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Grand_Admiral_Murrel

Mackensen is too Good. Until it isn't.

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I have a soft spot for my Mackensen. She's got fantastic accuracy, good maneuverability, and excellent stealth (11.5 km). I'm a rebel, and build her for (more!) accuracy and survivability. She's OP in ranked, and can pull her weight in just about any matchup. 

Tier 8 game I had last week, survived to the end of the match with 120k dmg (I think), 4 kills (my Kraken got denied by the end of the game)

2 games ago: 

image.thumb.png.6eed275c8fa6fb481fed8ac9c09b42ff.png

Last match: 

image.thumb.png.fbd34b4f1795c2438af449cb37490edc.png

WG devs: "Whatever game you think you're playing, those out there are not playing it with you."

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42 minutes ago, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

I have a soft spot for my Mackensen. She's got fantastic accuracy, good maneuverability, and excellent stealth (11.5 km). I'm a rebel, and build her for (more!) accuracy and survivability. She's OP in ranked, and can pull her weight in just about any matchup. 

With German 88mm guns having (and always having had) 1/6 pen, and IFHE only boosting their poor 15mm pen to 18mm, this is the optimal way to build Mackensen, as well as the ships that precede her. These ships’ poor sigma (1.5-1.6) also means that the decreased dispersion offered by ASM1 is more valuable than on the ships at the high end of the line. Mackensen is the first ship of the line to have MA/German CV secondary dispersion (preceding ships have “standard” German BB dispersion), but her secondary battery itself compromises the effectiveness of a secondary build.

IMO, a secondary build only really starts to become viable on the German CCs with Prinz Heinrich, and it’s still debatable if that build is better than a more standard BB build on the tier VII. The B hull replaces her 88mm guns with 105mm dual purpose guns (26mm pen), and Prinz Heinrich’s main battery performance is pretty poor overall, having the same shells as tier VI Bayern and only 1.5 sigma. This means her main battery performance can be frustrating despite having CB/CC dispersion. She is also the first ship in the line with torpedoes, although German CC torpedoes are generally not as effective brawling weapons as the faster, shorter-ranged weapons found on German BBs and cruisers. On the other hand, Prinz Heinrich occupies that awkward spot of most tier VII BBs were there is still an uncomfortably large gap between her maximum secondary range and her minimum concealment, which feels worse on the German CC because she’s significantly softer than Gneisenau and Scharnhorst (as well as slower). This is also the tier where secondary battleships become more difficult to play effectively as the meta shifts further and further to more lethal combat at longer ranges.

The German CCs don’t start to become true secondary monsters until tier VIII, when they gain access to truly long range secondaries and CSM1 in upgrade slot 5. This allows a very small gap between their surface detection range and secondary range, being only 0.5km on Zieten and effectively zero for Schlieffen. Tier VIII-X also have 1.7 sigma, which combined with CB/CC dispersion and their larger guns (406-420mm) leads to comfortable main battery performance without ASM1. 

Edited by Nevermore135

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15 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Prinz Heinrich’s main battery performance is pretty poor overall

Yeah, is it just me or is her vertical dispersion worse than that on Mackensen? I just found Mackensen to be a more consistent gunnery platform. 

Until you get detonated. Then she ain't much good at anything. 

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1 minute ago, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

Yeah, is it just me or is her vertical dispersion worse than that on Mackensen? I just found Mackensen to be a more consistent gunnery platform. 

The vertical dispersion is pretty much identical when you account for range.

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSB206&modules=1111&upgrades=000000&commander=PCW001&consumables=111&pos=0

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSB207&modules=11111&upgrades=000000&commander=PCW001&consumables=111&pos=0

The real issue with Prinz Heinrich’s main battery performance is the terrible 1.5 sigma with only eight barrels. Pommern, Fuso, and New Mexico also have 1.5 sigma, but they have twelve barrels. Novorossiysk at tier VI has CB/CC dispersion like PH and even worse 1.4 sigma, but her extra two barrels go a long way towards making her gunnery feel more comfortable. Prinz Heinrich also has the same shells as Bayern (which aren’t great 15” shells at tier VI) a full tier higher. Add in the fact that you’re generally going to be engaging at longer ranges in higher tier matches, and the tier VII’s gunnery just doesn’t feel very good.

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I like using Mackensen with a secondary build and used her in a small number or random and ranked with good results.

Her hydro is quite good and i put it to good use in one recent ranked battle where I actually drove a DD out of smoke and the combo of secondaries and HE got him while the hydro helped with flushing him out and seeing his torps.

If I had enough captain points I would add concealment and emergency repiar, and try to get a little of everything in the build.

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I also really liked Mackensen.  Kiting, angling and dodging - all the things you should be doing in a (battle)cruiser are the keys to maximizing your longevity.  I actually liked the accuracy of her guns. She may have poor sigma, but the BC dispersion made up for it.

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5 minutes ago, SeaGladius said:

I also really liked Mackensen.  Kiting, angling and dodging - all the things you should be doing in a (battle)cruiser are the keys to maximizing your longevity.  I actually liked the accuracy of her guns. She may have poor sigma, but the BC dispersion made up for it.

Agreed. She really, truly rewards good players who know how to use her strengths and mitigate her weaknesses. 

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mackensen is fun  until cv figures its AA is so bad they can make 3 attacks without lossing a plane... i mean 2x damage per second at t6 is just wrong.

 

and of course there is the 88mm matter. those playing this line do it for the secondary madness so being stuck with the crappy 88mm until t7 leaves a sour taste.

Edited by pepe_trueno
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how does mackensen hell looks like:

botton tier, 2 CVs going for you and your whole team is as far away as posible with your only AA buddy being another mackensen

shot-22_04.14_23_55.31-0092.thumb.jpg.5ff44b28f3da2a30f1ee14b386f78d96.jpg

 

MM 

Tq0sKC.gif

 

 

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2 hours ago, Player_7629970598 said:

Agreed on the AA.  One advantage the PEF has over the Mackensen is her AA and heavier Secondary.

Yeah, PEF can run a viable secondary build, particularly in situations like tier VI-VII ranked where tier VIII ships won’t be present. PEF’s AA also used to be very powerful during her brief presence in the game prior to the CV rework.

I’m fairly certain the reason Mackensen didn’t get a B-hull refit like Prinz Heinrich was because of PEF’s existence. Mackensen with 105mm guns would be a better PEF, hands down.

Edited by Nevermore135

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On 4/15/2022 at 1:53 AM, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

I have a soft spot for my Mackensen. She's got fantastic accuracy, good maneuverability, and excellent stealth (11.5 km). I'm a rebel, and build her for (more!) accuracy and survivability. She's OP in ranked, and can pull her weight in just about any matchup. 

Tier 8 game I had last week, survived to the end of the match with 120k dmg (I think), 4 kills (my Kraken got denied by the end of the game)

 

Cant say Ive really played the Mackensen. But when i saw your post i thought I'd give it a try and have a few games in it. It is really fun, range is a little short but its defiantly one of the better t6 BB's.

Short vid dodging torps for a laugh

edit- first 8 secs is frozen for some reason ><

 

Edited by Retarie
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