on DDs.  DDs haven't been able to be citadeled since Alpha.

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I looked you up OP, just to get a picture on what you're doing, trying to guess at what experiences you've had.  At 675 total Random Battles, 62% of that were with Destroyers, 20% with Cruisers, 17% with Battleships, remainder with CVs.

 

Destroyers demand aggressive play, a style that's not conducive to Cruisers.  You were doing okay with Cruisers at low tiers but once you hit Tier V with more human players, and the Match Maker protection for low tiers goes away, you started having big problems.  Highest tier you have in Cruisers is VII NOLA.

VII NOLA 4 games.

VI Rahmat 5 games.

VI Dallas 40.

VI Pensacola 13 games.

V Omaha 38 games.

 

It's my belief you're having the same problem I had when I was new and was a Cruiser Main:  Being too aggressive.  You're also trying to move up very quickly in your Cruiser tiers.  I understand you want the next thing, but you don't have much time in Cruisers and it only gets harsher as you go higher.

In low tiers you can get away with it because the BBs there can't hit ****.  On top of that their gun range as a whole is pathetic.  So everything about low tiers invites close range play.  Once you get to Tier V, that's not how it is.  Effective engagement ranges push out further for Battleships.  It only gets better and better for them.  As you climb the tiers, the ability for players to punish a mistake only increases.

 

For your Cruiser play I suggest 2 things:

1.   Play conservatively first until you feel more comfortable with the new tiers in your Cruiser.  If you're alive you can do damage and contribute to the team.  If you get reckless early on, you're dead, and you get nothing.

2.  Play like your ship is armored with egg shells.  Because with all the Battleships out there, that's what your protection really amounts to.  Being at range, using Stealth to control engagements, knowing when to fire and hold off, being paranoid about your Citadel and not show too much broadside, and use WASD keys.  You can use map features like islands to limit enemy LOS to you.  I'm not saying you need to park your Cruiser behind or right next to an island.  What I mean is you can be sailing out open water, but a big islands to your side 8km away can be used to block the LOS of many enemy ships against you, while you are able to engage elements of the enemy team.

 

A Cruiser player must rely more on active defense, not passive (armor) to preserve his ship.  If you want a far stronger passive defense, play a Battleship.

 

Before moving into Tier VIII or higher, I suggest getting used to playing your Cruisers in mid tiers (V-VII) until you feel more comfortable, become more effective.  You need to learn this right here and now because High Tier (VIII+) is extremely unforgiving.  People get deleted at crazy ranges in Tier X.  At high tier, any bad habits one has will be punished harshly.

Thanks for the pointers, 

 I will admit my play style is extremely aggressive since DD's are my go to. I like to get in there and support the front line as much as possible like with my DD play (spot, smoke, torp, repeat). Im usually right along side the BBs and cruisers as they get beyond the forward most phaseline to provide as much fire as possible. 

 When it comes to my cruisers I usually try to hang back to within 2/3rds of my weapons max range, but its gotten to the point that a BB can smack me at a 45 degree angle with a 23km+ shot from across the map and still CIT my boat. I usually dont [edited] about a games dynamics and just suck it up and drive on, but this has become ridiculous. Especially after grinding for match after match to buy a boat that turns out to be a complete turd. 

 I will modify my play style or just sell my cruisers all together if I dont see myself or the cit situation improve. 

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27 minutes ago, TxChrisZ06 said:

Thanks for the pointers, 

 I will admit my play style is extremely aggressive since DD's are my go to. I like to get in there and support the front line as much as possible like with my DD play (spot, smoke, torp, repeat). Im usually right along side the BBs and cruisers as they get beyond the forward most phaseline to provide as much fire as possible. 

 When it comes to my cruisers I usually try to hang back to within 2/3rds of my weapons max range, but its gotten to the point that a BB can smack me at a 45 degree angle with a 23km+ shot from across the map and still CIT my boat. I usually dont [edited] about a games dynamics and just suck it up and drive on, but this has become ridiculous. Especially after grinding for match after match to buy a boat that turns out to be a complete turd. 

 I will modify my play style or just sell my cruisers all together if I dont see myself or the cit situation improve. 

That's the "Cruiser Lyfe":  You have to be paranoid at all times about your ship.  I'm a Cruiser Main but Battleships are my next most played for PVP.  With Tier VI Fuso and her 356mm guns, I'll scan the area for targets:

1.  I want to help my DDs against enemy DDs, but ATM all the enemy DDs are either smoked up or not detected.

2.  There are Battleships within 15km of me, but none of them are stupid showing a broadside.  They're coated in heavy armor, so my shells will not be as effective.

3.  The local enemy Cruisers in our part of the area are standing off, or sailing in a way that makes the prospect of hitting them unlikely.

4.  However, I notice 18km away on the other side of a map, an enemy Cruiser player trying to kite away from my teammates down south.  To my teammates in the southeast corner of the map, he's angled away and showing a narrow profile, hard to hit.  But from my POV from the northeast corner of the map, I see a distant Cruiser but he's showing a flatbroadside to me.  Even better, he's likely not anticipating me taking that shot.  Mid tier maps are also not that big, so...

 

DELETED CRUISER.

 

Even better, once you get into High Tier, there are more and more Battleships that can reliably take that shot.

 

Priority Target captain skill at tier 2 is also valuable as it lets you know when you're being targeted and by how many.  It can clue you in when a course of action you're doing is a terrible idea.

 

Again, I highly suggest you be more cautious, be worrying about ALL the angles that people can possibly target you from, stay mobile, don't sail straight for too long.  You sail straight too long you become a predictable target that is easier to lead.  Play more cautiously until you feel more comfortable, then be more aggressive after.  A Battleship player can afford to take some shots, but Cruisers cannot.  A Battleship can recover HP as all of them have Repair Party.  Almost all Cruisers lack Repair Party.

 

You as a Cruiser have consistent guns but your staying power is questionable.  Stay alive so you can make your guns do their job.  Your 152mm, 203mm guns need time to do work over a match.

survive.gif

Understand that as a Cruiser, you are the very first thing every Battleship player would preferably take their shot against.  You need to play accordingly.

-----

When I was newer, when Tier V Omaha was my highest tier ship, I went and bought both Premium Ships VIII Atago & VII Atlanta.  I played them stupidly.  I remember using my Atlanta trying to dance 10, 11km in front of some Battleship who promptly deleted me.

BB player: "Get a load of this guy!"

BOOM!

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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3 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Projecting this trend to it inevitable conclusion. The only cruisers worth playing will be those that can hide really well (smoke,  sometimes islands are not available) and/or are flimsy enough that BB shells almost always overpen. The cruiser-ish DDs will be much more survivable.

All of which should make DDs much more popular as their major preditors go extinct and their preferred prey (BBs) get more common.

When the IJN DD split happened adding Shiratsuyu, Kitakaze, Harugumo, etc, I joked that Harugumo was a better Light Cruiser than most actual Light Cruisers in the game.  Hell, the IJN 100mm gun got buffed by WG to stupid non-sensical levels:  They have equivalent HE Penetration to typical 152mm guns.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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9 hours ago, Capt_Ahab1776 said:

USN and RN CL’s reeeeee lol

Had a game, earlier today, in which I essentially "printed a new Drake" after taking a torpedo salvo from a Pommern.
I was pleasantly surprised to have survived the close encounter.  :-)

I think this is the correct replay.  20220421_110141_PBSC209-Drake_40_Okinawa.wowsreplay
 

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I'm new here, and up to Seattle. In Cleveland and Seattle I'm fairly aggressive around the caps early battle, radar gimmick to spot DDs etc, quite often I'm spotted early, I've never been deleted when spotted.

Conclusion - play USN CLs and keep the pointy bit pointed at the biggest guns around.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Hell, the IJN 100mm gun got buffed by WG to stupid non-sensical levels:

In Seapower (old tabletop wargame with miniatures. see Avatar) you raised the pen on a gun by 1" for each 5 calibers above 45. So, in that  game, the 100mm/65's had the equivalent penetration of an 8"/45. Made the Akizuki into a real monster.  Don't think my older brother (my normal opponent) ever figured that out. Of course that game tracked ammo use so with 5 minute turns, you would burn thru all your ammo in 4 turns if you fired at max rate. That game gave the guns a 3 second reload (100 rounds per move).

Edited by Sabot_100

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A lot of the problem can be mitigated with positioning and situational awareness.

But not all of it.

Despite the earlier comment, the proliferation of 30mm overmatch is very, very real - especially now with supership-influenced matchmaking, where your T9 cruiser is likely to see more BBs with it than without.

The days of "battleship Hindenburg" are long gone. Unless you're a Napoli or Petro, just don't get hit, period. Angle all you want, if a Kremlin or Ohio or Yamato or Thunderer or Incomp or Repub or Preussen or Vermont or Shiki, etc etc, hit you...you're taking 10k minimum.

It's why I've gravitated towards stealthy cruisers of late. Take your shots when their guns are pointed the other way, then go dark. Only way to survive.

Edited by JamesTomb

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@JamesTomb There's also a big issue with Cruiser play, WASD HAX, etc, is that despite the huge number of BBs being played by often bad players, hidden every now and then among them are great ones.  The guys that play their Yamato and have no problem blasting a maneuvering Cruiser at range.  The guys that you think you're safe from their Battleship because of an island, but know their tricks to lob the shells just enough over an island to nail you.  The guys that you think you're safe because of your Creeping Smoke, only to find out that won't stop them in making good salvos and still hitting you.

 

Back when Submarine Battles hit PTS the first time, I remember playing my Perth and was harassing these 2 BBs.  One was a New Mexico.  They were trying to go elsewhere and I was peppering them both with my HE shells, being a PITA.  One BB tried to fire back at my smoke but he was way off.  However, the New Mexico player did not have that problem.  He had plenty of practice before or something, but he quickly knew how to hit me in my own creeping smoke to the point I had to stop firing and start sailing more defensively while the smoke was still up.  He'd already Citadeled and Pen'ed me several times.  If I kept up firing, he would have sank me despite the smoke generator still active.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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23 hours ago, megahugenoob said:

I actually agree with this.  With the increasing size of guns on bb's the overmatch is becoming more and more relevant when facing cruisers.   Its quite common now to be facing DD's with 25k+ hp.  With no citadels and big agility they are definitely a better option than cruisers for survivability.  Any cruiser that has to expose itself to shoot is basically at bottom of pecking order in terms of power.

Ive experience the new italian destroyers chunking my stalingrad for 5k every salvo. Not quite the same but that will quickly kill a japanes cruiser.

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