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Lerch2000

Japanese Cruisers, I think they need a buff of some kind

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Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there that really loves the Japanese cruiser line or even excels at them compared to the other cruisers in the game? Personally, I could be biased because I'm not a huge fan of the torpedo placements, they just don't feel right to me, tier for tier, they just seem to be off. They're lacking something.

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10 minutes ago, Lerch2000 said:

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there that really loves the Japanese cruiser line or even excels at them compared to the other cruisers in the game? Personally, I could be biased because I'm not a huge fan of the torpedo placements, they just don't feel right to me, tier for tier, they just seem to be off. They're lacking something.

Do you use them in a kiting manner?

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Honestly, I do but not much, the turret rotation is just bad to be shifting non-stop for me. Guessing you like them and that works for you?

Edited by Lerch2000

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25 minutes ago, Lerch2000 said:

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there that really loves the Japanese cruiser line or even excels at them compared to the other cruisers in the game? Personally, I could be biased because I'm not a huge fan of the torpedo placements, they just don't feel right to me, tier for tier, they just seem to be off. They're lacking something.

IJN cruisers were the first Tech Tree line I finished - and I'm very pro-German.

As said above, kiting away, going dark to re-angle and bring your torps to bear, spamming HE - learn to love these tactics if you want to get by with Japanese cruisers.

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IJN CAs are extremely effective kiting ships. They have good speed, good concealment, excellent HE shells, and their guns and torpedoes tend to have great rearward firing angles. IJN 203mm guns also have the best dispersion of any cruiser gun in the game, sharing the same dispersion curve as most destroyers (the new German DDs have even better dispersion). These features also make them excellent at supporting friendly DDs because a well-placed HE salvo will really mess up an opposing destroyer.

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IJN cruisers need a modernization pass, at least at the higher tiers. The poor gun angles, low range, and poor turret traverse kept them balanced back in the day, but there is no reason for it in the current meta.

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41 minutes ago, Lerch2000 said:

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there that really loves the Japanese cruiser line or even excels at them compared to the other cruisers in the game? Personally, I could be biased because I'm not a huge fan of the torpedo placements, they just don't feel right to me, tier for tier, they just seem to be off. They're lacking something.

What they lack is their historical performance..or be close to it. All IJN ships are massively underpowered on purpose. 

All cruisers and DDs should be equipped with Long Lance 20km torps. IJN had them on all ships before the war started. In WG-land however, this would only mirror reality if it had been the soviet union that did that. 

Yamato class hulls never had that moronic cheektadel. 

No IJN ships, besides those up to tier 4~ish (pre-WW1 constructions) had such glacial turret traverse. Yet in this game we have absurdities like Mogami with 155mm guns sitting on turrets specifically designed to carry the heavier 203mm rotating at glacial speeds.... but oh boy, soviet ww1 and pre-ww1 ships rotate those turrets as if they were nuclear powered. Balanz da? 

What they lack is precisely what they got massively nerfed in long ago: turret rotation... and the torpedo range should be added to them. Right now, only the Yoshino class hulls have the appropriate turret rotation and torpedo range ...it's why people can literally just skip the entire IJN cruiser line and just get Yoshino to enjoy a non-hate coded IJN cruiser play. 

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16 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

What they lack is their historical performance..or be close to it. All IJN ships are massively underpowered on purpose. 

All cruisers and DDs should be equipped with Long Lance 20km torps. IJN had them on all ships before the war started. In WG-land however, this would only mirror reality if it had been the soviet union that did that. 

Yamato class hulls never had that moronic cheektadel. 

No IJN ships, besides those up to tier 4~ish (pre-WW1 constructions) had such glacial turret traverse. Yet in this game we have absurdities like Mogami with 155mm guns sitting on turrets specifically designed to carry the heavier 203mm rotating at glacial speeds.... but oh boy, soviet ww1 and pre-ww1 ships rotate those turrets as if they were nuclear powered. Balanz da? 

What they lack is precisely what they got massively nerfed in long ago: turret rotation... and the torpedo range should be added to them. Right now, only the Yoshino class hulls have the appropriate turret rotation and torpedo range ...it's why people can literally just skip the entire IJN cruiser line and just get Yoshino to enjoy a non-hate coded IJN cruiser play. 

Seriously, the IJN was not all that in WWII.  They had serious design, doctrinal and technological deficiencies.  They were, at best, the third most capable navy in the world.  Yes, they landed some punches, but overall the war in the Pacific is a litany of IJN defeats.

I say this as somebody who's WoWS play breakdown is heavily tilted towards the IJN (IJN: 37%, RN: 23%, USN: 19%, USSR: 10%, Germany: 6%) that your ideas of balance would result in nothing being worth playing other than IJN ships.  They do not suck like you claim and their win rates and use by super-unicums in competitive environments demonstrate this.  There are some that lag, but it is not nearly as dire as you claim every time the subject comes up.

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1 hour ago, Lerch2000 said:

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody out there that really loves the Japanese cruiser line or even excels at them compared to the other cruisers in the game? Personally, I could be biased because I'm not a huge fan of the torpedo placements, they just don't feel right to me, tier for tier, they just seem to be off. They're lacking something.

Noting your clan name, are you talking about in Co-Op? The reason I ask is like someone else here mentioned, the torps are often better used in kiting situations where the IJN CAs do better. If you're kiting in Co-Op, you're doing it wrong given the current state of the bots...

That said, I see a lot of players do great in Mogami (155), in Co-Op and Myoko in Narai (Operation). Atago has been a strong premium from day one at game-launch and has decent torp angles for the most part. Overall though, yes... there has been a lot of power creep. When they were released, the only opposition was US cruisers that had no torps in the upper tiers.

 

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1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

IJN CAs are extremely effective kiting ships. They have good speed, good concealment, excellent HE shells, and their guns and torpedoes tend to have great rearward firing angles. IJN 203mm guns also have the best dispersion of any cruiser gun in the game, sharing the same dispersion curve as most destroyers (the new German DDs have even better dispersion). These features also make them excellent at supporting friendly DDs because a well-placed HE salvo will really mess up an opposing destroyer.

Extremely is somewhat an overstatement. They are good at it, yes. But if you want to do that, the British give it to you, with better HE pen and more tankiness. 

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Starting Tiers seem fine, later tiers are the issue with me, now when the game was new the fact they had their torps and average HE with a good speed made them effective. Nowadays just about every ship out there has torps and a solid speed with good rudder traverse, the current IJN seems to me in need of a makeover.

 

And no my "clan" has nothing to do with this and why would it (joined the clan I think 2 days ago).

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10 minutes ago, Lerch2000 said:

And no my "clan" has nothing to do with this and why would it (joined the clan I think 2 days ago).

Because as xamdam pointed out there is a distinct difference in game play (or at least there should be) in co-op as opposed to random.

You can sail straight up to a bot & torp it out in anything with torps (no matter what torp angles it has)...with little to no repercussions...

Much more situational to be able to do that in an IJN cruiser in random...

The scenario occurs occasionally but it's usually best to do it from a kiting position as opposed to a charging position in random.

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The biggest problem I had with IJN CAs, was lack of range, especially when bottom tier.

A Spotter Plane starting form tier 5~6 instead of tier 9 would go a long way to buff the mid-tier CAs.

A 12km torpedo option on tier 8 and 9 would also be welcome ( I will settle for Yahagi's 12 km torpedoes )

The Italian mid and high tier CAs play similar to IJN CAs, but the Italian ones a "better" due to:
Spotter Plane starting tier 5
12 km Torpedoes starting tier 6, 13.5 km torpedoes tier 9 & 10
Fuel Smoke aka "get out of jail free card" to do a 180° turns with out getting "blapped".

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12 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Because as xamdam pointed out there is a distinct difference in game play (or at least there should be) in co-op as opposed to random.

You can sail straight up to a bot & torp it out in anything with torps (no matter what torp angles it has)...with little to no repercussions...

Much more situational to be able to do that in an IJN cruiser in random...

The scenario occurs occasionally but it's usually best to do it from a kiting position as opposed to a charging position in random.

But a clan or clan name doesn't not determine the game style or game play of the indivial.

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

What they lack is their historical performance..or be close to it. All IJN ships are massively underpowered on purpose. 

Yes because I'm sure IJN 100mm shells in real life would have the same HE penetration performance as a 180mm gun, like it does in-game.  There is absolutely no reason why the IJN 100mm gun should break all HE pen rules in the game and have a flat 30mm base pen, and the whole IJN gunboat line from T8-10 is overpowered for a reason.  I'm also certain in game the poor armor quality of IJN ships in real life is not reflected in-game as in-game values are taken from raw thicknesses, not effective thickness.  For torpedoes, when would you ever need more than 20 km of range anyway?  The real life range of the long-lance while very impressive is basically unnecessary, and in real life the 40 km range setting was 36-38 knots.  

Quote

Yamato class hulls never had that moronic cheektadel. 

Yes they do, it's just in real life bow tanking doesn't work.  The octagonal citadel layout is what the Yamatos were designed and built with.

A perfect example of the "All or Nothing" armour scheme — Japanese Battleship  Yamato armour schematic and machinery placement. Made by Sławomir Lipiecki.  [2100x874] : r/WarshipPorn

Quote

No IJN ships, besides those up to tier 4~ish (pre-WW1 constructions) had such glacial turret traverse. Yet in this game we have absurdities like Mogami with 155mm guns sitting on turrets specifically designed to carry the heavier 203mm rotating at glacial speeds....

Have you literally every looked at a reputable historical source?  Navweaps shows all the IJN turrets in game are actually faster than in real life.  

In game Yamato's turret traverse is 3 degrees/second, nearly 50% faster than what it was in real life.

image.png.aaf130d8939a65d12b08557a1a6295cd.png

Mogami's turret traverse is 5 degrees/second in game, in real life the mounts were between 5-6 degrees/second.  I believe 6 degrees/second was achieved on the Yamato and Oyodo only.

image.thumb.png.5e3106397d1c48f7823452e735266824.png

One final example, Nagato, Kii and Amagi's twin 410mm turrets.  Nagato has 3.8 degrees/second in game, while Amagi has 4.3 degrees/second and Kii has 4 degrees/second, all faster than the historical 3 degrees/second turret traverse.

image.thumb.png.986823554d5ea7818f647f74a2a6779f.png

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but oh boy, soviet ww1 and pre-ww1 ships rotate those turrets as if they were nuclear powered. Balanz da? 

Soviet battleships have the worst turret traverse of any battleships until Tier 8, where it's average at that point.  The fast traverse only starts at Tier 9, and Soyuz and Kremlin aren't breaking any balancing standards right now anyway.  We also have examples with Petropavlovsk having worse turret traverse than most battleships.

Edited by ValkyrWarframe

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3 minutes ago, Lerch2000 said:

But a clan or clan name doesn't not determine the game style or game play of the indivial.

I understand what you mean...despite my clan I am a random main...

But when you have a Coop clan tag & inquire about gameplay (without clarifying g what mode you're referring to) people are going to clarify if you are referring to random or co-op because the response to the question (any gameplay) will vary drastically between the 2...

& rather than give you a detailed explanation of how to play a certain way in random only to assume you might say "but I don't play random...cant you see my clan tag?"...they're probably gonna clarify with you 1st.

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To clear something up, I asked for the opinions of the cruiser line and not the gameplay...

Nevermind you all have a good one and enjoy your games.

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23 minutes ago, Lerch2000 said:

To clear something up, I asked for the opinions of the cruiser line and not the gameplay...

Nevermind you all have a good one and enjoy your games.

To answer your question directly, I love the Japanese cruisers. They are one of my favourite lines, so I certainly wouldn't mind some buffs lol. I have reset them 3 times, I think

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1 hour ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Because as xamdam pointed out there is a distinct difference in game play (or at least there should be) in co-op as opposed to random.

You can sail straight up to a bot & torp it out in anything with torps (no matter what torp angles it has)...with little to no repercussions...

Much more situational to be able to do that in an IJN cruiser in random...

The scenario occurs occasionally but it's usually best to do it from a kiting position as opposed to a charging position in random.

This. And since your stats are hidden (which is fine, so are mine except by link and to my clanmates) I thought you might be basing your opinion on CO-OP performance / feel due to the clan name. My bad. No offense intended.

 

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Play the Mogami and Atago pretty much once a day lately. Very fun ships and competitive. I imagine veteran players still do fine with the IJN line.  Newer players may be a bit overmatched. They need to rework all of the old tech lines. They do not need much but a tweak or two would help them. 

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4 hours ago, Lerch2000 said:

They're lacking something.

Are you trolling or being serious? Because all Japanese cruisers have heightened HE damage and fire chance in addition to DD dispersion now. Meanwhile, contemporary cruisers have cruiser dispersion, Graf Spee dispersion or Montana Disoersion. I think DD dispersion extends even to their post treary heavy cruisers Azuma and Yoshino.

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4 hours ago, Helstrem said:

 

I say this as somebody who's WoWS play breakdown is heavily tilted towards the IJN (IJN: 37%, RN: 23%, USN: 19%, USSR: 10%, Germany: 6%) that your ideas of balance would result in nothing being worth playing other than IJN ships.  They do not suck like you claim and their win rates and use by super-unicums in competitive environments demonstrate this.  There are some that lag, but it is not nearly as dire as you claim every time the subject comes up.

The IJN work OK in random still, but have been power crept for sure.  But competitive?

Don't recall seeing Zao in Typhoon league...not even once.  In fact, think I only saw it in Storm a couple times. 

Two qualities that make cruisers good CB ships is utility and durability... and Zao is a bit low in both of these departments...

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52 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

heightened HE damage and fire chance

Doesn't matter if the shells don't pen. Fires per minute on IJN cruisers is actually on the low end, due to the poor reload.

56 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

I think DD dispersion extends even to their post treary heavy cruisers Azuma and Yoshino.

Definitely not. Their overall dispersion is similar to other battlecruisers.

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12 minutes ago, SuperSSL said:

Doesn't matter if the shells don't pen. Fires per minute on IJN cruisers is actually on the low end, due to the poor reload.

HE Shells dont have to pen to start fires you know; All they have to do is hit the deck or superstructure. That bonus fire chance really adds up.

12 minutes ago, SuperSSL said:

Definitely not. Their overall dispersion is similar to other battlecruisers.

Doesn't feel that way to me. Azuma is definitely more accurate and consistent than Alaska.

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