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crazyrom

Subs suddenly got too tanky!

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So, with more game and sub encounters, started noticing the damage done to subs. Every plane barrel is just 400 damage. And planes drop too few of them, only 1-2 hit the subs. So subs can simply ignore those planes, they take almost no damage.

Then, I hit a sub with full HE salvo from a cruiser, like 8 shells, and the damage was around 2400, so again, 400 damage per shell.

This is very wrong. Subs have no armor whatsoever, and any hole in them allows water to enter, they should not even be able to submerge anymore, but no, after taking 20 cruiser shells they are diving and laughing. This is very wrong.

Subs are supposed to be stealthy, and any exposure should cost them. Instead, they just sail on the surface ignoring the shells, and barely suffer any damage.

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I haven't played this game in almost 3 months but yes, they can't balance subs, and never will, they don't belong in the game, everytime they try and balance them, they unbalance all other ships and it keeps going and going back and fourth.

Edited by Itsj_p
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1 hour ago, crazyrom said:

So, with more game and sub encounters, started noticing the damage done to subs. Every plane barrel is just 400 damage. And planes drop too few of them, only 1-2 hit the subs. So subs can simply ignore those planes, they take almost no damage.

Then, I hit a sub with full HE salvo from a cruiser, like 8 shells, and the damage was around 2400, so again, 400 damage per shell.

This is very wrong. Subs have no armor whatsoever, and any hole in them allows water to enter, they should not even be able to submerge anymore, but no, after taking 20 cruiser shells they are diving and laughing. This is very wrong.

Subs are supposed to be stealthy, and any exposure should cost them. Instead, they just sail on the surface ignoring the shells, and barely suffer any damage.

yup i agree with ya, had a sub chasing me in in a BB.. a very slow and low agility BB.. took me 11 uses of depth charges to kill em.

It was fun, but the Battle time wasted was far to much for a 1v1. (took like 4 - 5mins)

Subs should be glass cannons in my book.

edit - tho they weren't surfaced within my dect range, so maybe a bit different.

 

 

Edited by Retarie

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It took me over 12 depth charge hits and the sub got away. wth. Please fix this problem WG. If I put 12 toros on a ship it would be annihilated. 

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Airstrikes were too strong when multiple ships were involved, so they got a nerf. Now single ships struggle to deal with a sub alone. There is no middle ground because the mechanics of the airstrike make them impossible to balance in all scenarios. We'll see if they cook up yet more mechanics to deal with this, or if subs finally get foisted on the playerbase "working as intended" just like the 0.8 patch.

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1 hour ago, SuperSSL said:

Airstrikes were too strong when multiple ships were involved, so they got a nerf. Now single ships struggle to deal with a sub alone. There is no middle ground because the mechanics of the airstrike make them impossible to balance in all scenarios. We'll see if they cook up yet more mechanics to deal with this, or if subs finally get foisted on the playerbase "working as intended" just like the 0.8 patch.

When a DD overextends and is focused for example in a cap by multiple ships it too gets annihilated. 

Tonight i shot at a sub in coop with a Des Moines, it was rediculous how many shots it took to kill with 9 rapid firing HE shells. Their saturation is even better then a French DD.

I don’t understand the decisions in how they are balancing subs.

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7 hours ago, Itsj_p said:

I haven't played this game in almost 3 months but yes, they can't balance subs, and never will, they don't belong in the game, everytime they try and balance them, they unbalance all other ships and it keeps going and going back and fourth.

They could balance them. But instead they have the audacity or sense of humor to buff them.

Every game balance decision since Superships seems like a troll to the players. One can wonder if we are being laughed at for playing with and against Superships and submarines.

Edited by Xiao_Meimei

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Meh, to be fair Pig Boats have always been way too tanky. 

Thing is so are DDs BUT both classes have folks that want to play them so I say they should be in the game just for that fact alone.

Assuming positive intent, I wish WG much luck in making them fun to play against.

 

Cirran

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subs start to feel like a meme of the dr strange vs dormamu scene

 

WG introduce subs: comunity i come to bargain about subs

comunity: no

WG makes new patch: comunity i come to bargain about subs

comunity: just no

WG makes new patch: comunity i come to bargain about subs

comunity: get out, told you we dont want it!

couple years later

WG makes new patch: comunity i come to bargain about subs

comunity:

VYzREDN.gif

 

Edited by pepe_trueno
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In a 1v1 expect to have a frustrating time against a competent sub. Happened to me a couple times already, you need teammate's hydro to light them or good guesswork from following the visible ping.

However, they are only a terror when played well. Their torps aren't a big deal vs. BBs but can cruisers and DDs get visibly nervous when one's around.

Pretty much playing high tiers, so rarely see them, and even then they're rarely a major concern--somewhat like when RTS CVs used to be rare.

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They’re not fun to play against and make the game worse.  Everyone says they should be a glass cannon because of the fact that they can dive, yet WG keeps thinking they can re-imagine the idea of a submarine into something that fits with their game. Like a DD in this way, like a CV in that way, like a BB for tankiness… etc etc   

The game has an identity crisis.  WG caused it.
 

/shrug

Edited by Dudefella
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Multiple Penns from Halland HE.. ( others were shooting it too ) 6 Depth charge hits and the sub RAM KILLED ME and LIVED!!!

He went on to kill 2 more ships.

Yeah , I think we have a problem.:Smile_sceptic:

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10 hours ago, Retarie said:

yup i agree with ya, had a sub chasing me in in a BB.. a very slow and low agility BB.. took me 11 uses of depth charges to kill em.

It was fun, but the Battle time wasted was far to much for a 1v1. (took like 4 - 5mins)

Subs should be glass cannons in my book.

edit - tho they weren't surfaced within my dect range, so maybe a bit different.

 

 

If they are to be glass cannons... then subs should not need to chase a BB for 5 mins to kill it.  

Edited by Jitta77

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49 minutes ago, Jitta77 said:

If they are to be glass cannons... then subs should not need to chase a BB for 5 mins to kill it.  

Battleships are right now strangely the most effective class against subs, barring maybe other subs.

They have the highest homing torpedo cutoff distance. Dodging homing torpedoes stupidly is harder in cruisers than in BBs. They have the most effective countermeasure (plane dropped DC) vs. CL and DDs needing to be right on top of something that moves and turns underwater just as fast as them.

The current iteration of subs has, ironically made them pathetically bad at killing competently driven BBs, the BB player just plays the same as against a torp DD; yet they are also incredibly hard to kill with anything but the concentrated effort of a good chunk of a team.

If it weren't for the fact that they've opened testing of them for everyone (including people who haven't made it past tier 6 or entirely new people at the game) I think the statistics would be skewed very far in favor of sub survivability. I've run into subs with 100% dive capacity sitting on the surface for some reason in the middle of my team, yet they often survive to run off after the entire flank opens up on them. Any destroyer making similar mistakes would've been crushed.

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4 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Multiple Penns from Halland HE.. ( others were shooting it too ) 6 Depth charge hits and the sub RAM KILLED ME and LIVED!!!

He went on to kill 2 more ships.

Yeah , I think we have a problem.:Smile_sceptic:

@Ahskance, this is just very wrong.... Subs need to be killable...

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7 minutes ago, crazyrom said:

@Ahskance, this is just very wrong.... Subs need to be killable...

You are going to be told that DDs have too much to do and WG decided that BBs should be the primary anti Pig Boat platform in the game.

It is what it is.

 

Cirran

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4 hours ago, Col_Nasty said:

Multiple Penns from Halland HE.. ( others were shooting it too ) 6 Depth charge hits and the sub RAM KILLED ME and LIVED!!!

He went on to kill 2 more ships.

Yeah , I think we have a problem.:Smile_sceptic:

 

15 minutes ago, crazyrom said:

@Ahskance, this is just very wrong.... Subs need to be killable...

Subs are very killable.

 

I am curious though about how close the Depth charges were to the sub.

After all, an AP shell or HE shell can hit a ship, yet cause no damage. Alternately, a shell can miss a ship, yet disable the engines or rudder.

If the depth charge is right on, or next to the sub, then yes it should take alot of damage. But if the depth charge is further away from the sub, should the same damage amount apply? It's like that HE shell that missed the ship. Its not a hit, yet it took out the rudder.

 

As for the ram, we don't see what flags a sub might be flying. It could have been flying the ram flag. In addition, rams tend to be a bit odd at times. I've seen both ships taken out in a ram, the rammed ship ship being the only one sunk, to the rammer being the only ship sunk.

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16 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

After all, an AP shell or HE shell can hit a ship, yet cause no damage. Alternately, a shell can miss a ship, yet disable the engines or rudder.

I was playing Charles Martel (maybe Algérie), both have same HE for 2800 damage.
I hit 8 of them, NORMAL HITS/pens, not splashes or anything, sub was emerged. 
Total damage was ~2400 around 400 per shell. This is just wrong.
 

Edited by crazyrom

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47 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

As for the ram, we don't see what flags a sub might be flying. It could have been flying the ram flag. In addition, rams tend to be a bit odd at times. I've seen both ships taken out in a ram, the rammed ship ship being the only one sunk, to the rammer being the only ship sunk. 

I think the point here is ANYTHING that PENNS ANYTHING that then SUBMERGES is just too far fetched for ANY fantasy game.

I won't even get started on the physics of a tiny SUB Ramming a Ship and killing it only to once again SUBMERGE and go right on killing.

The builders saw too many Capt Nemo movies.

That is why people hate subs.. and no they are NOT easy to kill at all. Especially in a Cap in a DD that instantly gets focused to death while the sub stays safe.  Capping is Broken now and I refuse to cap when there are subs around. there is zero counterplay even smoked..

Edited by Col_Nasty
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8 hours ago, Jitta77 said:

If they are to be glass cannons... then subs should not need to chase a BB for 5 mins to kill it.  

A Glass cannon should have High Damage and low Survivability.

This game does not guarantee being able to hit the target.

Chasing a BB for 5 mins and not landing any torp hits, has nothing to do with being a glass cannon.

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I have put 10 depth charges into a sub before and it lived.

Also this SUB is more tanky than my DD.

tanky.thumb.png.79c0a54788edf732c624d0fbd275079a.png

Edited by Final8ty

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38 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

I have put 10 depth charges into a sub before and it lived.

Also this SUB is more tanky than my DD.

Pretty much what happens when you buff them to be 'usable' by anyone no matter how awful they are lol.

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1 hour ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Pretty much what happens when you buff them to be 'usable' by anyone no matter how awful they are lol.

I was shocked.

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Depth charges should do a lot more dmg. For how tricky it is to actively keep up with a sub and execute it should be almost an assured kill with 4-5 hits. Also, I think the time it takes to dive should take longer while being spotted or maybe when actively taking damage. Lastly I think their speed underwater needs to be reduced a bit, say to 20 knots or so.

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On 4/21/2022 at 12:41 PM, Qyygle said:

Battleships are right now strangely the most effective class against subs, barring maybe other subs.

They have the highest homing torpedo cutoff distance. Dodging homing torpedoes stupidly is harder in cruisers than in BBs. They have the most effective countermeasure (plane dropped DC) vs. CL and DDs needing to be right on top of something that moves and turns underwater just as fast as them.

The current iteration of subs has, ironically made them pathetically bad at killing competently driven BBs, the BB player just plays the same as against a torp DD; yet they are also incredibly hard to kill with anything but the concentrated effort of a good chunk of a team.

If it weren't for the fact that they've opened testing of them for everyone (including people who haven't made it past tier 6 or entirely new people at the game) I think the statistics would be skewed very far in favor of sub survivability. I've run into subs with 100% dive capacity sitting on the surface for some reason in the middle of my team, yet they often survive to run off after the entire flank opens up on them. Any destroyer making similar mistakes would've been crushed.

Evidence of how badly this class has been shoehorned into the game is how completely immersion is broken by play with and against it.

The best counter to subs is not the ship that was designed to do ASW, but a ship type that did not even possess ASW weapons IRL.  Hell's bells, WG. 

Now they are ridiculously damage resistant. In like to the example here, it took 27 pens (not hits, pens)  from Forrest Sherman's guns for me to dispatch a half HP 2501. 

Edited by Pugilistic

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