Forest Sherman DD loses about 30 rounds a minute

[xHeavy]

A poster calculated on Reddit Wows that the Forest Sherman "loses" about 30 rounds per minute per gun because the rounds themselves never spawned by the Server.

Thats PER GUN by the Author who built the calculations. So if you were firing 5 guns, you do not see a significant amount of damage per minute because all those rounds never fired waiting on the next tick. So you are also throwing away Damage as well.

The tickrate is probably too slow at 7 per second in Wows now with these newer guns. They are going to need to crank that up to 30 per second or something. Otherwise what good is a fast reloading ship if you never see firepower go out to the enemy in the game?

Source link with calculations

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/t6flpz/tickrate_and_firerates_calculations_overview/

 

 

[thundercat_warrior]

I believe there was information from the devs which stated that there was a fix for the tickrate issue and it will be installed in the next patch. But yes, the tickrate issue does effect the f sherman as well as other high dpm ships. I just can't remember where I saw the info lol.

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

2 hours ago, xHeavy said:

A poster calculated on Reddit Wows that the Forest Sherman "loses" about 30 rounds per minute per gun

That would cut the rate of fire to 10 rounds per minute. I question the veracity of such a claim.

[Ahskance]

2 hours ago, xHeavy said:

A poster calculated on Reddit Wows that the Forest Sherman "loses" about 30 rounds per minute per gun because the rounds themselves never spawned by the Server.

Thats PER GUN by the Author who built the calculations. So if you were firing 5 guns, you do not see a significant amount of damage per minute because all those rounds never fired waiting on the next tick. So you are also throwing away Damage as well.

The tickrate is probably too slow at 7 per second in Wows now with these newer guns. They are going to need to crank that up to 30 per second or something. Otherwise what good is a fast reloading ship if you never see firepower go out to the enemy in the game?

Source link with calculations

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/t6flpz/tickrate_and_firerates_calculations_overview/

So the update we gave on the tick-rate talked about two things.  Firstly that the issue at the time was that there was a 2/7ths second delay.  The following update reduced that setting to only a 1/7th second delay to limit the impact of the issue.

The longer form change is to allow our code to see "when" a shot was queued so that it could harness firing data that exists between ticks.  This would make the firing rate as correct as is possible because the timings would all be recorded regardless of tick-rate.  This second concept requires code-work and is not a simple fix.  The expected time is likely in months for the more complete correct.

[Sinsie]

The tick rate concern is likely much less of an issue than people think.  They will fix the issue then nerf all the fast fire ships that would get buffed by the change to where they are now if they are currently considered balanced.

The only current question is do you take a skill or not with the current state.

 

[Boggzy]

3 hours ago, xHeavy said:

A poster calculated on Reddit Wows that the Forest Sherman "loses" about 30 rounds per minute per gun because the rounds themselves never spawned by the Server.

Thats PER GUN by the Author who built the calculations. 

It's 30rpm TOTAL, not per gun.  He states in that same sentence that worst case scenario is 210rpm after a loss of 30rpm for all three guns.

 

[Crokodone]

49 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

So the update we gave on the tick-rate talked about two things.  Firstly that the issue at the time was that there was a 2/7ths second delay.  The following update reduced that setting to only a 1/7th second delay to limit the impact of the issue.

The longer form change is to allow our code to see "when" a shot was queued so that it could harness firing data that exists between ticks.  This would make the firing rate as correct as is possible because the timings would all be recorded regardless of tick-rate.  This second concept requires code-work and is not a simple fix.  The expected time is likely in months for the more complete correct.

Hey Look! Another reason to give Forest Sherman Radar: .

Meanwhile I'm curious, if she's not actually firing every 1.5s, then how fast is she actually firing?

[Newtzilla_]

Ship Builder has the server side DPM built in now

https://github.com/WoWs-Builder-Team/WoWs-ShipBuilder/releases

Stock Sherman fires at 1.57s

MBM3 is 1.43s

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

4 hours ago, Boggzy said:

It's 30rpm TOTAL, not per gun.

That sounds FAR more reasonable.

[Litigo_1970]

7 hours ago, Ahskance said:

So the update we gave on the tick-rate talked about two things.  Firstly that the issue at the time was that there was a 2/7ths second delay.  The following update reduced that setting to only a 1/7th second delay to limit the impact of the issue.

The longer form change is to allow our code to see "when" a shot was queued so that it could harness firing data that exists between ticks.  This would make the firing rate as correct as is possible because the timings would all be recorded regardless of tick-rate.  This second concept requires code-work and is not a simple fix.  The expected time is likely in months for the more complete correct

So if I read that correctly, Wargaming is saying:

"We know there is a problem, we have been aware of it since the beginning"

"Now that players are paying attention to the problem, we will make a few minor changes to "limit the impact of the issue""

"However, actually fixing the issue would require spending money on new servers and faster Internet connections, and that is not something that we calculate would maximize our profits."

"Therefore, we will continue to sell ships that we know do not perform as advertised, because that IS something that we calculate will maximize out profits."

"However, as a demonstration that we have the best interests of the Playerbase at heart, we will sell you the NEW Forrest Sherman, a rapid firing Destroyer, with SAP!, and homing torpedoes, useless torpedos that cannot be aimed, for the low, low price of $139 US Dollars!"

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

6 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

So if I read that correctly,

You didn't.

What they are saying - as I understand it - is that they inadvertently pushed the rate of fire so high that for the first time the server-tick issue is seriously and consistently manifested, rather than just as an edge case when Adrenaline Rush is fully kicked in, and a permanent fix is going to take a while to ensure they don't break everything.

6 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

for the low, low price of $139 US

In the meantime, you don't have to pay a cent for Forrest Sherman if you don't want to - she has been advertised as a coal ship since before she became available. I cannot for the life of me understand why someone would pay that many dubs for her.

[_ENO_]

14 hours ago, Ahskance said:

So the update we gave on the tick-rate talked about two things.  Firstly that the issue at the time was that there was a 2/7ths second delay.  The following update reduced that setting to only a 1/7th second delay to limit the impact of the issue.

The longer form change is to allow our code to see "when" a shot was queued so that it could harness firing data that exists between ticks.  This would make the firing rate as correct as is possible because the timings would all be recorded regardless of tick-rate.  This second concept requires code-work and is not a simple fix.  The expected time is likely in months for the more complete correct.

I'm amazed it's that important to give it a ridiculous shot rate instead of just finding some other more innovative way of improving its performance. Just gotta have those gimmicks piggybacked on other gimmicks I guess.

[Fool_of_a_Took]

1 hour ago, _ENO_ said:

I'm amazed it's that important to give it a ridiculous shot rate instead of just finding some other more innovative way of improving its performance. Just gotta have those gimmicks piggybacked on other gimmicks I guess.

the thing that gets me,, is when you ask the community managers onthere streams or wherever,, they will try to justify it....

[h9k_a]

15 hours ago, Boggzy said:

It's 30rpm TOTAL, not per gun.  He states in that same sentence that worst case scenario is 210rpm after a loss of 30rpm for all three guns.

 

Boggzy, I get that you're trying to minimize the issue here and buy time for the devs to put out a fix.

BUT, even optimistically, the server side limitations means a 5% - 10% DECREASE in the damage that a stock Sherman can put out. If you start stacking captain skills and modules, then that percentage increases dramatically. 

Until they can fix/test/deploy the server side so that all captain skills/modules can attain their calculated potential rates of fire, might I suggest nerfing the rate of fire to something a optimized Sherman with a full ROF build can output and buffing the damage and fire chance per shell so that by the spreadsheet the Sherman is outputting the same calculated damage per minute until it's resolved. After all, if the Sherman is "balanced," then this hotfix should allow a player with good aim to do the same damage over time even though a bad aim player would potentially do less since there's less of a shotgun effect. 

[Ahskance]

9 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

"However, actually fixing the issue would require spending money on new servers and faster Internet connections, and that is not something that we calculate would maximize our profits."

Actually no, this problem isn't something physical like a car.  The answer isn't just "get a bigger engine".  This requires coding to build a new foundation that tracks things in a way it never tracked before.  Even purchasing a Server that's more powerful would do nothing, because the code used to interact with the server would be the same and therefore yield the same result in this case.

As with most things, doing things takes time.
 

9 hours ago, Litigo_1970 said:

Therefore, we will continue to sell ships that we know do not perform as advertised

If the Sherman reload is 1.5 seconds base, then that's 40 Rounds/minute.  With the worst of a 2/7th delay, it's 33 Rounds, with the change to 1/7th delay, it's 36 Rounds.

That's not insignificant... but it's also the way she's always been used through the testing process.  It's the way she's been to give her the numbers and balancing points we've decided to stay with.  It's also possible that the addition of 10+% damage could make her overly powerful, which would be awkward for everyone.
 

2 hours ago, Fool_of_a_Took said:

the thing that gets me,, is when you ask the community managers onthere streams or wherever,, they will try to justify it....

Justify having different ships that play differently?

We have something like 300-400+ ships in our game.  Each ship should ideally have its own play pattern and style to allow it to both differentiate itself from others.

[Boggzy]

3 hours ago, Fool_of_a_Took said:

the thing that gets me,, is when you ask the community managers onthere streams or wherever,, they will try to justify it....

Being the person you're referring to here...

If you ask us why a ship is the way it is, there will be a reason, and we will give you that reason the best we understand it.  Forrest Sherman is a DPM gunboat like Harugumo.  They are somewhat fragile, non-healing, high DPM gunboats with smoke.

Ahskance and I are both extremely skilled players.  We played competitively for two years each before joining the company.  You can choose to dismiss our explanations of the ships characteristics as "attempting to justify" - but it's possible we might just know something.

[HorrorRoach]

14 minutes ago, Boggzy said:

Being the person you're referring to here...

If you ask us why a ship is the way it is, there will be a reason, and we will give you that reason the best we understand it.  Forrest Sherman is a DPM gunboat like Harugumo.  They are somewhat fragile, non-healing, high DPM gunboats with smoke.

Ahskance and I are both extremely skilled players.  We played competitively for two years each before joining the company.  You can choose to dismiss our explanations of the ships characteristics as "attempting to justify" - but it's possible we might just know something.

Smell'um and tell'um

[Boggzy]

2 minutes ago, HorrorRoach said:

Smell'um and tell'um

What does that mean?

[missile742]

The only take away from this thread is yet another example of why Boggzy and Ahskance both deserve a raise to constantly deal with this level of " community engagement"

[ArIskandir]

Hotfix: Fire in SALVO mode :P

[IfYouSeeKhaos]

9 hours ago, Boggzy said:

snip

Actually Ahskance was (until just recently now that he's started playing some other ships) just a CV main...

Didn't really have a lot of experience w/gun firing details in reference to this thread before joining the team...

14 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

...for the first time the server-tick issue is seriously and consistently manifested...

Actually...somebody pointed out that it has been a known issue for quite awhile...back when just the Kitakazi & Haragumo (& only a few others) were being affected by it...

Many new fast firing ships have been introduced since then.

[xHeavy]

11 hours ago, missile742 said:

The only take away from this thread is yet another example of why Boggzy and Ahskance both deserve a raise to constantly deal with this level of " community engagement"

THAT topic comes from Wows Reddit.

Wows Reddit is less tight on moderating than this site. You can go over things in great detail without being deleted before anyone has a chance to get a word in edge wise from the two hall monitors intent on moderating.

 

There IS a increasing number of fast reloading ships coming into the game that simply dont work as they should because the tick rate is too damn slow now. In online shooters you commonly have tickrates 30 to 60 per second. No problems then. No stuttering either.

Its time Wee Gee cracks a whip and giddy up that server. What good is your whiz bang fast firing warship when it falls flat on its face waiting to fire.

[IfYouSeeKhaos]

On 3/5/2022 at 8:50 PM, xHeavy said:

What good is your whiz bang fast firing warship when it falls flat on its face waiting to fire.

They don't wait to fire...& they still fire pretty fast (Kita is still considered the best in tier DD by many players)...

It's just it would have been totally broken & nerfed a long time ago (while in testing...long before it got to us) if the skills were working on them the way they were supposed to be.

Presently it sucks if you have those skills on because you really should remove them (& they ain't giving any free respects on this...but they probably will after nerfing all of those fast firing ships when they up the tick rate)...

The good news is for those that just got new ones...they don't have to waste the points on skills they know ain't working & can buff different odd things they never buffed before now that they have those extra points.

[Litigo_1970]

16 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

It's just it would have been totally broken & nerfed a long time ago (while in testing...long before it got to us) if the skills were working on them the way they were supposed to be.

Is everyone clear on what he is saying?
He is literally saying, if the game were working properly, (i.e the way Wargaming has been claiming it is working for 6 years, and selling ships based on those representations), then many ships would need to be rebalanced, because instead of fixing long standing problems, Wargaming has just been balancing ships around the bugs, problems, and defects in their game engine. 
Meanwhile, Wargaming has been advertising ships as having certain qualities, when Wargaming knows those ships don't have those qualities because of the problems in the game.

Literally, the situation is:

The game engine is so broken, Wargaming balances ships around how broken the game engine is: and if Wargaming were now to actually fix the game engine, ships would then perform in the way that Wargaming has been advertising them all along, which would then break the game again.

Try to get your head around that.