Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
MN1234

MM-I don't think that means what you think it means

44 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,013
[SUB4]
Members
1,714 posts
13,140 battles

I have resisted griping about MM but I'm ready now.

Very simply, if we constantly have lopsided matches your MM is not working properly.

I played a couple of matches in T2 today and lost both, badly.

In both matches I was either the last or second to last player left alive.

You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic.

Please do something about it WG. How about just ditching it and let it truly be random?

If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, I will just have to leave this game for my own sanity.

I should clear one thing up. This happens across the board in all modes. I don't want to hear anyone question my skill because I am nowhere near a noob and I know how to play, at the lowers tiers especially.

Edited by MN1234
  • Cool 2
  • Boring 3
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,757
Members
6,889 posts
14,873 battles

The weaker team always loses is false and several folks have posted screens to prove it.  MM matches random people and has ZERO "skill" element as has been noted about a million times already and why it can't be done about a million more.  MM is doing exactly what they want it to do - get matches quickly made.  It is you, who is adding any type of "skill" as a thing it is "doing" but it isn't. 

The title of the thread is patently false and there is no way to spin it to be true.  But you know this but still insist on these threads for some reason.

Edited by CylonRed
  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,013
[SUB4]
Members
1,714 posts
13,140 battles
6 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

The weaker team always loses is false and several folks have posted screens to prove it.  MM matches random people and has ZERO "skill" element as has been noted about a million times already and why it can't be done about a million more.  MM is doing exactly what they want it to do - get matches quickly made.  It is you, who is adding any type of "skill" as a thing it is "doing" but it isn't. 

The title of the thread is patently false and there is no way to spin it to me true.  But you know this but still insist on these threads for some reason.

I never said the weaker team always loses.

This is what I actually said.

"You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic."

I only mentioned losing games. I never said anything about winning.

I also said nothing about "skill", only mentioning player skill level. I don't know what you're talking about or where you got it from.

If you can't address what I actually said don't bother replying.

Edited by MN1234
  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
894
[CHA0S]
Members
693 posts
6,739 battles

Stop using MMM then.  It doesn't help anyone, and is actually detrimental more often then people seem to realize.

  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,757
Members
6,889 posts
14,873 battles
15 minutes ago, MN1234 said:

I never said the weaker team always loses.

This is what I actually said.

"You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic."

I only mentioned losing games. I never said anything about winning.

I also said nothing about "skill", only mentioning player skill level. I don't know what you're talking about or where you got it from.

If you can't address what I actually said don't bother replying.

I did...  Replace my skill with your "player skill level" - it is the SAME thing.

 

Not to mention:
"Very simply, if we constantly have lopsided matches your MM is not working properly. "

The above is patently false.

" I played a couple of matches in T2 today and lost both, badly. "

Does not mean a darn thing

" In both matches I was either the last or second to last player left alive. "

Again - so?  It doesn't matter or realty mean anything - kinda like the previous one.

" You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic. "

Again - patently false as already noted - MM does NOT know how 1 player will play any given game much less 24 mixed together.

"Please do something about it WG. How about just ditching it and let it truly be random? "

Already is but...

"If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, "

Again - no - learn some statistics while you are at it as well.  You can't even define "weaker" unless you use the trash that is MMM where people decidde ahead of time if they are going to actually try and play.

" If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, "\

It can get frustrating but you are deciding that WG has everything to do about it without anything that is a fact.

" This happens across the board in all modes. I don't want to hear anyone question my skill because I am nowhere near a noob and I know how to play, at the lowers tiers especially. "

More stuff that does not matter  but you have proven it is random by it being across game modes.  Just because you have "skill" - does not mean you won't lose games even in low tiers.

 

Your "arguments" are made up stuff.  And my original post still stands (especially "The title of the thread is patently false and there is no way to spin it to be true") because it is relevant, but you don't want to believe it.

Edited by CylonRed
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
777
[RSL]
Members
897 posts
13,665 battles

You're playing at T2, which hardly anyone plays and is essentially coop. A single player can singlehandedly carry a T2 match by themselves, so drawing conclusions about the MM as a whole based on T2 is completely illogical,

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,757
Members
6,889 posts
14,873 battles
Just now, SirPent13 said:

You're playing at T2, which hardly anyone plays and is essentially coop. A single player can singlehandedly carry a T2 match by themselves, so drawing conclusions about the MM as a whole based on T2 is completely illogical,

And that is his forte...

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,013
[SUB4]
Members
1,714 posts
13,140 battles
9 minutes ago, crazyeightyfive said:

Stop using MMM then.  It doesn't help anyone, and is actually detrimental more often then people seem to realize.

That may be.I'll consider it. Thank you and I do appreciate your comment.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,013
[SUB4]
Members
1,714 posts
13,140 battles
6 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

And that is his forte...

I did it to test my hypothesis. Once again someone commenting on a thread they do not comprehend. I normally play between t5 and t8.

  • Funny 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,013
[SUB4]
Members
1,714 posts
13,140 battles
12 minutes ago, CylonRed said:

I did...  Replace my skill with your "player skill level" - it is the SAME thing.

 

Not to mention:
"Very simply, if we constantly have lopsided matches your MM is not working properly. "

The above is patently false.

" I played a couple of matches in T2 today and lost both, badly. "

Does not mean a darn thing

" In both matches I was either the last or second to last player left alive. "

Again - so?  It doesn't matter or realty mean anything - kinda like the previous one.

" You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic. "

Again - patently false as already noted - MM does NOT know how 1 player will play any given game much less 24 mixed together.

"Please do something about it WG. How about just ditching it and let it truly be random? "

Already is but...

"If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, "

Again - no - learn some statistics while you are at it as well.  You can't even define "weaker" unless you use the trash that is MMM where people decidde ahead of time if they are going to actually try and play.

" If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, "\

It can get frustrating but you are deciding that WG has everything to do about it without anything that is a fact.

" This happens across the board in all modes. I don't want to hear anyone question my skill because I am nowhere near a noob and I know how to play, at the lowers tiers especially. "

More stuff that does not matter  but you have proven it is random by it being across game modes.  Just because you have "skill" - does not mean you won't lose games even in low tiers.

 

Your "arguments" are made up stuff.  And my original post still stands (especially "The title of the thread is patently false and there is no way to spin it to be true") because it is relevant, but you don't want to believe it.

I respectfully disagree.

One has to be willfully blind to not know that this mismatching happens a lot.

You obviously have anger issues and a penchant for bullying and diminishing anothers' experiences.. Go sell it somewhere else.

Edited by MN1234
  • Boring 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,449
[WG]
Administrator, WG Staff
6,604 posts
16,525 battles
2 hours ago, MN1234 said:

Please do something about it WG. How about just ditching it and let it truly be random?

Our Matchmaker already is Random.  It's not programmed to understand winning or losing.  It just grabs people that queue and puts them in a match.

You can watch a video that details the whole thing here:

Direct Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7PmOMVLgsE

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,449
[WG]
Administrator, WG Staff
6,604 posts
16,525 battles
2 hours ago, MN1234 said:

That may be.I'll consider it. Thank you and I do appreciate your comment.

"Matchmaking Monitor" is a recipe for frustration.  Random Battles is a ball of chaos as no crystal ball can accurately predict what 24 different people are going to happen to do.  There may be odds and likelihoods, but reality is often wildly complex and variable.  Even superunicum divs still lose.

A thing to remember:

  • You will Lose 20% of the games you play regardless of what you do.
  • You will Win 20% of the games you play regardless of what you do.
  • You will Actively Effect 60% of the games you play through your decision-making and gameplay.

You may well have rough teams and lose some games.  That may well be unavoidable as the above breakdown would imply that a player with 10,000 games ended up losing 2,000 games in ways that were completely unrecoverable. 

At the same time, they won 2,000 games regardless of what they did.

  • Cool 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,966
[ARS]
Beta Testers
8,340 posts
9,620 battles
3 hours ago, MN1234 said:

I have resisted griping about MM but I'm ready now.

Very simply, if we constantly have lopsided matches your MM is not working properly.

I played a couple of matches in T2 today and lost both, badly.

In both matches I was either the last or second to last player left alive.

You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic.

Please do something about it WG. How about just ditching it and let it truly be random?

If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, I will just have to leave this game for my own sanity.

I should clear one thing up. This happens across the board in all modes. I don't want to hear anyone question my skill because I am nowhere near a noob and I know how to play, at the lowers tiers especially.

Snowball effect is the primary cause of blowouts, not imbalanced teams.  Imbalanced teams do usually predicted the ultimate winning and losing team, but not usually the quality of that win.

Snowball effect is what your ire ought to be focused on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,007
Members
1,210 posts

This game is made up of around 15% of the player base that are competitive and who care about being good at the game. The other 85% is made up of non competitive players who just want to play, collect ships, watch their ship pew pew or any combo of those. As soon as you realize that you will be better off. If you want to be in a competitive place then be good enough to get into one of the competitive clans and play clan battles at that level and maybe even KoTs. There is nothing the MM can do that would help the game in a competitive way in random battles... there just is not enough players in the game and for sure not enough competitive players where the MM could even them out. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,552
[X-PN]
Members
3,837 posts
17,722 battles
56 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

Our Matchmaker already is Random**.  It's not programmed to understand winning or losing.  It just grabs people that queue and puts them in a match.

 

 

 

**except if there are players divisions.

 

I know you always forget this part....so I fixed it for ya.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
657
[_TKS_]
[_TKS_]
Members
1,498 posts
16,182 battles
3 hours ago, MN1234 said:

If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, I will just - ask nicely. please 

 

image.thumb.png.96a06d4c80c0b7c9ae51c769e5420f83.png

 

*your probably also playing surrounded by BOTS at T2.

Carry on man!! 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,966
[ARS]
Beta Testers
8,340 posts
9,620 battles

Oops

Edited by Helstrem
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,352 posts
3,059 battles
3 hours ago, MN1234 said:

I did it to test my hypothesis.

You tested a hypothesis with a sample size of two. How the actual :etc_swear: would the conditions for Independence or Large Counts be satisfied here?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
143 posts
148 battles
2 hours ago, Ahskance said:

"Matchmaking Monitor" is a recipe for frustration. 

any chance that a future revision/overwork of the WG Public API (which I guess is used) will make such tools unusable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44
[E-M-S]
Members
99 posts
9,451 battles

just going to throw this out there. I don't play randoms much as I'm a casual player. I have a losing % in randoms. the only common thread is... <wait for it> ME! yes, it seems that my being on the bottom end of mediocre in PVP leads directly to a higher % of losses than wins. now mind you, I'm not TRYING to lose or sabotage things in any way but my mere presence on a team means you are likely going to be at a ship disadvantage early in the match as I excel at being the victim of the First Blood achievement (not always, I'm also very good at "It's Just a Flesh Wound"). I haven't played randoms in over a month so I know I wasn't a factor in any of the matches you complain of, but I can tell you with 100% accuracy that 50% of the player base falls into the same situation as me. and before anyone flames me with the ubiquitous "Get Good" nonsense, allow me to also say that should I choose to do so it will be by playing in Randoms to build my skill, and while I do so I'll be helping even more battles have a losing team. Have a nice day!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,714
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
19,325 posts

bell-curve.jpg

If you limited matchmaking of top performers to playing other top performers then they would be waiting quite a long time for their games to start. Now, this isn't that much of a concern with scheduled events but few players are going to be willing to wait ten minutes or more to play a 20 minute random match.

But that if your matchmaker balanced top performers between the random teams? Well, this would still result in longer wait times for the top performers as they would be waiting in the queue until another one showed up to balance the teams.

But, wait, we also need to take into consideration ship type and tier played too. You can see how this can quickly lead to very long wait times.

And this isn't only for top performers but for new players too, New players oftentimes have lower winrates until they get the hang of the game and thus fall at the other end of the bell curve. Nothing rings the death knell for a game faster than making new players wait too long until the matchmaker deigns to allow them to play in a match.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
483
[-NACL]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
1,697 posts
28,327 battles
9 hours ago, MN1234 said:

I have resisted griping about MM but I'm ready now.

Very simply, if we constantly have lopsided matches your MM is not working properly.

I played a couple of matches in T2 today and lost both, badly.

In both matches I was either the last or second to last player left alive.

You cannot tell me that the better players are almost always on the same side. It defies logic.

Please do something about it WG. How about just ditching it and let it truly be random?

If I keep losing games because I am on the weaker team almost always, I will just have to leave this game for my own sanity.

I should clear one thing up. This happens across the board in all modes. I don't want to hear anyone question my skill because I am nowhere near a noob and I know how to play, at the lowers tiers especially.

We were all noobs once, so nobody except trolls are likely going to call you that. However, I know a few things that have helped me out, once I finally started to take my own advice:

1. Take a break if I am losing multiple matches.
2. Don't play while tilted/angry. It's one thing to respond to trash talk with your own, though be prepared to get chat banned for going down to their level. I still do that here and there.
3. Play a ship you like and are good at, until you lose in it... then move on to the next ship. Lose two in a row, see #1. Remember #2.
4. Say a few goosfrabas, an RnGebus prayer, and whatever else might get you in a better mood and on to winning.
5. Try to convince teammates to work together. Don't be  rude about it, just say "hey guys, do you think we should focus fire? Which caps should we fight for? " Anything at all. You'll be surprised, but closer to 50% of the matches I can get at least 1-2 people that respond and communicate via chat/map commands at least.

 

Also... if you're using tier 2 as a reference, remember t1-4 are almost always filled with bots. They have names like ":Ghormley:" or ":Hipper:" with the colons in front of and behind the names. T5 can still see bots late at night. T6+ rarely will see any t5 bots. 

9 hours ago, crazyeightyfive said:

Stop using MMM then.  It doesn't help anyone, and is actually detrimental more often then people seem to realize.

This. Unless you can realize that MM Monitor is just a guide to help you decide who might be a teammate worth supporting, worth going out of your way to work with/etc... and/or "hey this div here might not be worth pushing against, because they're super good..."  deciding right off the bat that your team is going to lose puts you into a negative mindset. If you can't separate the emotion from the statistics, don't bother tracking it... 

8 hours ago, MN1234 said:

That may be.I'll consider it. Thank you and I do appreciate your comment.

So, you're admitting to using the "stat shame" monitor, while hiding your stats... but expecting us to believe your own skill and teamwork isn't to be questioned? I call that into question. If you're in the business of treating others as the bad players, at least have the stones to unhide the profile and make it fair game... let them see yours as well. 


I'm not trying to be mean, as you see I just gave you sound advice... I'm simply trying to help you let reality sink in. You are in effect shaming your teammates by saying you expect it to be a loss, you're straddled with bad teams, etc...  Yes, we all get at least some percentage of our battles as wins and some percent of our battles as losses, regardless of what we do... as Ahskance stated... whether it's perfectly 20/20/60 or not.., I dunno...  But, even if it's closer to 10/10/80, or 30/30/40, whatever... what we do and how we respond to the pressure is up to us. That is not on the cherry red tomatoiest player on your team... that is on us. 

 

P.S. I used to have this asinine mentality and attitude toward sub-50% players, especially in ranked...  that much negative energy helped lead me to lose more matches than I should, because my anger and frustration made me make some rather bad mistakes of my own.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,757
Members
6,889 posts
14,873 battles
11 hours ago, MN1234 said:

You obviously have anger issues and a penchant for bullying and diminishing anothers' experiences.. Go sell it somewhere else.

Yes - you do have those issues - funny how there is no anger just reality and you claim you know something more than the people who coded the game and no actual facts.  Brilliant "logic" there..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×