Add USS Nimitz and Final Countdown question

[WM1957]

Since super carriers and jet aircraft have been introduced into the game, would it be a good idea to add USS Nimitz to the game perhaps with a scenario Operation based on the final countdown movie?

The final countdown movie question that I have is this. Since the officers of the USS Nimitz know where in win the Japanese task force will be on December 7 before the attack on Pearl Harbor at around sunrise, and since the Japanese task force relied on not being detected by the United States Navy on the approach, would the option of sending a dozen F-14 tomcat to make a fast overpass of the Japanese task force before they launched their aircraft for the attack? Since the F-14 tomcat‘s were so fast the Japanese antiaircraft artillery would not be able to track them. A dozen F-14 tomcat over flying the Japanese task force would let them know that their secret was gone. I would think then that Adam and then admiral Nahum would turn his fleet around and send it back to Japan.

Any comments?

[Jakob_Knight]

Under the conditions of the movie, understand that the speed of the F14s might also make identifying their nationality a problem.  Trying to make out a national emblem at that speed isn't easy, especially when you have no information on what aircraft you are observing, or even what -kind- of aircraft.  Even if the Japanese task force did identify the planes as American, they might decide they had no chance of escape and continue with their orders.  The Nimitz would also be in the similar situation it faced in the movie where their own transmissions were not believed because the US Navy didn't believe they were an American warship, and so any warnings might be discarded as pranks.

 

And, despite the difference in tech, a sufficient amount of AA firepower existed in the task force to make it possible to down jet fighters that entered their range.  Tracking or not, a flak burst is still a deadly event that can cripple or destroy even a modern warplane.  The Nimitz would have been forced to use stand-off weapons or risk losing aircraft and pilots to Japanese AAA.  Also, it's possible Japanese scouts could have run across the Nimitz and for the supercarrier to then come under attack by the combined airpower of the task force.  Even Nimitz would have a difficult time stopping that many planes before they could get hits in, considering it is without escorts.  And that doesn't even take into account the submarine threat.

 

And of course, the central point of the movie was that, no matter what the Nimitz did, it could not change the events that happened that day, as those events were part of the reason the Nimitz came into being.  The past was set, and the Nimitz had been part of the history all along.

 

 

 

 

 

[Raven114]

God No!

[WM1957]

55 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

Under the conditions of the movie, understand that the speed of the F14s might also make identifying their nationality a problem.  Trying to make out a national emblem at that speed isn't easy, especially when you have no information on what aircraft you are observing, or even what -kind- of aircraft.  Even if the Japanese task force did identify the planes as American, they might decide they had no chance of escape and continue with their orders.  The Nimitz would also be in the similar situation it faced in the movie where their own transmissions were not believed because the US Navy didn't believe they were an American warship, and so any warnings might be discarded as pranks.

 

And, despite the difference in tech, a sufficient amount of AA firepower existed in the task force to make it possible to down jet fighters that entered their range.  Tracking or not, a flak burst is still a deadly event that can cripple or destroy even a modern warplane.  The Nimitz would have been forced to use stand-off weapons or risk losing aircraft and pilots to Japanese AAA.  Also, it's possible Japanese scouts could have run across the Nimitz and for the supercarrier to then come under attack by the combined airpower of the task force.  Even Nimitz would have a difficult time stopping that many planes before they could get hits in, considering it is without escorts.  And that doesn't even take into account the submarine threat.

 

And of course, the central point of the movie was that, no matter what the Nimitz did, it could not change the events that happened that day, as those events were part of the reason the Nimitz came into being.  The past was set, and the Nimitz had been part of the history all along.

 

 

 

 

 

But with the radar the USS Nimitz possessed, and scouts would be identified long before they came within visual range.

F14 Tomcats overflying the Japanese task force in the morning could be enough to convince the commanders that they have been discovered and the secrecy lost. The Japanese in December 1941 we not so gung-ho suicide as in later in the war.

Also, would not the loss of 2 Zero’s on patrol be noticed by the commanders in the task force and give them the idea that their presence may have been compromised?

[AVR_Project]

1 hour ago, WM1957 said:

Since super carriers and jet aircraft have been introduced into the game, would it be a good idea to add USS Nimitz to the game perhaps with a scenario Operation based on the final countdown movie?

The final countdown movie question that I have is this. Since the officers of the USS Nimitz know where in win the Japanese task force will be on December 7 before the attack on Pearl Harbor at around sunrise, and since the Japanese task force relied on not being detected by the United States Navy on the approach, would the option of sending a dozen F-14 tomcat to make a fast overpass of the Japanese task force before they launched their aircraft for the attack? Since the F-14 tomcat‘s were so fast the Japanese antiaircraft artillery would not be able to track them. A dozen F-14 tomcat over flying the Japanese task force would let them know that their secret was gone. I would think then that Adam and then admiral Nahum would turn his fleet around and send it back to Japan.

Any comments?

In the movie, the Pearl Harbor response was a real caricature.  It was convenient for the plot.
Simply land anything at Hickam, tell everyone there is a fleet of Japanese carriers up North.
The Army will send several flights of scouts to spot it, early in the morning....  History is avoided.

Stick an E2C on top and direct the US planes in.
Of course, since we aren't at war, this throws off their plans.

But since Japan is coordinating this attack with many others (i.e. Philippines / Wake / Guam), it won't be long until the shooting will start.
The battle will turn away from the IJN attacking Pearl Harbor, to the Kudo Batai simply trying to survive for the next couple days escaping into non-hostile area.

With the Nimitz keeping them lit up, and with some tactical hits to slow them down, even the slow US battleships will catch up and pound them into a oil-slick.
Make no mistake, the US military was egging for a war anyway.

[Jakob_Knight]

47 minutes ago, WM1957 said:

But with the radar the USS Nimitz possessed, and scouts would be identified long before they came within visual range.

F14 Tomcats overflying the Japanese task force in the morning could be enough to convince the commanders that they have been discovered and the secrecy lost. The Japanese in December 1941 we not so gung-ho suicide as in later in the war.

Also, would not the loss of 2 Zero’s on patrol be noticed by the commanders in the task force and give them the idea that their presence may have been compromised?

 

Depends on where the Scouts were flying, and if they were identified as hostiles in time.  Remember, there is no such thing as IFF back then, and unlike the two planes encountered in the movie, scout planes had radio.

 

As for the task force turning aside, no they weren't suicidal, but they were very dedicated to their duty.  If they had been discovered but believed they could not reach safety by turning around, then continuing with the mission would have been seen as the only viable option.  Ironically, the super speed of the F14s would have worked against the idea that they could escape by aborting the mission.

 

The loss of 2 Zeros that had been sent out to eliminate any straggling shipping or enemy fighters in the invasion path would not have been noticed until much, much later, and might have been put down to the pilots having gotten lost or simple mischance.  If anything, it would have made the Japanese accelerate their plans in hope of beating any word back to Pearl.

 

But, as I said, one of the cornerstones of the movie was that the past was unalterable.  No matter what you do, you will not be able to change the past, because any action you take had already resulted in the attack happening.

 

 

[wolfkind252]

We have supercarriers and Jets now? I need a sub that will stay under the entire length of teh battle and a google map showing me where they are along with 5 megaton nuclear tipped  torpedo's :)

[Lord_Slayer]

1 hour ago, WM1957 said:

Also, would not the loss of 2 Zero’s on patrol be noticed by the commanders in the task force and give them the idea that their presence may have been compromised?

that is actually one of the plot holes with the movie.

the Japanese did not send out any scout aircraft from the attack fleet, from either CV or Cruiser/BB.

Any such aircraft might reveal the presence of the Japanese fleet that far out from Japan. There was also the possibility that a plane might become lost and require a beacon to return to the CV, which would also be cause for the fleet to be spotted, or at minimum for an investigation of the signal.

 

As for an Operation: while it might seem to be a fun idea, I'd say in this game no.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Final Countdown (1980) was F-14 Tomcat pron long before Top Gun (1986) was ever a thing.

 

VF-84 Tomcats with the Jolly Rogers!

Old school strike.

 

[MN1234]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:55 AM, Jakob_Knight said:

Under the conditions of the movie, understand that the speed of the F14s might also make identifying their nationality a problem.  Trying to make out a national emblem at that speed isn't easy, especially when you have no information on what aircraft you are observing, or even what -kind- of aircraft.  Even if the Japanese task force did identify the planes as American, they might decide they had no chance of escape and continue with their orders.  The Nimitz would also be in the similar situation it faced in the movie where their own transmissions were not believed because the US Navy didn't believe they were an American warship, and so any warnings might be discarded as pranks.

 

And, despite the difference in tech, a sufficient amount of AA firepower existed in the task force to make it possible to down jet fighters that entered their range.  Tracking or not, a flak burst is still a deadly event that can cripple or destroy even a modern warplane.  The Nimitz would have been forced to use stand-off weapons or risk losing aircraft and pilots to Japanese AAA.  Also, it's possible Japanese scouts could have run across the Nimitz and for the supercarrier to then come under attack by the combined airpower of the task force.  Even Nimitz would have a difficult time stopping that many planes before they could get hits in, considering it is without escorts.  And that doesn't even take into account the submarine threat.

 

And of course, the central point of the movie was that, no matter what the Nimitz did, it could not change the events that happened that day, as those events were part of the reason the Nimitz came into being.  The past was set, and the Nimitz had been part of the history all along.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, don't underestimate WWII era ships and planes. The Vought F4U Corsair flew its' last combat mission in 1969. It was first built in 1940.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Vought_F4U_Corsair

[HazeGrayUnderway]

On 3/12/2022 at 8:55 AM, Jakob_Knight said:

Under the conditions of the movie, understand that the speed of the F14s might also make identifying their nationality a problem.  Trying to make out a national emblem at that speed isn't easy, especially when you have no information on what aircraft you are observing, or even what -kind- of aircraft.  Even if the Japanese task force did identify the planes as American, they might decide they had no chance of escape and continue with their orders.  The Nimitz would also be in the similar situation it faced in the movie where their own transmissions were not believed because the US Navy didn't believe they were an American warship, and so any warnings might be discarded as pranks.

 

And, despite the difference in tech, a sufficient amount of AA firepower existed in the task force to make it possible to down jet fighters that entered their range.  Tracking or not, a flak burst is still a deadly event that can cripple or destroy even a modern warplane.  The Nimitz would have been forced to use stand-off weapons or risk losing aircraft and pilots to Japanese AAA.  Also, it's possible Japanese scouts could have run across the Nimitz and for the supercarrier to then come under attack by the combined airpower of the task force.  Even Nimitz would have a difficult time stopping that many planes before they could get hits in, considering it is without escorts.  And that doesn't even take into account the submarine threat.

 

And of course, the central point of the movie was that, no matter what the Nimitz did, it could not change the events that happened that day, as those events were part of the reason the Nimitz came into being.  The past was set, and the Nimitz had been part of the history all along.

 

 

 

 

 

A WWII naval battle group would get massacred by late 1970s / early 1980s Cold War technology and weapons.  Most especially a then-modern US Carrier Strike Group.

 

Your talk about ID'ing would have made no difference.  Nimitz already launched a strike group.  These guys weren't up in the air to fly a fighter cap.

 

Historically when Yamato and her escorts sortied for Operation Ten-Go in April 1945, the US Navy aviators realized that Yamato, pride and joy of the Imperial Japanese Navy, a ship that Japan poured precious amount of steel that it could ill afford to waste, had no radar guided anti-aircraft weapons.  They realized this by how badly the AA fire was off.

If the IJN failed to do that April 1945, they sure as hell did not have that capability in December 7, 1941.

 

The Kido Butai had no air search radar.

No radar guided AA gunfire.

The IJN had some of the worst AA weapons of WWII, only the Italians were on a almost-as-bad level.

The Kido Butai got surprised by slow flying SBD Dauntless Dive Bombers, they did not see the carrier launched SBDs until they were already starting their dives.

 

They would get massacred by a Cold War-era CV Strike Group.  Their Zero fighter caps would be of no use.  Their AA would be useless.

 

Historically even in 1945 the USN, who went hard into AA guns for warships, already figured their 40mm Bofors was no longer enough to handle late war aircraft, hence the VT-fused shells + 76mm guns being developed.  And the IJN using trash 127mm guns with poor ROF, poor handling, poor traversing, coupled with even worse 25mm guns, they would get massacred by a Cold War-era CV Strike Group.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Also, the movie did have a fun scene where a politician they picked up from the water in that era demanded to have communications with the US gov't / military.  The Nimitz's captain actually granted that permission because he already knew he wouldn't be believed.

 

[LastRemnant]

On 3/12/2022 at 12:41 PM, Raven114 said:

 God yes !

 

There I fix that for you Because 

 

 

On 3/12/2022 at 4:44 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Final Countdown (1980) was F-14 Tomcat pron long before Top Gun (1986) was ever a thing.

 

VF-84 Tomcats with the Jolly Rogers!

Old school strike.

 

 

Come one wargaming you know want too 

I want to fly in f-14 at 1341 knots or 1,544 mph it's not broken at all  So what if can reach one end of the map and back in less than 15 seconds it's totally balans  Don't forget the air to ship missiles to make quick work those pesky DDs 

[kgh52]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:38 AM, WM1957 said:

Since super carriers and jet aircraft have been introduced into the game, would it be a good idea to add USS Nimitz to the game perhaps with a scenario Operation based on the final countdown movie?

The final countdown movie question that I have is this. Since the officers of the USS Nimitz know where in win the Japanese task force will be on December 7 before the attack on Pearl Harbor at around sunrise, and since the Japanese task force relied on not being detected by the United States Navy on the approach, would the option of sending a dozen F-14 tomcat to make a fast overpass of the Japanese task force before they launched their aircraft for the attack? Since the F-14 tomcat‘s were so fast the Japanese antiaircraft artillery would not be able to track them. A dozen F-14 tomcat over flying the Japanese task force would let them know that their secret was gone. I would think then that Adam and then admiral Nahum would turn his fleet around and send it back to Japan.

Any comments?

There was a lot of "fantasy" in this movie besides time travel.

The US Navy was onboard because the F-14 was its new baby. Funding the F-14 program was in question.

As far as a fly over a flight of E-6s would do the job. Its 600+ mph top speed was too fast for the AA of the day. No one ever seen nor train for planes that fast. Of course a couple of F-14 following, breaking the sound barrier just above the IJN CVs would of shock the Japanese.

While I can live with most of the fantasy, the fact the Japanese pilot wasn't locked in a cell it is foolishness. Plus the pilot knowing how to operate an M-16 is far from the truth.

Most likely there would be an admiral in overall command of the CV task force. With all intel pointing to the fact they traveled back in time & there was a hostile enemy steaming towards Hawaii the most logical move would be to place the Nimitz in the path of the attack force and buzz the Japanese fleet.

If the attack continued the small number of F14s, along with the AA systems could have made it near impossible for the Japanese to get close enough to hit the Nimitz. F-14s would break up any formations and shoot down many planes, The AA missiles 1st  then they would face 4 Phalanx mounts, not much of a change to score a single hit. 300mph faster than a Zero, train to bomb from speeds the Zero could never reach, using tactics only modern communications enable and smart weapons would have made it like shooting fish in a barrel for the E-6s.

Had VT fusing been available on December 7th, 1941, the Japanese would have lost a lot of planes. Only 25% of the naval AA had VT fusing in 1943. Yet VT fusing is credited with downing 75% of the Japanese planes shot down by naval AA.

 

No, I don't think it should be any part of the game. CVs fanboys would be screaming for the modern weapons the Nimitz has for their in game CVs. The CVs vs no CVs would reach new & epic toxicity levels. NO THANK YOU!

[Jakob_Knight]

12 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

A WWII naval battle group would get massacred by late 1970s / early 1980s Cold War technology and weapons.  Most especially a then-modern US Carrier Strike Group.

 

Your talk about ID'ing would have made no difference.  Nimitz already launched a strike group.  These guys weren't up in the air to fly a fighter cap.

 

Historically when Yamato and her escorts sortied for Operation Ten-Go in April 1945, the US Navy aviators realized that Yamato, pride and joy of the Imperial Japanese Navy, a ship that Japan poured precious amount of steel that it could ill afford to waste, had no radar guided anti-aircraft weapons.  They realized this by how badly the AA fire was off.

If the IJN failed to do that April 1945, they sure as hell did not have that capability in December 7, 1941.

 

The Kido Butai had no air search radar.

No radar guided AA gunfire.

The IJN had some of the worst AA weapons of WWII, only the Italians were on a almost-as-bad level.

The Kido Butai got surprised by slow flying SBD Dauntless Dive Bombers, they did not see the carrier launched SBDs until they were already starting their dives.

 

They would get massacred by a Cold War-era CV Strike Group.  Their Zero fighter caps would be of no use.  Their AA would be useless.

 

Historically even in 1945 the USN, who went hard into AA guns for warships, already figured their 40mm Bofors was no longer enough to handle late war aircraft, hence the VT-fused shells + 76mm guns being developed.  And the IJN using trash 127mm guns with poor ROF, poor handling, poor traversing, coupled with even worse 25mm guns, they would get massacred by a Cold War-era CV Strike Group.

 

Not saying they wouldn't get massacred.  That's obvious.  But the USN planes would likely take losses unless they used standoff weapons (which they would).  The comment about AAA damage to the strike force was in reply to the comment that the IJN guns couldn't track the modern aircraft, which would not mean they couldn't do damage if the strike force (for some reason) decided to attack at strafing range.  And yeah, IDing aircraft was very important as, before the F14s encountered the Zeroes, the Nimitz didn't know what was going on and would have been reluctant to fire on what might be civilian aircraft, giving more time for the scout to get close enough to make a report before it died.  Of course, nothing goes as it should in war, so any number of outcomes are possible through just plain bad luck. Especially when you are flying your strike force in very close parade formation to the target.

 

But the biggest enemy the Nimitz would face is the one they could not beat.  No matter what they did, they would fail.  Because time was against them and could not be beaten.  The final countdown ruled everything, even a supercarrier.

 

It's fun to watch though.  A more realistic approach to the situation was in the Axis of Time trilogy of books by John Birmingham, where a post-modern (near-future with emergent technology) multinational task force blunders into the middle of the USN Midway task force at night.  Unlike the movie, it's a one-way trip, and the displaced sailors and officers have to deal with the changes they cause to the world.

 

 

[Wolfswetpaws]

Could an US supercarrier defeat the whole Japanese WWII navy?

https://youtu.be/474RR1ETgyk

 

 

 

[GrimmeReaper]

If your going Nuclear it needs to be CVN-65!!!!  With her F-4 Phantom IIs!