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Maredraco

Disabled Asymmetric Battles

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Commanders!

Last week, we decided to disable Asymmetric Battles and have now made the decision not to re-enable this battle mode at this time.

The original idea for this mode was “David vs Goliath” where players who have an advantage in numbers are pitted against opponents who are outnumbered, but control superior ships. 

This concept is unconventional for our Matchmaker since in this mode, the players choose which team to join, whereas usually, Matchmaker takes care of this part. We did not fully account for the impact this player choice would have on this mode, considering that it was supposed to pit players versus players by design. This aspect of the mode’s design largely resulted in battles where there were too many bots for players to have an engaging and interesting PvP experience, which directly contradicts with our initial design goal of delivering a "David vs Goliath" gameplay experience.

Considering the circumstances, we’ll need more time to fix the issues that currently prevent us from delivering on this design goal. We know that some of you were enjoying the mode in its current state or shared our vision of what it was supposed to play like and will be disappointed with it being disabled indefinitely. Rest assured we plan to bring it back when we’ve fixed these current issues and are confident the mode provides a challenging and fun PvP experience.

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10 minutes ago, Maredraco said:

Commanders!

 

Last week, we decided to disable Asymmetric Battles and have now made the decision not to re-enable this battle mode at this time.

The original idea for this mode was “David vs Goliath” where players who have an advantage in numbers are pitted against opponents who are outnumbered, but control superior ships. 

 

This concept is unconventional for our Matchmaker since in this mode, the players choose which team to join, whereas usually, Matchmaker takes care of this part. We did not fully account for the impact this player choice would have on this mode, considering that it was supposed to pit players versus players by design. This aspect of the mode’s design largely resulted in battles where there were too many bots for players to have an engaging and interesting PvP experience, which directly contradicts with our initial design goal of delivering a "David vs Goliath" gameplay experience.

 

Considering the circumstances, we’ll need more time to fix the issues that currently prevent us from delivering on this design goal. We know that some of you were enjoying the mode in its current state or shared our vision of what it was supposed to play like and will be disappointed with it being disabled indefinitely. Rest assured we plan to bring it back when we’ve fixed these current issues and are confident the mode provides a challenging and fun PvP experience.

In case anyone else had an issue trying to read the original post.

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14 minutes ago, Maredraco said:

 the issues that currently prevent us from delivering on this design goal.

1) Remove the tokens required to play Tier 9+ and I think you will find the number of high tier ships rising appropriately.

2) For some reason, I was hanging around in a queue for nine minutes in an Ostergotland, minutes after fighting against an all-human T9 team. I gave up at that point. If you're going to flesh out the team with bots, I would rather default to being a lone human with all bot team-mates against a full human T8 team after four minutes than wait that long again to no avail. Something was clearly very wrong for this to happen, and IMHO that alone justifies yanking the mode until some other solution is sorted out.

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13 minutes ago, HamptonRoads said:

In case anyone else had an issue trying to read the original post.

Thanks for letting us know. It should be fixed now, please let me know if it is still hard to read.

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23 minutes ago, Maredraco said:

Rest assured we plan to bring it back when we’ve fixed these current issues

That sounds like it's going to go away again?

 

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18 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

1) Remove the tokens required to play Tier 9+ and I think you will find the number of high tier ships rising appropriately.

It might, but not sure it would. Too many players realized the real profits were being on the lower team. I assume by the time WG pulled the plug, a lot of players had the tokens to play high tier but chose not to. Which made the meta self perpetuating as any that tried the high tier team found themselves surrounded by bots.

Just wondering, were these the Scenario bots or the coop, blind gunner bots?

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One "fix" WG could try would be to give players a 10% boost to XP (and everything derived from that) from the match for every bot on your team.  You might still  lose the match as the only human but your overall score shouldn't be so painful. May even be better than some on the winning team.

If you actually pull off a win, your score should be great.

Edited by Sabot_100
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1 minute ago, Sabot_100 said:

Just wondering, were these the Scenario bots or the coop, blind gunner bots?

From my experience, they seemed almost as navagationally challenged as the co-op bots -- mostly piling into one cap (but I did see the human bots split to go for caps a few times), not really trying to avoid islands if they got close or trying to dodge torps. They also kept the 'must focus the lowest HP target' mentality. But they seemed to have better aim than what we have in co-op now. Still not enough to sink player ships as quickly as the humans sank them, but cruiser shells were landing a lot closer to my DDs than they normally did in co-op.

Of course, the bot CV pilots were the same as co-op, but they didn't even move the carrier itself in asymmetric. The only times I saw one move is when it spotted torps. And since they were typically destroyer torps, it really didn't change the outcome for them.

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39 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

For some reason, I was hanging around in a queue for nine minutes in an Ostergotland

Same here, in both Jutland and Tashkent (7 minutes before giving up in Tash the second day, 9 or 10 for Jutland the evening of the first). The only times I personally saw high tier DDs in my ~30 t7/8 games were on all-human teams, with heavy/all bot teams almost exclusively being carrier/6 cruisers or a couple human BBs and bot cruisers.

I've seen one instance of bot destroyers on the high tier team (Jingles' Incomparable video), and I think one or two low tier bot DDs, but that's it. The rest of the high tier DDs were human. And based on my two attempts, your Ostergotland experience, and a couple other player reports, it almost seems like MM was waiting to put t9 DDs in all-human teams rather than starting to fill with bots at a certain point like it did for cruisers/battleships/carriers.

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34 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

It might, but not sure it would. Too many players realized the real profits were being on the lower team. I assume by the time WG pulled the plug, a lot of players had the tokens to play high tier but chose not to. Which made the meta self perpetuating as any that tried the high tier team found themselves surrounded by bots.

 

What happens to all of the Battle Tokens that you have accumulated playing this mode?

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48 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

It might, but not sure it would. Too many players realized the real profits were being on the lower team.

I guess it depends on the motivation. Are you there to farm XP (e.g. for flag conversion into FXP and ECXP) and credits, or are you there to grind a ship? If so, which ship are you grinding? Those grinding T9 ships had every reason to go for the short, high team; the rest of them, probably as you suggest.

I would have thought there'd still be enough people trying to get through Rupprecht to Schlieffen, FDG to GK (or be ready for Preussen on Day 1), Tashkent to Khaba (or XP for Delny if they already have Khaba), or Sejong (if they got it on the first bundle) to be ready for Jinan, and Tier 9 should have been reasonably populated.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I guess it depends on the motivation. Are you there to farm XP (e.g. for flag conversion into FXP and ECXP) and credits, or are you there to grind a ship?

It does become self fulfilling, self perpetuating though. First few people try the higher tier and keep getting on bot teams, get slaughtered, get few rewards, so they go back to lower tier team for the rewards or quit the mode completely. As each new player gets the tokens and tries top tier, they experience the same thing. Only reason to keep playing the mode is to grind the low tier rewards. Soon, those are the only players left. Everyone KNOWS (assumes) what will happen if you try the high tier, so nobody does.

I'm sure some managed to get full  human high tier but not often enough to keep them coming back or to make itself sustaining. Notice all the cries of anguish when WG shut down the XP farm were from those that thought they had found the mother lode.

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1 hour ago, Nutaz said:

What happens to all of the Battle Tokens that you have accumulated playing this mode?

Those tokens and $3 will get you a cup of regular coffee at Starbucks

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2 hours ago, MidnightPhoenix07 said:

Same here, in both Jutland and Tashkent (7 minutes before giving up in Tash the second day, 9 or 10 for Jutland the evening of the first). The only times I personally saw high tier DDs in my ~30 t7/8 games were on all-human teams, with heavy/all bot teams almost exclusively being carrier/6 cruisers or a couple human BBs and bot cruisers.

I've seen one instance of bot destroyers on the high tier team (Jingles' Incomparable video), and I think one or two low tier bot DDs, but that's it. The rest of the high tier DDs were human. And based on my two attempts, your Ostergotland experience, and a couple other player reports, it almost seems like MM was waiting to put t9 DDs in all-human teams rather than starting to fill with bots at a certain point like it did for cruisers/battleships/carriers.

Related to this, did anyone else notice that the mixed bot/human high tier teams seemed to happen less often as the event ran? By the time I stopped playing, I was seeing either full bot teams or full human teams, I wasn't seeing the mixed higher tier teams anymore.

Reason I ask, I was wondering if WG maybe tried to band-aid things live by making it full human or full bot teams only. That'd explain what I was seeing and the long wait times you were seeing.

Edited by Harathan

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So it will come back when they nerf it so we no longer earn good bxp/fxp?

Edited by monpetitloup
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3 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

So it will come back when they nerf it so we no longer earn good bxp/fxp?

More correctly it will come back if/when WG can ensure a much higher rate of a full human high tier teams.

Which will result in the mode not being an easy XP farm for the low tier team.

Maybe WG will make it so damaging /killing bots pays the same as coop (or scenario) but killing humans pays like randoms  (or original Assym). Therefore the only way to get max XP for the battle would be to have humans on both teams. If you were a lone human facing a full human team, all of your damage would count at the higher level. Most of the other team would get coop levels of XP. Some of the farmers would see that as a nerf.

My previous proposal for getting XP bonus multiplier for each bot on your team might also work.

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3 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

It might, but not sure it would. Too many players realized the real profits were being on the lower team. I assume by the time WG pulled the plug, a lot of players had the tokens to play high tier but chose not to. Which made the meta self perpetuating as any that tried the high tier team found themselves surrounded by bots.

 Just wondering, were these the Scenario bots or the coop, blind gunner bots?

If you can get achievements in Asymmetric, that would be a great way to farm Kraken, Confederate, Witherer etc when playing for the high tier team.

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3 hours ago, monpetitloup said:

So it will come back when they nerf it so we no longer earn good bxp/fxp?

The obvious, but not necessarily best, way to fix it is to make it so that there's no bots. Both teams have to be full human teams. Since WG have opted not to do that, we can make some guesses as to why.

1. Technical limitations mean they can't, which seems unlikely. Surely they can turn off MM's ability to fill empty spots with bots.

2. They can but don't think it's a good fix. Couple of reasons for this that I can think of is long queue times if not enough people are queueing at a given tier, or they want to see if they can make bots pay out at co-op levels while players pay out at PVP levels.

Either way, I don't see why they couldn't leave it running for a few days to see if the higher tier numbers picked up.

Edited by Harathan

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As I said in the earlier thread that got locked, if you all really want to fix this game mode, it is very simple.  Forget the stupid token junk, simply make it so when you select asymmetric battle mode, it requires you to ready up a low tier and high tier ship at the same time.  Then when you hit battle, the asymmetric match maker grabs whichever ship it requires to make a match.  Yes players without high tier ships won't be able to participate, but life sucks, buy a helmet, or in this case grind some more and buy a top tier ship.  Yeah it will require WG buying the devs some more Vodka, so that they can turn out some high quality code to enable the double ship queuing.  That or maybe dump the idea for now and put a few bottles of Vodka into doing something to make the training room interface less of a dumpster fire...

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1 hour ago, Harathan said:

The obvious way to fix it is to make it so that there's no bots. Both teams have to be full human teams.

WG made it so you had to have bots as players had to earn the right to play high tier ships. The first battles  had to be vs high tier bots.

Ideally this would be just a short period before players got their tokens to play high tier. I'm guessing the first players to advance got stuck on bot teams so quit playing high tier and that became a perpetual avoidance. Especially when the rewards were better for the low team. 

How are you going to fill out teams if there is a huge disparity between the numbers wanting to play the tiers? Do you let people sit in the low tier queue for an hour waiting for a game?

Do you force players with tokens to play high tier? i.e. You can't have more than 2 tokens when playing bottom tier. You'll have to burn off that 3rd token before you can play low tier again. As mentioned above, this too would screw over players who only have T8 ships (or have a T10 they really hate)

 

Edited by Sabot_100

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4 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I guess it depends on the motivation.

Which also involves whether or not someone cares to play a PvP mode, and more specifically, a high tier PvP mode.

WG likely couldn’t incentivize me sufficiently enough to even play the mode; and even if I did I’d likely only play on the lower tier team.

4 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Do you force players with tokens to play high tier? i.e. You can't have more than 2 tokens when playing bottom tier. You'll have to burn off that 3rd token before you can play low tier again.

Was thinking about something along these lines, but hadn’t sorted my thoughts before your post.

I personally am indifferent about it, but I’m sure there are those who would cackle gleefully about players being excluded from the mode because they don’t have the right ships; probably saying something along the lines of ‘anyone who doesn’t isn’t experienced enough to be in the mode anyway.’

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59 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

WG made it so you had to have bots as players had to earn the right to play high tier ships. The first battles  had to be vs high tier bots.

Right. This is just my opinion of course, obviously I can't state this as a fact, but to me it wasn't implemented as a PVP mode. It was implemented as a PVE mode in which you could earn tokens to take the place of bots so that players themselves could turn it into a PVP mode. Something that was designed from the start to have bots unless players CHOSE to make it a PVP mode was not, in my mind, designed as a PVP mode. I'm sure it was planned to be a PVP mode, I'm sure it was intended to be a PVP mode, but the design, it appeared to me, very clearly was not.

Boggzy insisted that one of the reasons it was removed was because "PVP players don't enjoy playing against bots". If that's correct then logically the only way to make it a strictly PVP mode that PVP players will enjoy is to make the teams 100% human every time. Hence my suggestion to that effect.

If instead it turns out that some PVP players have no problems fighting against bots as a fill-in for human players (there seem to be a few folks who have expressed this view) then I submit that the mode could have continued as it was; players would eventually get enough tickets that the higher tier population would fill out. If it didn't then either it's a matter of incentive and WG could encourage players to play the higher tiers by making sure the rewards for doing so match the rewards for playing the lower tiers, or it's a matter of player population and WG could lower the tiers for the event to widen the pool.

Unless of course the problem was something other than player enjoyment or the mode not working as intended. In that case WG would need to take the mode away and fundamentally rethink the plan, intent, design and implementation. 

So, tl;dr: If incentive is the problem, adjust the rewards. If player population is the problem, adjust the tiers used. If PVP players not wanting to play against bots is the problem, make the mode 100% human players only.

I'm not a developer, so while I understand that these solutions are easy to suggest, they may not be easy to implement. Designing and implementing something so it works the way it was planned and intended is something that can sometimes be tricky, I think we'd all agree.

Edited by Harathan

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Which also involves whether or not someone cares to play a PvP mode,

Oh for sure, but WG made no secret about this being SUPPOSED to be PvP, and if that doesn't float your boat then for sure don't select it before you hit "Battle".

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4 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

WG made it so you had to have bots as players had to earn the right to play high tier ships. The first battles  had to be vs high tier bots.

Which is what makes WG's reaction to the bot-filled T9-10 teams so bizarre. They literally designed the mode so that for the first day at least it had to be top-tier bots fighting upper-mid-tier players. And then after that first day they yanked the game mode entirely rather than keeping it going long enough to find out whether the top-tier teams would start filling with players once tokens started accumulating.

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What is mind-boggling to me is the idea that it is difficult to incentivize players. No. That is stupid. Brawls have a payout of 10k coal for 41 wins in a week. That is enough to get a huge playerbase. Literally all you would need to do to get players to fill the battles is incentivize them. 7.5k coal for a low-tier win chain and 750 steel for a high-tier win chain. Or get excessive and say 10 steel for every game at high-tier, plus 5 for a win. Who thought it was a good plan to give players a small amount of the least valuable currency in the game (~1500 community points per week? Really?) and expect high participation? Especially when you can get those rewards by playing lower tier ships exclusively anyway?

Players prioritize rewards. I didn't have any particular t7-t8 ships I was focused on the 18 hours it was open, so I didn't bother playing at all until later in the week - the rewards just didn't justify any kind of prioritization.

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