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LabradorRetriever

Another doggone discussion on AA vs Planes

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@LittleWhiteMouse

A discussion that I wanted to put up in an earlier AA topic,  but that didn't happen for reasons.  This is a deepdive into a single concept.

Putting this forward as a mash up of some other community ideas presented in past AA discussions.  (Trying to keep to mostly elements that exist in game.)

 

-First, change UI of priority sector to a selection wheel(same as battle chat commands)

 

Spoiler

gogogadget.thumb.jpg.abea5b00fd7224fd2100c7773be4012f.jpg

 

 

-3 selectable actions ; +AA Aura Damage increase ; +Double Flak Bursts ; +Panic Effect(plane reticle stays at the widest for the duration)
 (food for thought,  maybe a gradual reversal of the aiming effect?(if this isn't possible, I have a less elegant, rough idea I can post later. same for 2x flak bursts)  For example if a IJN CV takes their torp run early from range, may have committed modules/etc. toward a particular attack style.  Feels unfair if a CV with a fully complete reticle, loses all of that preparation the instant the target hits a button.  There is counterplay for both sides, the ship trying to defend from planes, needs to make smart, timely decisions on how they want to defend.)   
        -UK Torpedo plane,  how should I approach this?
        -UK Dive Bomber,  how should I approach this?
        -Rus Skip Bomber,  how should I approach this?
        -Ger Dive Bomber,  how should I approach this?
        -? what ship class am I using ?

 

-remove directional component (Priority Sector,  now needs a name change?? no longer descriptive)


-cooldowns retained for switching, likely require tweaks(to allow player flexibility if a 2nd CV attacks after). However you want to avoid "flowchart-like actions"(term in other game genres) where it is simply advantageous for a player to always do a specific sequence repeatedly(will expand on this thinking later on in the 2nd post).  A player needs to make his one choice out of three options, in this single engagement.  Reap the reward, or deal with/learn the consequences.

 

-DFAA,  I don't have anything for DFAA.  Keep it as is?  It can be situationally important, and it covers several different situations with added synergy when used in conjunction with priority sector.

[1] Just play it safe and have added damage boost to your Aura. Your AA Aura(depends on ship) might not stop the attack,  but is definitely going to bite back harder with DFAA.

[2] Or priority sector that doubles the amount of flak bursts,  and DFAA boosts the damage of flak.  It is still a gamble with relying on flak,  but the reward is so much greater.
(you want to make DFAA a desirable skill for those who choose a AA route.  Is double flak bursts or flak damage greatly increased more beneifical in a hypothetical system like this? Looking at DFAA & PSector,  one gives capabilities to some ships,  whereas the other gives it to almost all ships. No one can really say, so testing/working out the math will decide which skill should get what effect.)  

[3] And thirdly, not really a synergy.  DFAA will boost your damage just a little bit, get what you can.   But you are more concerned with taking less damage from the attack.  So priority sector usage is vital here to cause Panic Effect.

 

(any concerns on balance,  would rely on tinkering with the numbers.  aka - actual smart people to work out,  not me.)

 

TO BE CONTINUED...

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PART 2 - re-examining the original idea.  A day later. Made even more edits, another day later.

 

-It seems pretty wild,  but imagine having a teammate and sailing together with these options combined + DFAA.  NO FLY Zone,  activated?

 

-BUT there is a glaring issue I found...  With priority sector and a Panic effect,  it makes it so that every ship has the ability.  And CVs can never narrow their aim sights again.....


        -PANIC COOLDOWN ; I think it has to be long. Maybe give a ship two chances to save their behind each game(let's say 8-10min cooldown, but are already loaded at the start of match and ready to use). With good teamplay(any teamplay), the CD isn't such an issue and can really shaft the CV. 

Targets of the CV, should not take the use of panic, lightly. Is your ship at low HP or high, under duress from other surface ships, or is damage control on cooldown?,  do you think the CV will focus you and send more strikes and how quickly?   Important decisions by the ship under attack from a CV.
     And continuing the counterplay.  Can the CV bait out an activation,  or react quick enough to try to re-engage a new attack.  But then he'll be in AA Aura longer     than usual.  Will he have a full power squadron to continue the attack?

 

        -PANIC DURATION ; I have two thoughts on this.   

One is it needs to vary by ship class.  DDs may lack flak,  but have size, speed, manoeuvrability advantage.  The question is how protected is a DD, who can skillfully manipulate his speed, positional awareness, and manoeuvrability.  But throw in now a CV who cannot narrow his aiming reticle in an attack??   How strong is this combination? I cannot say as I lack the ability and experience with playing DDs in a competitive environment.  But the preliminary thought is the duration for DDs should at maximum remove around 50% of a CVs aim progress(if used in a skillful/timely manner).  Allow higher % for other classes(they have more AA firepower- offset by the fact they are larger targets, can't dodge.  there's some semblance of balance in here) 

You can connect this into the upgrade system as well.  For someone willing to sacrifice upgrade spots, for an increase in duration. If they choose to go the anti-aircraft/support route with their customisation choices. 
(This upgrade idea was based off of something else I was brainstorming and not as well fleshed out.. I think it would be best to keep such upgrades to the 5, 6 slots.  It might not mean much,  but keep this away from T4, T6 CVs to let them continue to learn the game, playstyle and tactics. Even if it is just a handful of new enhanced interactions with planes vs AA, leave the added variables for when they play with higher tier CVs.) 

 

Now the second thought,  is to have it the same duration throughout all ship classes.  And should allow a max of 80% removal.   Let's put the microscope on the final part of the CV planes locking in to attack the player.  The varying levels of skill that affect the interaction for the attacker and defender could sway the outcomes for each.   Back and forth with the CV and defending ship putting their skill on the table and seeing who comes out on top.
>> CV whether due to distance, timing, player ability, or adjusting course due to evading target, may not get the time to fully aim.  And the 80% aim removal, essentially works like 100% and the CV is forced to attack with no aim improvement or maybe have to consider aborting the attack.  Provided that the player under attack by the planes,  uses this ability optimally.  And also having to take into account what planes are attacking him. 


With all that said, the standard duration for all ships would make DDs the most undesirable to attack.  The DD doesn't have to use his panic in the first instance he is targeted.  But now that goes to the head of the CV,  will my target use it, is he skilled at dodging, and I'm basically wasting a run and have to commit a second or third launch to actually focus this DD.
(a wide reticle against a DD,CL,BB, means something different for each.  Maybe not worth it for some.)

 

-Oh and I don't have the numbers or a reasonable justification for this,  but CVs should be excluded from this changed "Priority Sector".  So this goes to the CV veterans. Currently, how vulnerable are you to enemy plane attacks?
(my initial thoughts are CVs should use positioning and smart placement of fighters to counter.)
 
 
The principle that I am using to guide me, is not to have a single priority sector action be a I-WIN button. You shouldn't have one button or action, always be a sure thing against certain attacks. There are a lot of variables around, when you're about to be attacked. Like position, land obstructions, ship status like AA health/hull health, teammates nearby.  Don't have the pendulum swing too far the opposite way either.


Final Word.

So my intention is to push ideas out there for those who have high level understanding of the game's inner workings/interactions.   
Because I lack a lot of it. I haven't been a regular PVP'er in 5 years.  And have just shy of 4600 random battles prior to that time.
Maybe most of my ideas here are garbage,  due to the limited foundation I've built it from.  
That doesn't matter though,  if there is even maybe a small gold nugget someone can pull from this.   And springboard from that to make a tenable solution!  Amazing is what that would be.  

Edited by LabradorRetriever
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1 hour ago, LabradorRetriever said:

-DFAA,  I don't have anything for DFAA.  Keep it as is?  It can be situationally important, and it covers several different situations with added synergy when used in conjunction with priority sector.

[1] Just play it safe and have added damage boost to your Aura. Your AA Aura(depends on ship) might not stop the attack,  but is definitely going to bite back harder with DFAA.

[2] Or priority sector that doubles the amount of flak bursts,  and DFAA boosts the damage of flak.  It is still a gamble with relying on flak,  but the reward is so much greater.
(you want to make DFAA a desirable skill for those who choose a AA route.  Is double flak bursts or flak damage greatly increased more beneifical in a hypothetical system like this? Looking at DFAA & PSector,  one gives capabilities to some ships,  whereas the other gives it to almost all ships. No one can really say, so testing/working out the math will decide which skill should get what effect.)  

[3] And thirdly, not really a synergy.  DFAA will boost your damage just a little bit, get what you can.   But you are more concerned with taking less damage from the attack.  So priority sector usage is vital here to cause Panic Effect.

How about.... DFA let's you take 2 of the 3 for its duration?

 

1 hour ago, LabradorRetriever said:

-PANIC COOLDOWN ; I think it has to be long. Maybe give a ship two chances to save their behind each game(let's say 8-10min cooldown, but are already loaded at the start of match and ready to use). With good teamplay(any teamplay), the CD isn't such an issue and can really shaft the CV. 

Make that the panic  effect drop by half your AA value while also only making the aim overall worst (going from 50% more spread when you have 100% AA to... well... 0% at 0% AA mount). That way, it would be a better tactic for poor AA ships but a trade off for the other.

 

 

I would also change the ''boost aura damage'' to ''boost aura range''. Making it some -30% for +30% range for its duration, making AA a better teamwork element than it is now.

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8 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

How about.... DFA let's you take 2 of the 3 for its duration?

 

Make that the panic  effect drop by half your AA value while also only making the aim overall worst (going from 50% more spread when you have 100% AA to... well... 0% at 0% AA mount). That way, it would be a better tactic for poor AA ships but a trade off for the other.

 

 

I would also change the ''boost aura damage'' to ''boost aura range''. Making it some -30% for +30% range for its duration, making AA a better teamwork element than it is now.

Wow these are all pretty interesting suggestions.  Going pretty deep into hypothetical mechanics. :cap_like:

On your third point,  it is losing 30% of your AA strength in exchange for +30% range correct?

Great post!

 

The point of this discussion is to spur ideas,  and improve on them.  I'm an average player with decent enough knowledge,  there are much smarter, passionate people lurking around this game.

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8 minutes ago, LabradorRetriever said:

On your third point,  it is losing 30% of your AA strength in exchange for +30% range correct?

Yes. So basically: you trade effective AA damage for longer range mainly to support your allies.

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1 hour ago, LabradorRetriever said:

2] Or priority sector that doubles the amount of flak bursts,  and DFAA boosts the damage of flak.  It is still a gamble with relying on flak,  but the reward is so much greater.
(you want to make DFAA a desirable skill for those who choose a AA route.  Is double flak bursts or flak damage greatly increased more beneifical in a hypothetical system like this? Looking at DFAA & PSector,  one gives capabilities to some ships,  whereas the other gives it to almost all ships. No one can really say, so testing/working out the math will decide which skill should get what effect.)  

true but keep in mind that some ships can throw up to 10 flak with the right build. that means 20 flak bursts. a unicum CV player can't evade all of that flak so i say in exchange for doubling flak, you lose your continuous AA damage or at the very least, you lose a large chunk of continuous AA damage. 

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2 hours ago, LabradorRetriever said:

-DFAA,  I don't have anything for DFAA.  Keep it as is?  It can be situationally important, and it covers several different situations with added synergy when used in conjunction with priority sector.

I think re-adding the "panic" effect to planes is probably enough. A flak accuracy bonus might be nice though.

13 minutes ago, josh14735 said:

true but keep in mind that some ships can throw up to 10 flak with the right build. that means 20 flak bursts. a unicum CV player can't evade all of that flak so i say in exchange for doubling flak, you lose your continuous AA damage or at the very least, you lose a large chunk of continuous AA damage. 

This would make sense. Basically focusing on using flak for AA damage(maybe increase accuracy too) would decrease continuous AA damage drastically (almost like a "Sector Reinforcement" for flak). This would also make ships like Atlanta HIGHLY viable for AA duties again! And maybe when this option is selected, the dual-purpose mounts (since they are focused on AA duty) could be unavailable for anti-surface duty...It would still be automatic fire, but focused AA fire, at the cost of standard surface fire. and it would also give a lovely excuse to add in the AA attack animation for DP mounts <3

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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1 hour ago, Karstodes said:

I would also change the ''boost aura damage'' to ''boost aura range''. Making it some -30% for +30% range for its duration, making AA a better teamwork element than it is now.

Ok, THIS is pretty interesting. Much more consistent AA damage at the cost of actual AA damage. I like it! I like it A LOT!!!

2v4Q.gif

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I’d say a simpler effect is to:

 

1. have AA always act like current priority sector is active (won’t hurt CV’s that know how to dodge flak) always.

2. Change priority sector button to either instantly spawn flak in the direction your cursor is pointed OR delay is 1 or so seconds in order to force you to lead the PS action… like spawning flak in the direction you think the planes will be.

 

Currently, all flak bursts spawn based on where the plane is heading, so it’s easily predicted and dodged in any CV whose planes turn fast enough to dodge.

 

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1 minute ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Ok, THIS is pretty interesting. Much more consistent AA damage at the cost of actual AA damage. I like it! I like it A LOT!!!

2v4Q.gif

taking my Gouden Leewu (Yes, i grinded that line) as an example. it has 6 km AA range. doing my math, it would extend the range by 1.8 km. that's 7.8 km range.  if you build for AA, you can throw 10 flak at that range. it doesn't matter if the planes can dodge Flak, they would have to do it farther away from the ship. 

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15 minutes ago, josh14735 said:

true but keep in mind that some ships can throw up to 10 flak with the right build. that means 20 flak bursts. a unicum CV player can't evade all of that flak so i say in exchange for doubling flak, you lose your continuous AA damage or at the very least, you lose a large chunk of continuous AA damage. 

Thanks for pointing that out. 

Some of the numbers and descriptions I've put out are made simple to look at and pick up the concept.  Attempt to make those walls of text,  easier to digest.

(could make that specifically 50% more flak bursts or whatever number is fair in the bigger picture)

 

 

This is a general message to everyone,  not aimed at you Josh.

From LWM's recent posts,  I've been enlightened and the focus of this topic is not balance.  That is a whole other topic!  But it is unavoidable,  and continued discussion and analysis is a good thing!  That is fine,  keep talking about the balance.

 

It is trying to find ways to make the interactions better.   And the end goal I would think is to have AA vs Planes be more interesting, engaging, fun.  I assume there are complex systems and limitations in the game engine, that could make it tougher to get right.

Do I think WG can find the perfect systems to have interesting, engaging, and fun AA mechanics?   I really can't say.   But you have to make the best of a situation and if you can get 2 out of those 3 items, that is something I can appreciate.

 

(of course I would want to be very interested, engaged and having fun when doing something.   But you don't necessarily need all three,  or you can't due to whatever reason/limitation.

I can watch a black & white documentary on the building of the Golden Gate bridge.  Learn about the successes, the tragedies,  the engineering feat that it is.  It is interesting no doubt, and I definitely was engaged in watching it.  Was it fun?,  no not to me.   But it did its job as the doc creators wanted, and I'm glad to experience it.) 

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1 hour ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

I think re-adding the "panic" effect to planes is probably enough.

The panic effect is now true panic in the players who see those scary red flak bursts and figure that they probably are not going to be able to make it in close for a good torpedo drop and thus just drop before the aiming reticule has stabilized in hopes that at least one torpedo might hit something.

I really don't see that AA is all that weak now. Those CCs and former CCs who say it's so are usually showing videos of CV super-unicums who have spent thousands of hours perfecting flak dodging, slingshot timing, and ordinance aiming as proof. True CV experts comprise 10% of the player population, if even that. You might see one in one out of 25 or so games. The vast majority of CV players just run straight in through the flak and hope for the best.

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6 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

The panic effect is now true panic in the players who see those scary red flak bursts and figure that they probably are not going to be able to make it in close for a good torpedo drop and thus just drop before the aiming reticule has stabilized in hopes that at least one torpedo might hit something.

I really don't see that AA is all that weak now. Those CCs and former CCs who say it's so are usually showing videos of CV super-unicums who have spent thousands of hours perfecting flak dodging, slingshot timing, and ordinance aiming as proof. True CV experts comprise 10% of the player population, if even that. You might see one in one out of 25 or so games. The vast majority of CV players just run straight in through the flak and hope for the best.

I respectfully disagree that AA is in a "good place". I mean, I'm a CV newbie, to be fair, and even I haven't been having too much trouble getting my attacks through if I try just a little bit to dodge flak (so far, only Co-Op and Training Battles though, admittedly, so be advised). That said, as a battleship main, I am seeing the effect of my AA FIRST-HAND against these CVs. And....yeah, it's EXTREMELY lackluster (and we're talking HIGH AA ratings, ok, not even low ratings). Heck, I've even tried the FULL AA build (on California for goodness sake!!!), and at BEST you shoot down MAYBE one more plane per attack run. It's not very fun either. You hit tab (or O or whatever key), and you Just Dodge!TM, and good luck dodging all the time in your Standard Type BB, btw, at sub-16 knots. Also when you dodge, you can end up out of position against surface ships, so you're screwed that way too, just saying. It is a possible scenario(somewhat common actually). And as for your flak, it's just NOT reliable. Not even close.

And no, I'm pretty sure I wasn't facing CV unicums or anything, so any half-competent CV player can PROBABLY avoid most, if not all flak, with the current system. The AA mechanic can use adjustment, for double sure. Even if it was just AA range mods. It would be a start, I think.

 

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2 hours ago, josh14735 said:

taking my Gouden Leewu (Yes, i grinded that line) as an example. it has 6 km AA range. doing my math, it would extend the range by 1.8 km. that's 7.8 km range.  if you build for AA, you can throw 10 flak at that range. it doesn't matter if the planes can dodge Flak, they would have to do it farther away from the ship. 

That actually sounds like fun, tbh : ) Even though flak is fairly easily avoidable, it's still MORE time for the flak to potentially be useful in some manner.

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35 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

The panic effect is now true panic in the players who see those scary red flak bursts and figure that they probably are not going to be able to make it in close for a good torpedo drop and thus just drop before the aiming reticule has stabilized in hopes that at least one torpedo might hit something.

I really don't see that AA is all that weak now. Those CCs and former CCs who say it's so are usually showing videos of CV super-unicums who have spent thousands of hours perfecting flak dodging, slingshot timing, and ordinance aiming as proof. True CV experts comprise 10% of the player population, if even that. You might see one in one out of 25 or so games. The vast majority of CV players just run straight in through the flak and hope for the best.

If AA isn't all that weak, you wouldn't be seeing posts like this. 

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17 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

I respectfully disagree that AA is in a "good place".

 

I don't have much trouble with planes when sailing my Massachusetts; I don't have it AA spec'd per se either. I've only been sunk by planes, as far as I can tell, twice in the past several months. One of those times was when I was low on hitpoints already and the other was a lucky detonation. Usually, if someone wants AA cover then they will sail near me. I really wish they still gave signals for AA Expert because I'd have thousands of them by now.

I still think that a lot of AA complainers (not saying that you are one) don't use signals and don't use priority sector either, not to mention sail their BBs out alone where the have no cover from surrounding ships.

Many times a CV can't do a thing to protect itself against a ship with good AA. Take this, for example. The CV could do nothing to prevent himself from being sunk. He finally tried to ram but it was to no avail.

image.png.deea28cb2fd08b1b01b5429361b4aad3.png

AA doesn't mean that no plan ordinance is ever going to hit you, it means that it is likely that less plane ordinance is going to hit you than otherwise.

 

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11 minutes ago, josh14735 said:

If AA isn't all that weak, you wouldn't be seeing posts like this. 

If AA was truly as weak as many say it is than CVs would be running rampant and coming in at the top of their teams in most matches. Instead, you rarely see a CV at the top of its team. Mostly, even a relatively-good CV player is going to fall somewhere in the middle.

And even if you get past the flak, most CV players are going to have trouble leading with their rockets and torpedoes and getting good hits with their dive bombs. Sure, a few experts have this down pat too but they are very rarely seen in random matches.

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2 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

If AA was truly as weak as many say it is than CVs would be running rampant and coming in at the top of their teams in most matches. Instead, you rarely see a CV at the top of its team. Mostly, even a relatively-good CV player is going to fall somewhere in the middle.

I don't believe you and I are playing the same game here. Again, If AA is as weak as you say, We wouldn't seeing posts like this. there wouldn't be an overall sense of contempt for CVs in general. also the same can be said of relatively good player. they're going to be somewhere in the middle if they play their ship well enough.

15 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

And even if you get past the flak, most CV players are going to have trouble leading with their rockets and torpedoes and getting good hits with their dive bombs. Sure, a few experts have this down pat too but they are very rarely seen in random matches.

Any competent CV player can accurately lead torps. the rocket part is the only part i agree with. 

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AA will remain broken because WG wants to promote CV's  WG had to nerf AA for these Cv's ,WG has a CV main on staff  WG has even shoved Super CV's into the game  regardless of what a vast majority want  Any opposition to CV's will be crushed ..Super ships and their CV counter parts should be a whole new mode POST WW2  

Edited by Bellicose_Intent

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2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I still think that a lot of AA complainers (not saying that you are one) don't use signals and don't use priority sector either,

Well, I'll say this, you HAVE to use Priority Sector, that is where your biggest boost to AA is, basically. If you're not using that and then complaining about AA, well then that's dumb.

2 hours ago, josh14735 said:

Any competent CV player can accurately lead torps.

100% agree, you can easily lead with torps

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Many times a CV can't do a thing to protect itself against a ship with good AA. Take this, for example. The CV could do nothing to prevent himself from being sunk. He finally tried to ram but it was to no avail.

Well also, it was Kidd vs a Saipan, which is a light CV that has NO secondaries, so literally if Saipan is found and within torpedo range of that Kidd, she's toast. There's no way around that. Even if Kidd missed their torps, they can just sail around with NO real danger and just gun it down. Basically put, if a CV is found and within main battery range of a ship, then it's probably gonna get sunk eventually. That's just the way it goes. (unless you're Graf Zeppelin with meme secondaries ;P)

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