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LittleWhiteShark

Advices on how to play Carriers?

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Hi, Im not a good CV player but I want to improve that, I mostly play CVs on tier VI in Operations (and they are very fun, specially the Ryujo) but when sometimes I try CVs in real combat like in Ranked or Random (tier VI mostly) and I barely have a decent game on it. Today I was testing the United States in Coop and I played againts all Superships bots and it was very hard! (but fun in a way) And I lost like 82 planes!! Flak clouds everywhere! Its because I didn't use any captain skills at all? (Because Im not a CV main and I still dont have a decent captain for it) I will appreciate any advices. I leave the replay of my battle in Coop, I did try to avoid flak clouds but they are so many of them, I used pre drops and everything but well, I guess is not enough. Also I will drop a video I found of the United States gameplay, and the player do it so easilly well that I really think Im missing something of how to play them. Thank you all! :fish_aqua:

Replay: 20220402_041947_PASA111-United-States_47_Sleeping_Giant.wowsreplay

shot-22_04.02_04_45.50-0942.thumb.jpg.3537733e27dd340a04d991812beefbfa.jpg

 

shot-22_04.02_04_45.30-0880.thumb.jpg.d703df531125114a39e0c3962e0976eb.jpg

shot-22_04.02_04_39.00-0127.thumb.jpg.7251e98bc0b9694bad170fd189d775f9.jpg

 

Replay of a great CV player I found in Youtoube:

 

 

 

 

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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiU4YKBk-QoOOAa9AGywbw

Ahskance...search here...nuf said

 

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Playing a CV in PvP is not super-hard once you learn a few basics:

 

-The AA is broken AF. Especially at T8 - T10. Flak basically cannot be avoided at high levels.

- The rockets are ... yeah. Not good at T8 - T10. You have to lead targets at a ridiculous amount. T4 - T6 is not bad though.

- You will rarely ever get off more than one strike. Unless attacking an Agincourt or you're at low tier.

- People are [edited]. They'll report you for merely playing a CV.

- Bombs and rockets are about as accurate as coating a fan with liquified excrement then turning it on. You can miss a Yamato with perfect aim.

- SS's are somewhat immune to CV's at the moment due to spotting and accuracy issues. The lack of a depth charge squadron, and inability to damage-con on command.

- The German CV's are basically useless against DD's. Except with secondaries. The UK CV's are probably best for popping DD's.

-The AA stacks when ships blob-up to ridiculous levels.

- Ships dumb enough to hump tall islands are excellent targets.

- DD's with their AA on are "speshul" education candidates. Even if they "think" they're in an AA DD. They basically announce, "hey, kill me" across the map. Oblige the dummies. Get em' killed.

- If a ship gets within 12kms of you, you're dead. Usually. There are exceptions but...

- Using camo's on CV's is kinda stupid. Go naked, and build up your camo collection to be used for ranked and clan battles. A few hundred meters reduced detection doesn't help you.

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1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

 

I'd generally disagree with your assessment but it truthfully comes down to a players mechanical ability and reaction time.

@LittleWhiteShark, T6 is best to learn CV. T4 you learn the controls, T6 you learn target selection and flak control, along with positioning. T8 is refinement, and tier 10 is mastery. Use the US line as it has the best ability to influence the game and most user friendly.

The 3 thing that separates ok from great CV players are:

Flak control, target selection, and fine motor control. Unfortunately we eventually can't control that last one, but we we can to a point where we make an impact somehow with mastering the other two.

Flak: study the image below. Understand that flak spawns in a specific sequence and always tries to be where you will end up based off your current heading and speed. Thus, we control it by making it appear where we don't intend to fly. Mastering this interaction with fine motor control (pressing A or D intermittently and moving your mouse gently) will make flak just a nice animation you fly by. 

image.png.4f1b0d6f641daca635444ac0476044ef.png

Target selection: 

In no particular order, target what is: Close, alone, has bad AA, has low health, is doing something important (capping, creating crossfire etc), can't runaway (due to crossfire's, is bow in, bad turn radius, terrain, etc) and what can be focused by your team. 

If you think about it, destroyers fill most of these parameters. Practice as much as you are willing to in coop or a training room to time your hits with rockets. This really comes down to your reaction time and motor skills. For most DDs, if their Aa is off, you need a fighter to spot it or an allied ship. If, after practicing for at least an hour, can't time it well enough, think about targeting the larger ships and how you can spot the smaller ones. 

You can also use the HE bombers on destroyers. At Lexington, your chances to hit the DD increase much more due to number of bombs, but It is RNG reliant. 

Finally, Watch Askhance on youtube, and other CV basics videos on there. Best of luck.

Edit: there's lot of other stuff like ship placement, thinking ahead, etc, but those 3 are most important. Won't have time to watch replay.

Edited by Merc_R_Us
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2 hours ago, LittleWhiteShark said:

Hi, Im not a good CV player but I want to improve that, I mostly play CVs on tier VI in Operations (and they are very fun, specially the Ryujo) but when sometimes I try CVs in real combat like in Ranked or Random (tier VI mostly) and I barely have a decent game on it. Today I was testing the United States in Coop and I played againts all Superships bots and it was very hard! (but fun in a way) And I lost like 82 planes!! Flak clouds everywhere! Its because I didn't use any captain skills at all? (Because Im not a CV main and I still dont have a decent captain for it) I will appreciate any advices. I leave the replay of my battle in Coop, I did try to avoid flak clouds but they are so many of them, I used pre drops and everything but well, I guess is not enough. Also I will drop a video I found of the United States gameplay, and the player do it so easilly well that I really think Im missing something of how to play them. Thank you all! :fish_aqua:

Welcome to CV Life.  :-)

The Tier-4 CV's let one practice the basics and learn how to aim at targets.  
The Tier-6 CV's add fighter-drops to your capabilities.  These are useful when placed properly for spotting and sometimes for shooting down red-team planes.  Stronger AA is introduced here, as well.
Tier-8 = even more and stronger AA.  Planes fly faster.  Players are more aware of CV's and how to dodge or minimize the effects of your ordnance (most of the time).
 Tier-10 = Strongest AA 'bubbles' discourage loitering near most red-team ships.  Most players are making concsious decisions about whether to dodge a CV's strike or to give broadside to your team-mates.

I like my CV Captains to have at least 9 skill points and prefer 13 skill points.  9 points will let one get the minimum skills to reduce flak damage.  13 is better.
I don't consider my CV Captains to be "fully trained" until 17 skill points.  Eventually (someday?) I'll train one of mine up to 21 skill points.  Currently my highest are at 18 skill points.

In Tier-6 is where I started to learn about "pre-dropping" ordnance on an empty patch of ocean or onto an island while enroute to legitimate targets.
The concept is to reduce the number of planes that will be exposed to AA during an approach to and an attack on a target.
This allows your CV's hull to re-arm and service those planes so they'll be ready for the next sortie instead of shot down or still in the air making their way back to the landing deck.
Normally a player only makes one "pre-drop" per sortie and then uses the remainder of the squadron to continue onwards for an attack or some scouting or whatever.

While I respect @ElectroVeeDub's perspectives and experiences, being able to "dodge" AA/Flak bursts is something that @El2aZeR has said is possible.
I've tried it and do notice a difference.  By zig-zagging enough, or by flying in a curving approach to a target, I've been able to dodge some portion of flak bursts.
I'm not yet able to dodge 100% of flak, yet. 
And sometimes I mis-time my maneuvers and eat double the amount, it seems. 
But, most of the time, I'm able to use aerial WASD hacks to reduce the amount of Flak that my planes experience.
So, I consider it a vital part of my CV playing repertoire.

The Ryujo uses HE rockets, AP bombs and torpedoes with strong warheads.  She's a good choice for attacking BB's.
When attacking smaller and nimble targets with thin armor, her ordnance is less-than-ideal.  It takes a lot of practice and luck to hit a DD with two torpedoes in one drop.
The rockets have approximately a 5 second delay in their firing sequence.  That's a lot of time for a DD to maneuver.
The AP bombs can deliver some satisfying citadel hits, though.  

The Furious uses a pattern of small HE bombs, a pair of converging torpedoes and HE rockets.
Her bombers are great for attacking DD's and Cruisers and don't mind starting fires on other ships, too.  But citadels are pretty-much out of the question.
The torpedoes are slow (35 knots in 'stock' configuration) and have average sized warheads.  Decent, but not spectacular.
The rockets have a similar delay (approximately 5 seconds).
The Furious is better at bombing small & maneuverable targets than the Ryujo is.  But with her ordnance, she relies on damage done over multiple sorties and along with fires & floods.

The US CV's have HVAR rockets and some have 'Tiny Tim' rockets.  The HVAR's have a 5 second delay and the Tiny Tims have a 6 second delay.
The US CV's tend to have wider bomb-drop patterns and use fewer HE bombs per drop than the British CV's.
The US CV's use 35 knot torpedoes with average-sized warheads.
The strong suit of most USN CV's is their ability to be "average" or "meh", but consistent.  
They struggle against small & nimble targets, in my opinion.

The Russian CV's attack with an entire squadron of planes all at once (instead of splitting off two or three planes per attack).
Their torpedoes have a long arming-distance.  This is a serious consideration when aiming.  But, if you can hit with most or all of the torps in a drop, it makes for a strong attack.
Some have rockets.  Some have skip-bombs.  Some have "normal" HE bombs.
Russian planes have below-average HP, so they can't loiter in a flak area.  They can scout if they stay outside of flak bubbles.  But mostly they're intended for offense instead of defense.
Skip-bombs are a nice alternative to using torpedoes to attack ships hiding inside smoke-screens.  Aim carefully, though, because ships will try to comb your bombs just like they dodge torpedoes.

German CV's have rocket planes with the shortest firing delay.  It's approximately 2 seconds.  The attack approach takes some getting used to, though.
German CV's have some of the best secondary-battery gun suites among CV's.  It's meme-level fun if you have enough Captain's skill points to develop it.  :-)
Other than that, most use AP bombs, AP rockets and a variety of torpedoes with below-average sized warheads.
A few (one?) have a skip-bomb squadron.
Planes are fast, but have low amounts of HP.
Learn to use torpedoes on a DD, because hitting with other ordnance is likely to yield small amounts of damage.  German CV's have an emphasis on attacking larger & well-armored ships.

When using rocket planes, don't fly over an island.
Seriously, flying over any amount of land screws-up the rocket-plane's approach.  (Try it, and you'll see.)
Always make your rocket-plane attack approaches while over water, please.


If you have the time, I encourage you to visit @Ahskance's youtube channel and watch his "How to CV" videos.  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiU4YKBk-QoOOAa9AGywbw/featured

I'll enclose some of my crude illustrations that I've created over the years, intended to highlight some of my information.

Good luck and have fun.  :-)

 

Spoiler



1966544482_Bombrunillustrationofflightpathinacartoonishmanner_07-20-2020_forEstimated_Prophetonforums_.thumb.jpg.05848452993acced9a8ee5d5effd9080.jpg

.2086914849_TorpedoattackrunforBattleshipIseandhertorpedoplanescrudelyillustrated_01-06-2022_.thumb.jpg.80686e402f4275668bc4c76f6c683a57.jpg

1508810575_Torpedorunwhereinshipstaysoncourseandreceivesmultiplestrikes_07-22-2020_.thumb.jpg.28925421d74ac06d99805becd4b91129.jpg

The above illustration depicts a torpedo squadron making multiple attacks on a ship that is sailing in a straight line.
Normally this is only feasible at Tier-4 or when red-team ships have little AA to speak of.
By Tier-6 most people have stronger AA to discourage this option.

 

If you have additional questions, feel free to ask.

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I find using CVs with skip bombing is easier getting the hang of then dive bombing -dive bombing characteristics vary quite a bit IMHO from CV to CV. 

For me it was a steep learning curve. I had a lot fun with them until TVIII. At the tier it seemed I could not get near ANY red ship before AA took out all my planes and I stopped playing them for quite a while. I'm just about to get a TVIII CV again (I sold me first one) with the experienced I gain since then. I found the video mentioned here a great help. I also downloaded the TEST version of WOWS to play CVs with reckless abandonment just to get a feel how different CVs feel and work across all tiers -God the new carriers with jets there was such a rush for me!

 

Edited by Aurora_7
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Good flak-burst illustrations @Merc_R_Us.  Thanks for sharing.  :-)

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8 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Good flak-burst illustrations @Merc_R_Us.  Thanks for sharing.  :-)

Thanks, Not my creation but one of the better ones out there.

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Just now, Merc_R_Us said:

Thanks, Not my creation but one of the better ones out there.

I copied it to my image library.  Hope you'll take that as a compliment.  :-)

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6 hours ago, LittleWhiteShark said:

Flak clouds everywhere! Its because I didn't use any captain skills at all?

Flak no matter how much there is is 100% avoidable as it spawns based on your current heading and speed, meaning you are in full control over it. It is best avoided preemptively, aka before it even appears on your screen. See the illustration above for a basic evasion technique.
Captain skills can have a fairly significant impact but are meaningless if the basics of play are not learned.

In general to be successful in CV play there are two fundamental skills you need to master which are flak evasion and proper aim. In your case both need some work. I highly recommend experimenting a bit in the training room against stationary but armed bots for flak evasion and moving but unarmed bots for aiming practice.

For guides, videos made by Ahskance and ReimuBakarei are great at teaching you the basics (do take care to make sure that these are actually up to date though, some of these videos can be quite old and possibly do not reflect current mechanics). If you prefer something in written form, to my knowledge you are unfortunately out of luck.

 

4 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

-The AA is broken AF. Especially at T8 - T10. Flak basically cannot be avoided at high levels.

- The rockets are ... yeah. Not good at T8 - T10. You have to lead targets at a ridiculous amount. T4 - T6 is not bad though.

- You will rarely ever get off more than one strike. Unless attacking an Agincourt or you're at low tier.

- People are [edited]. They'll report you for merely playing a CV.

- Bombs and rockets are about as accurate as coating a fan with liquified excrement then turning it on. You can miss a Yamato with perfect aim.

- SS's are somewhat immune to CV's at the moment due to spotting and accuracy issues. The lack of a depth charge squadron, and inability to damage-con on command.

- The German CV's are basically useless against DD's. Except with secondaries. The UK CV's are probably best for popping DD's.

-The AA stacks when ships blob-up to ridiculous levels.

- Ships dumb enough to hump tall islands are excellent targets.

- DD's with their AA on are "speshul" education candidates. Even if they "think" they're in an AA DD. They basically announce, "hey, kill me" across the map. Oblige the dummies. Get em' killed.

- If a ship gets within 12kms of you, you're dead. Usually. There are exceptions but...

- Using camo's on CV's is kinda stupid. Go naked, and build up your camo collection to be used for ranked and clan battles. A few hundred meters reduced detection doesn't help you.

AA is generally very weak even in high tiers. Flak is 100% avoidable.

Rockets remain excellent tools for certain applications, their effectiveness has not changed much. Even the novice above who is asking for help seems perfectly capable of scoring rocket hits, so it clearly cannot be that difficult.
Also the difference in delay between T4 and T10 is a mere 0.2 seconds on standard rockets.

2 attacks is standard even against groups.

People dislike broken mechanics. Go figure.

Bombs and rockets are both fairly accurate across the board. It is not possible to miss a BB with perfect aim.

True, but subs are generally not much of a concern unless you do not watch your positioning.

German TBs are perfectly usable against DDs and you can also still score decent hits with rockets. The best anti DD line is US.

Ships that group up so that their AA is actually effective give up map control, as such this is always in your favor. Ships that group up only within long range AA of each other present a negligible increase in AA strength since long range AA is typically weaker than or equal to the total DPS output of a single Shimakaze.

That depends on your squad of choice and possible attack angles the island affords you. Regardless there can only be bad and worse positioning against a CV anyway.

Depending on the situation it can be advantageous for the DD to leave its AA on believe it or not.

CVs are excellent at self defense as their damage output skyrockets at mid ranges and they are reasonably tanky. This typically enables them to outtrade any opposition.

Camos can be used for more than just concealment.

Edited by El2aZeR
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1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Flak no matter how much there is is 100% avoidable as it spawns based on your current heading and speed, meaning you are in full control over it. It is best avoided preemptively, aka before it even appears on your screen. See the illustration above for a basic evasion technique.
Captain skills can have a fairly significant impact but are meaningless if the basics of play are not learned.

In general to be successful in CV play there are two fundamental skills you need to master which are flak evasion and proper aim. In your case both need some work. I highly recommend experimenting a bit in the training room against stationary but armed bots for flak evasion and moving but unarmed bots for aiming practice.

 

AA is generally very weak even in high tiers. Flak is 100% avoidable.

Rockets remain excellent tools for certain applications, their effectiveness has not changed much. Even the novice above who is asking for help seems perfectly capable of scoring rocket hits, so it clearly cannot be that difficult.
Also the difference in delay between T4 and T10 is a mere 0.2 seconds on standard rockets.

2 attacks is standard even against groups.

People dislike broken mechanics. Go figure.

Bombs and rockets are both fairly accurate across the board. It is not possible to miss a BB with perfect aim.

True, but subs are generally not much of a concern unless you do not watch your positioning.

German TBs are perfectly usable against DDs and you can also still score decent hits with rockets. The best anti DD line is US.

Ships that group up so that their AA is actually effective give up map control, as such this is always in your favor. Ships that group up only within long range AA of each other present a negligible increase in AA strength since long range AA is typically weaker than or equal to the total DPS output of a single Shimakaze.

That depends on your squad of choice and possible attack angles the island affords you. Regardless there can only be bad and worse positioning against a CV anyway.

Depending on the situation it can be advantageous for the DD to leave its AA on believe it or not.

CVs are excellent at self defense as their damage output skyrockets at mid ranges and they are reasonably tanky. This typically enables them to outtrade any opposition.

Camos can be used for more than just concealment.

 

So much wrong in one comment. Where to start?

 

Negative. If you have 3 waves of attack aircraft and 2/3rds of them are vaporized on every attack run... that's a gameplay design problem. You will lose 66% of your planes guaranteed regardless of how good of a player you think you are because the AA stacks and ships are usually within 5.8 kms of eachother. You might dodge some flak from one ship, but you'll get nailed by the other ships flak. You can easily see a dozen flak bursts in one place. So many you cannot see the target. The flak stacks, and comes from numerous directions making it impossible to dodge.

Negative. Rockets are extremely ineffective at higher tiers. It shouldn't take 10 squadrons and 10 minutes to drop one Kleber. Once again, all you can do is get off one attack. Two if you're lucky and the AA isn't stacked. I don't know what video-game you're playing... but the delay is NOT "a mere 0.2 seconds" difference between T4 to T10. The delay is FAR longer.

Negative. "2 attacks is standard even against groups: ". Incorrect. You cannot always get off 2 attacks. Especially NOT "against groups".  One attack is guaranteed. Two is a toss up. Three near impossible. This is why people ditch aircraft prior to attacking. 

Negative. "Bombs and rockets are both fairly accurate across the board. It is not possible to miss a BB with perfect aim." - I've done it myself and literally have watched the bombs completely miss battleships with perfect aim. The rockets can destroyers and subs easily.

Negative. "German TBs are perfectly usable against DDs and you can also still score decent hits with rockets. The best anti DD line is US.". - You must be trolling with this one. You think torps that go 35kts are great to hit DD's with? The German rockets are AP and overpen DD's. The best anti DD line is the British line because the level bombs usually work all the time regardless of how the DD moves. The Ark Royal does well. Now I know you're not talking about WoWs.

Negative. "That depends on your squad of choice and possible attack angles the island affords you. Regardless there can only be bad and worse positioning against a CV anyway." - You could be sitting in a Wooster or Austin and I can evict you from any island with aircraft. The taller it is, the more guaranteed you're dead, because the island prevents your AA from working. I just fly over, get exposed to 2 seconds of DPS, bomb you repeatedly, F-key out. Rinse, repeat until you move or die. Open water is safer.

Negative - " Depending on the situation it can be advantageous for the DD to leave its AA on believe it or not." - it is rarely advantageous for a DD to have it's AA on EVER. Only if it's inside smoke, in a blob, or had fighters dropped overhead. ALWAYS turn your AA off regardless of what DD you're in. Otherwise you'll tick the CV off and he'll get you killed. It won't be the aircraft killing you. It'll be the hail of artillery fire that follows the aircraft.

Correct " Camos can be used for more than just concealment." - They can be. However flags replace the camo if all you want is an XP boost. Concealment is pointless when camped behind an island or you have the concealment range of a Moskva. For general grinding in randoms, camo's are not always required on CV's. It doesn't matter if you get spotted at 12.5kms versus 12kms. You're dead either way if a ship gets within visual.

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1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

You might dodge some flak from one ship, but you'll get nailed by the other ships flak.

Flak does not spawn individually. All flak is concentrated into a single wall. "Flak from multiple directions" does not exist.
This is explained here:
https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/112949-new-aa-mechanics-explained/

Quote

If there are several ships firing, the rules are slightly different: up to 8 bursts can be placed in A zone combined and up to 10 bursts - in A zones. The most powerful burst are being chosen in this case.

280555438_3.thumb.png.9508781010a61efd6586dba17153db82.png

 

As for 2 attacks supposedly being impossible, here's a Haru being covered by a Petro, which has some of the best long range AA in the game, taking 2 full attacks from Midway DBs

Spoiler

1529944303_WorldofWarshipsScreenshot2022_03.28-00_10_10_45.thumb.png.6c19e4c89a122c8620509053f2a0a3c9.png
2087963363_WorldofWarshipsScreenshot2022_03.28-00_10_21_95.thumb.png.540f79eca33f62a09b241ff04eb9e104.png
1582790084_WorldofWarshipsScreenshot2022_03.28-00_10_34_13.thumb.png.ad5206f46e7e1e59ed7a7d659a204a57.png

The reason why 2 attacks are typically possible is due to the crutch last wing damage reduction mechanic which reduces AA damage by 30 to 50% depending on plane type for the attacking wing.

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

the delay is NOT "a mere 0.2 seconds" difference between T4 to T10. The delay is FAR longer.

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/game-updates/update-0105-the-grand-battle/#game-mechanics

Here is IJN for example:

image.thumb.png.f58dcb9fd646e31a5fa19f49c36405c3.png

As you can probably tell, the difference is in fact 0.2 seconds for standard rockets. It is only significantly longer for TT style rockets.

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Negative. "2 attacks is standard even against groups: ". Incorrect.

See above.

Or alternatively here is a Kiev taking 2 full attacks from Kaga DBs despite being covered by an Alaska and a Yamato.
https://youtu.be/fix7JN87fgA?t=49

Or here's a Smolensk taking 2 full attacks from Hakuryu rockets with sporadic support from a Preussen
https://youtu.be/vFLe_uOGEaU?t=54

Or here is two attacks vs a Gearing covered for the most part by a Worcester via Midway DBs
https://youtu.be/HqIlDysSqAU?t=70

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Negative. "Bombs and rockets are both fairly accurate across the board. It is not possible to miss a BB with perfect aim." - I've done it myself and literally have watched the bombs completely miss battleships with perfect aim. The rockets can destroyers and subs easily.

Most DB dispersion is smaller than your average BB. What you are describing is in fact literally impossible. Likewise all rocket dispersion will cover a BB almost completely.
Here for example is Midway DB accuracy against a DM courtesy of Ahskance, a target significantly smaller than your average BB.

image.png.6008478fa7d2a6e5bd756f3c62a431

While you can miss DDs and subs with perfect aim with rockets, that is a fairly rare occurrence courtesy of RNG (unless you're using rockets with horrible saturation). What DDs and subs have to do with your initial claim of missing BBs is however beyond me.

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Negative. "German TBs are perfectly usable against DDs and you can also still score decent hits with rockets. The best anti DD line is US.". - You must be trolling with this one. You think torps that go 35kts are great to hit DD's with? The German rockets are AP and overpen DD's. The best anti DD line is the British line because the level bombs usually work all the time regardless of how the DD moves. The Ark Royal does well. Now I know you're not talking about WoWs.

Tech tree german torpedoes typically possess speeds of 50kn or more. Here are AvP torps for example courtesy of wowsft.com:

image.png.db5d0f5b264348d9f04cc05e84664008.png

AP rockets can produce regular penetration damage on certain angles and as such deal quite reasonable amounts of damage.

Ark Royal has special settings on its level bombers which are not the same as the ones found on regular tech tree RN CVs. Tech tree LB performance vs DDs is typically anemic.
Here is how Ark Royal LBs look against its tech tree counterpart Furious:
https://youtu.be/ATLYA1teSwI?t=374
https://youtu.be/BaEeyEYNXU4?t=101

As you can hopefully tell, there is a significant difference in dispersion and saturation. This makes tech tree LBs unsuitable for killing DDs.

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

The taller it is, the more guaranteed you're dead, because the island prevents your AA from working. I just fly over, get exposed to 2 seconds of DPS, bomb you repeatedly, F-key out. Rinse, repeat until you move or die. Open water is safer.

Indeed, however an island can provide a certain amount of cover against rockets and torps if utilized correctly. There are ofc techniques to invalidate that and make the aforementioned squad types perform regardless, however most CV players will not know about them.
Regardless island cover is still generally preferable to open water simply because taking only CV attacks is better than taking CV attacks and enemy shelling.

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

it is rarely advantageous for a DD to have it's AA on EVER.

Literally "rarely advantageous" proves me right, you do realize that? I didn't say you should keep AA on the entire time.

Yes, in the majority of situations you want to keep your AA disabled unless your AA range is shorter than your detection range anyway. There are however, as you stated yourself, situations in which keeping your AA disabled is a misplay.

 

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

However flags replace the camo if all you want is an XP boost.

Camo bonuses stack with flag bonuses, as such this is kinda a moot point. If you want economic bonuses to begin with, you typically want to stack as many as possible.

Edited by El2aZeR

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5 hours ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

- Using camo's on CV's is kinda stupid. Go naked, and build up your camo collection to be used for ranked and clan battles. A few hundred meters reduced detection doesn't help you.

You know, I can get my Hosho's detection down to 7.3 km with camo. And seriously, you don't know about the economic bonuses?

51 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

- You must be trolling with this one. You think torps that go 35kts are great to hit DD's with?

No, which is why I use the 40+ knot ones found on Ryujo & Weser.

56 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

You could be sitting in a Wooster or Austin and I can evict you from any island with aircraft.

Yeah the last time I tried that my entire squadron got wiped out in massive line of black clouds.

1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

ALWAYS turn your AA off regardless of what DD you're in.

NOT having the AA turned off has saved my destroyer several times while playing PvP. And in PvE you should only have your AA off when planes are not targeting you, because if they are the CV knows your location regardless of what you're doing.

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1 hour ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

So much wrong in one comment. Where to start?

Think it would help if you shared a replay of your experiences, we may be able to help and decipher where you're having challenges. 

El2azer is high level player and since his experience is much different than yours, there's def something he's doing differently than you. 

When u said it's possible to miss a BB with perfect aim that told me you are not doing perfect aim.

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Well, the United States and Eagle are advanced CVs  for skilled CV players so yeah can be very punishing if you screw up :Smile_hiding: So If were you I pick a CV tech tree branch preferably the U.S play it learn how to play learn the basics from tier four and up :fish_book: You also have a Kaga played it in COOP a lot to get familiar with CVs also :fish_cute_2: You might as well keep playing the two Superships CVs until the rental time runs out :fish_haloween: You can learn a lot from tier four and six CVs as you move up the tech tree :Smile_Default:

 

My favorite Supership CV is the Eagle it's fabulous :Smile_trollface: Because the United States has rockets and they suck and have no torps :fish_palm:

Edited by LastRemnant
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Perhaps it's been said already but one very important tip:

Don't trust auto-pilot! Drive you ship yourself as much as possible. Keep your eyes on the mini-map.

Edited by MN1234

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17 hours ago, MN1234 said:

Perhaps it's been said already but one very important tip:

Don't trust auto-pilot! Drive you ship yourself as much as possible. Keep your eyes on the mini-map.

I frequently reprimand the "auto-pilot" for being "drunk-while-on-duty" and for "cowardice in the proximity of islands".

Learning to efficiently sail a CV does involve learning how to command the autopilot, though.  :cap_old:
So, I encourage people to spend some time discovering how the autopilot works and how it actually behaves in response to where "waypoints" are set on the map.
 

Quote

AutopilotEdit

All ships have access to the Autopilot. Aircraft carriers have access only to the Autopilot to change location. From the battle screen:

  • M opens / closes tactical map (<esc> etc. also close it).
  • Left-Click on a spot on the tactical map enables autopilot and sets the first waypoint.
  • Shift + left-click on the map: adds a waypoint. There can be up to 5 waypoints.
  • A waypoint can be dragged by the mouse cursor (hold LMB) to adjust the route.
  • Use of the QWASDE keys on the battle map disables the autopilot

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Maneuvering

In my experience, one can manually use WASDQE keys to maneuver the CV when *not* flying the planes.
While flying the planes, maneuvering the CV's hull requires use of the autopilot interface.
Which is why I feel that one of the sentences in the above quote is a bit awkward, @iDuckman.  (Specifically:  " Aircraft carriers have access only to the Autopilot to change location.")

Edited to add:  While manually maneuvering the CV with WASDQE keys, one can also use the "O" key to temporarily boost AA performance on a chosen side of the CV.
                           And, one can manually select a priority target for the secondary battery guns, too.  ( "CNTL" + "LEFT-MOUSE-BUTTON" on the desired red-team ship.)

So, if one is on the ball while under attack from multiple threats (for example, a DD on the portside and a red-team CV squadron on the starboard side) then one could set the desired hull conditions in-between the recalling of one squadron and the launching of another squadron.

Edited by Wolfswetpaws
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23 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Welcome to CV Life.  :-)

The Tier-4 CV's let one practice the basics and learn how to aim at targets.  
The Tier-6 CV's add fighter-drops to your capabilities.  These are useful when placed properly for spotting and sometimes for shooting down red-team planes.  Stronger AA is introduced here, as well.
Tier-8 = even more and stronger AA.  Planes fly faster.  Players are more aware of CV's and how to dodge or minimize the effects of your ordnance (most of the time).
 Tier-10 = Strongest AA 'bubbles' discourage loitering near most red-team ships.  Most players are making concsious decisions about whether to dodge a CV's strike or to give broadside to your team-mates.

I like my CV Captains to have at least 9 skill points and prefer 13 skill points.  9 points will let one get the minimum skills to reduce flak damage.  13 is better.
I don't consider my CV Captains to be "fully trained" until 17 skill points.  Eventually (someday?) I'll train one of mine up to 21 skill points.  Currently my highest are at 18 skill points.

In Tier-6 is where I started to learn about "pre-dropping" ordnance on an empty patch of ocean or onto an island while enroute to legitimate targets.
The concept is to reduce the number of planes that will be exposed to AA during an approach to and an attack on a target.
This allows your CV's hull to re-arm and service those planes so they'll be ready for the next sortie instead of shot down or still in the air making their way back to the landing deck.
Normally a player only makes one "pre-drop" per sortie and then uses the remainder of the squadron to continue onwards for an attack or some scouting or whatever.

While I respect @ElectroVeeDub's perspectives and experiences, being able to "dodge" AA/Flak bursts is something that @El2aZeR has said is possible.
I've tried it and do notice a difference.  By zig-zagging enough, or by flying in a curving approach to a target, I've been able to dodge some portion of flak bursts.
I'm not yet able to dodge 100% of flak, yet. 
And sometimes I mis-time my maneuvers and eat double the amount, it seems. 
But, most of the time, I'm able to use aerial WASD hacks to reduce the amount of Flak that my planes experience.
So, I consider it a vital part of my CV playing repertoire.

The Ryujo uses HE rockets, AP bombs and torpedoes with strong warheads.  She's a good choice for attacking BB's.
When attacking smaller and nimble targets with thin armor, her ordnance is less-than-ideal.  It takes a lot of practice and luck to hit a DD with two torpedoes in one drop.
The rockets have approximately a 5 second delay in their firing sequence.  That's a lot of time for a DD to maneuver.
The AP bombs can deliver some satisfying citadel hits, though.  

The Furious uses a pattern of small HE bombs, a pair of converging torpedoes and HE rockets.
Her bombers are great for attacking DD's and Cruisers and don't mind starting fires on other ships, too.  But citadels are pretty-much out of the question.
The torpedoes are slow (35 knots in 'stock' configuration) and have average sized warheads.  Decent, but not spectacular.
The rockets have a similar delay (approximately 5 seconds).
The Furious is better at bombing small & maneuverable targets than the Ryujo is.  But with her ordnance, she relies on damage done over multiple sorties and along with fires & floods.

The US CV's have HVAR rockets and some have 'Tiny Tim' rockets.  The HVAR's have a 5 second delay and the Tiny Tims have a 6 second delay.
The US CV's tend to have wider bomb-drop patterns and use fewer HE bombs per drop than the British CV's.
The US CV's use 35 knot torpedoes with average-sized warheads.
The strong suit of most USN CV's is their ability to be "average" or "meh", but consistent.  
They struggle against small & nimble targets, in my opinion.

The Russian CV's attack with an entire squadron of planes all at once (instead of splitting off two or three planes per attack).
Their torpedoes have a long arming-distance.  This is a serious consideration when aiming.  But, if you can hit with most or all of the torps in a drop, it makes for a strong attack.
Some have rockets.  Some have skip-bombs.  Some have "normal" HE bombs.
Russian planes have below-average HP, so they can't loiter in a flak area.  They can scout if they stay outside of flak bubbles.  But mostly they're intended for offense instead of defense.
Skip-bombs are a nice alternative to using torpedoes to attack ships hiding inside smoke-screens.  Aim carefully, though, because ships will try to comb your bombs just like they dodge torpedoes.

German CV's have rocket planes with the shortest firing delay.  It's approximately 2 seconds.  The attack approach takes some getting used to, though.
German CV's have some of the best secondary-battery gun suites among CV's.  It's meme-level fun if you have enough Captain's skill points to develop it.  :-)
Other than that, most use AP bombs, AP rockets and a variety of torpedoes with below-average sized warheads.
A few (one?) have a skip-bomb squadron.
Planes are fast, but have low amounts of HP.
Learn to use torpedoes on a DD, because hitting with other ordnance is likely to yield small amounts of damage.  German CV's have an emphasis on attacking larger & well-armored ships.

When using rocket planes, don't fly over an island.
Seriously, flying over any amount of land screws-up the rocket-plane's approach.  (Try it, and you'll see.)
Always make your rocket-plane attack approaches while over water, please.


If you have the time, I encourage you to visit @Ahskance's youtube channel and watch his "How to CV" videos.  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHiU4YKBk-QoOOAa9AGywbw/featured

I'll enclose some of my crude illustrations that I've created over the years, intended to highlight some of my information.

Good luck and have fun.  :-)

 

  Reveal hidden contents



1966544482_Bombrunillustrationofflightpathinacartoonishmanner_07-20-2020_forEstimated_Prophetonforums_.thumb.jpg.05848452993acced9a8ee5d5effd9080.jpg

.2086914849_TorpedoattackrunforBattleshipIseandhertorpedoplanescrudelyillustrated_01-06-2022_.thumb.jpg.80686e402f4275668bc4c76f6c683a57.jpg

1508810575_Torpedorunwhereinshipstaysoncourseandreceivesmultiplestrikes_07-22-2020_.thumb.jpg.28925421d74ac06d99805becd4b91129.jpg

The above illustration depicts a torpedo squadron making multiple attacks on a ship that is sailing in a straight line.
Normally this is only feasible at Tier-4 or when red-team ships have little AA to speak of.
By Tier-6 most people have stronger AA to discourage this option.

 

If you have additional questions, feel free to ask.

Thanks for the info wolf, great advice. Also, the point about trying to strike over land. Yeah, the only thing i probably done is scare some sea gulls on the banks. ;) 

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2 minutes ago, Richard_Hansen1 said:

Thanks for the info wolf, great advice. Also, the point about trying to strike over land. Yeah, the only thing i probably done is scare some sea gulls on the banks. ;) 

Thanks for saying so.  It is heart-warming.  1394237148_Thanks_WorldofWarships_trophy-icon_03-23-2022_.jpg.ce05c888243312dae72b6ac853a1460a.jpg

I hope everyone continues to share information and experiences for the good of all.

Also thankfully, normal Bomber planes don't have trouble with islands.  The islands can be used to block AA/Flak while making an approach to attack a red-team ship.

Torpedo planes can do so, too, with the caveat that the torpedoes have a minimum arming-distance. 
So one has to ensure (hope?) there's enough water between an island and one's target, or the torpedo attack results may be disappointing.

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On 4/2/2022 at 6:20 AM, ElectroVeeDub said:

Playing a CV in PvP is not super-hard once you learn a few basics:

 

-The AA is broken AF. Especially at T8 - T10. Flak basically cannot be avoided at high levels.

- The rockets are ... yeah. Not good at T8 - T10. You have to lead targets at a ridiculous amount. T4 - T6 is not bad though.

- You will rarely ever get off more than one strike. Unless attacking an Agincourt or you're at low tier.

- People are [edited]. They'll report you for merely playing a CV.

- Bombs and rockets are about as accurate as coating a fan with liquified excrement then turning it on. You can miss a Yamato with perfect aim.

- SS's are somewhat immune to CV's at the moment due to spotting and accuracy issues. The lack of a depth charge squadron, and inability to damage-con on command.

- The German CV's are basically useless against DD's. Except with secondaries. The UK CV's are probably best for popping DD's.

-The AA stacks when ships blob-up to ridiculous levels.

- Ships dumb enough to hump tall islands are excellent targets.

- DD's with their AA on are "speshul" education candidates. Even if they "think" they're in an AA DD. They basically announce, "hey, kill me" across the map. Oblige the dummies. Get em' killed.

- If a ship gets within 12kms of you, you're dead. Usually. There are exceptions but...

- Using camo's on CV's is kinda stupid. Go naked, and build up your camo collection to be used for ranked and clan battles. A few hundred meters reduced detection doesn't help you.

People say that you can dodge AA at tier 10 but it’s very unreliable, and tons of ships have a large anti air firing range.

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1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

So one has to ensure (hope?) there's enough water between an island and one's target, or the torpedo attack results may be disappointing.

As a general rule of thumb if you can see water between the island and the ship symbol on the minimap, there typically is enough distance to arm for torps with standard arming distance.

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Taking a CV into battle?  My advice?….  Push Alt-F4.  Insta win!   :Smile_trollface:
 

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4 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

In my experience, one can manually use WASDQE keys to maneuver the CV when *not* flying the planes.
While flying the planes, maneuvering the CV's hull requires use of the autopilot interface.

Are you sure about that?  Allow me to query my minions.

<hhmph>  Apparently so.  Never tried it.  I'll make a few changes.  I forgot that article even existed.


How about this (not my best, but I think it works).

Lose the awkward sentence.

Add a new subsection:

=== Maneuvering Aircraft Carriers ===

Aircraft carriers may be manually steered (with QWASDE), but ''only'' when not controlling aircraft.  Manually set throttle and rudder remain set while operating aircraft without the ability to change them until the squadron lands.  Thus the Autopilot is most commonly used to change location. 

Edited by iDuckman

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2 hours ago, iDuckman said:

Are you sure about that?  Allow me to query my minions.

<hhmph>  Apparently so.  Never tried it.  I'll make a few changes.  I forgot that article even existed.


How about this (not my best, but I think it works).

Lose the awkward sentence.

Add a new subsection:

=== Maneuvering Aircraft Carriers ===

Aircraft carriers may be manually steered (with QWASDE), but ''only'' when not controlling aircraft.  Manually set throttle and rudder remain set while operating aircraft without the ability to change them until the squadron lands.  Thus the Autopilot is most commonly used to change location. 

Thank you, @iDuckman.
I think we can "roll with that" until or unless something better comes along, eh?  :-)

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