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trikke

time to start a destroyer line, in coop

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2 months and a few days in-game, 90% in coop     75% in cruisers, and they fit my playstyle pretty well

i rarely kill anything with guns     if something dies, it was because i was really lucky        i'm a terrible aimer

but i do well with torps...  much better aimer, the green stripe is a perfect aiming tool for my particular brain, better than numbers on a scale

i've tried DDs     i have fun in the Okhotnik and the Minekaze, but playing them like cruisers doesn't work out        it's going to take a change in style, but i'm willing to work hard

 

what line is the most newbie-friendly?       i'm only going up to T7, because i have no interest in higher tiers in general, so that should help in nation choices

 

btw, whatever happened to the Kamikase and the Fujin?

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IJN gunboat line

Tier 6 & 7 are alright but the real fun begins at tier 8. You get ridiculous DPM to gun down opposing destroyers and some cruisers while your strong IJN torpedoes can easily take out battleships. The ability to pop smoke and farm to your heart's content is super relaxing after a long day.

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Oh Yeah, Akizuki/Haragumo DPM is outrageous!

 

This is where hopping on the test server comes in handy. You can jump WAY ahead and see how you like them.

Edited by ItsSubmersible

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IJN   you should like fubuki at T6 & both lines are good torp vehicles

 

USN    mahn at T7 finally gives you torps with some range and guns at the same time...

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Another vote for the IJN gun boat line, which is the line you are on with the Minekaze.  As was mentioned they don't really become good gun boats until T8.  The T5-T7 are probably more torpedo focused, which you already understand how to use.

As for learning to hit with guns, practice.  If you find the numbers on the reticle confusing you can just learn to shoot by feel.

Edited by Slimeball91

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1 hour ago, trikke said:

2 months and a few days in-game, 90% in coop     75% in cruisers, and they fit my playstyle pretty well

i rarely kill anything with guns     if something dies, it was because i was really lucky        i'm a terrible aimer

but i do well with torps...  much better aimer, the green stripe is a perfect aiming tool for my particular brain, better than numbers on a scale

i've tried DDs     i have fun in the Okhotnik and the Minekaze, but playing them like cruisers doesn't work out        it's going to take a change in style, but i'm willing to work hard

 

what line is the most newbie-friendly?       i'm only going up to T7, because i have no interest in higher tiers in general, so that should help in nation choices

 

btw, whatever happened to the Kamikase and the Fujin?

The "Torpedo 'Bote" school of thought involves managing one's detection (i.e. remaining undetected) and using favorable positioning to launch torpedoes at targets in order to sink them, preferably with a devastating strike.
These DD's are set-up with best-in-tier concealment and can out-spot other DD's and every other ship type (including Submarines that are surfaced).  So they can help a team focus fire on a target which cannot see the stealthy DD.
It takes a minimum of 10 skill points to get to the "Concealment Expert" Captain's skill.

The "Gunboat" school is less concerned with remaining undetected. 
It's not that they can't borrow a page from the Torpedo 'Bote play-book.  It's just that most of the time they're not set-up for such game-play and instead attempt to sink opposing ships with gunfire that exceeds the gunfire they're likely to receive in exchange. 
(In order to make that work, one will have to learn how to aim.)
Gunboat DD's are able to use AP projectiles to score citadel hits on Cruisers, for example. 
Using HE projectiles, they start fires and incapacitate equipment and use their comparitively rapid reloading to harrass DD's, Cruisers, BB's, CV's and the occasional Submarine.

Both types of DD's are capable of the "ambush" and the "jousting pass".
Ambush = hide behind an island and send torpedoes into the unwary target that comes around the island.  Preferably while remaining undetected or only detected at the last moment.
Jousting Pass = one delivers one's salvo of torpedoes at nearly "point blank" range into the hull of a target while detected and being fired upon.  Common in Co-op, less common in random battles.
It helps to approach a target on the side that their turrets are pointed away from.  (Target is aiming to the target's starboard?  Approach on their portside, if feasible, so you only risk secondary battery guns or a target's torpedo launchers.)

When engaged in fighting other DD's, which are maneuverable (and sometimes sailed by players with experience gained by making risky situations pay-off in their favor) it may help to be a little bit crazy.
Close-quarters encounters are common, and being hit by only one torpedo may send one back to Port.
It helps to be aware of torpedo launching arcs and gun firing arcs.  Try to be someplace where the opponent cannot hit you with some or all of their ordnance, while maximizing your ability to hit them with your ordnance.
Sometimes retreat is the best option.  Sometimes a ramming is the best option.
It can be an exhilarating "dance".

Torpedoes require a minimum distance to arm.
I've been known to approach targets close to their hulls without ramming them, when I need to avoid being hit by their torpedoes.
This tactic can be done by any ship in the proper circumstances.

Have questions?  
Feel free to ask.
If I cannot help, I'll try to find someone who can.  :-)

Edited by Wolfswetpaws
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I'm going to go against the recommendations for the IJN Gunboat Line.  The name of the game for DDs in Co-Op are Torpedoes.  The torpedo reload for IJN DD Gunboats is too long at the start.  If I spawned my regular torpedo focused DD alongside your IJN Gunboat DD, I'll zip past you with my torpedoes loaded and ready to start nuking stuff while you're camping in smoke, waiting for yours to to be ready.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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At the start, the Russian line is a blast up to about tier 5.  The torps load quickly, and you normally play close.  After that you'd like a bit more torp range.  The guns get good at that point, but the rotation is limited.

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The first line I worked up was the French and their destroyers are a great deal of fun but not really good for a first destroyer line, and definitely not for the 'sneak and torp' crowd. BUT, they are fast fast fast and the shootfast button is 15 seconds of pure joy. No smoke is an entirely different experience for a destroyer.

Then I worked up the US destroyer line and I do recommend it for a first destroyer line. They are pretty good at everything. Great smoke, plenty of torps, good guns, decent speed. If you are looking for a jack-of-all-trades this is the line.

I've been trying to work on the Japanese torpedo line and I hate, hate, hate it. Probably because I'm a gunner and sneaking around launching torpedoes is not my thing. I'm not sure they are a good fit for coop.

I've got Russians up to tier 6 and they are an odd mix, with heavy guns good for long range and extremely short range but deadly torpedoes. 

I've got Germans up to Tier 7 and they have super heavy guns (fewer rounds downrange but more damage when you hit) and good torpedoes.

I've got British up to tier 6 and they feel like torpedo boats too, but no speed button. Not warming to them.

BTW, my tactic for coop destroyers is:

Race into the nearest cap (with speed boost if you have it)

gun down the bot destroyer (go broadside, don't use smoke, WASD but don't silence any guns, try to stay in cap).

After the destroyer is dead smoke and try to kill the cruiser with guns. If it gets too close torpedo it but don't use them all if you can avoid it. Torp within 2 km, less than 1.5 if it is bow on.

After the cruiser is dead charge the battleship and torpedo it from inside 2 km.

If you can claim the cap that's worth one ship in experience so it's a good idea to claim it rather than racing across the board only to watch another ship sink the last bot just as you reach gun range. (this applies to all ships, can't remember how many times I've seen people sail out of cap a few seconds before claiming to go hunting)

 

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9 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'm going to go against the recommendations for the IJN Gunboat Line.  The name of the game for DDs in Co-Op are Torpedoes.  The torpedo reload for IJN DD Gunboats is too long at the start.  If I spawned my regular torpedo focused DD alongside your IJN Gunboat DD, I'll zip past you with my torpedoes loaded and ready to start nuking stuff while you're camping in smoke, waiting for yours to to be ready.

You wouldn't blow past me since I'm not camping smoke in my IJN gun boats.  I gun down the enemy DD, and often the cruiser too.  By that time the torps are loaded.  I really think you're underestimating the value of guns for DDs in co-op.  Guns first, torps are the gravy.

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2 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

You wouldn't blow past me since I'm not camping smoke in my IJN gun boats.  I gun down the enemy DD, and often the cruiser too.  By that time the torps are loaded.  I really think you're underestimating the value of guns for DDs in co-op.  Guns first, torps are the gravy.

Unless that Cruiser is already on low health, you're not gunning down a Cruiser with DD guns :Smile_coin:  You aren't gunning down that Des Moines with guns before I nuke it with torpedoes.

To be clear, I think DD guns in Co-Op are mostly useless.  Useful in removing the opposing bot DD(s)?  Sure.  Outside that they're useless.  I bet in your own DD games, the overwhelming bulk of your damage done is via torpedoes.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

To be clear, I think DD guns in Co-Op are mostly useless.  Useful in removing the opposing bot DD(s)?  Sure.  Outside that they're useless.  I bet in your own DD games, the overwhelming bulk of your damage done is via torpedoes.

True.  With guns I do 10-15k damage to the enemy DD, and 10-20k to the cruiser.  I can then torp the BB for 50-100k damage.  Here's the secret, I get just as much or more XP from that damage from the guns as the torp run on the BB.

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1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

True.  With guns I do 10-15k damage to the enemy DD, and 10-20k to the cruiser.  I can then torp the BB for 50-100k damage.  Here's the secret, I get just as much or more XP from that damage from the guns as the torp run on the BB.

The fun part is I can do the same thing in murdering a Bot DD(s) with "normal" DD guns.  My Fletcher will machinegun that DD.  My Shimakaze can do the same job.  My AL Yukikaze and her awful guns can do the same thing also.  You don't need IJN 100mm, RU 130mm, or FR 139mm guns to murder DDs.

 

Also when you get to IX Kitakaze, the IJN gunboats start paying for abnormally longer torpedo reload times.  And the Gunboat with actually decent reload time, VIII Akizuki, is straddled with a mediocre 33kts.

 

I'm not saying you can't have good games in these things.  But personally, guns on a DD, even the heavily buffed IJN 100mm guns, only get you so far.

 

Even for the French Destroyers with their big, powerful 139mm guns that could Citadel Cruisers in certain engagement profiles, the money is on torpedoes.

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7 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Here's the secret, I get just as much or more XP from that damage from the guns as the torp run on the BB.

This.  I don't play much DD at high tier.  But I do have a Friesland.  If I get the DD alone, I do well in xp.  If some dude in a mino or rooster is with me, I do less well.

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Just now, DrHolmes52 said:

This.  I don't play much DD at high tier.  But I do have a Friesland.  If I get the DD alone, I do well in xp.  If some dude in a mino or rooster is with me, I do less well.

You can kill DDs without IJN 100mm, RU 130mm, FR 139mm guns just fine.  There is nothing extraordinary about a DD gunning down another DD.

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8 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Even for the French Destroyers with their big, powerful 139mm guns that could Citadel Cruisers in certain engagement profiles, the money is on torpedoes.

I just explained how that's not the case.  In a DD with serviceable guns you can, and generally do, get very worthwhile payout with gun damage.  I think the Shima is a good example of a more torpedo focused ship.  Shima has decent guns, but not a fast enough reload to make reliable bank with them.  In that case you'll certain want to be thinking torps at the forefront of your XP potential.  On the flip side we have Friesland.  I do really well in my Friesland, and it has no torps.  If I happen to spawn with a French DD next to me, I'll lose the XP race, but so will everyone else.

I'm not disagreeing with that torps are strong, and make you money.  I'm just pointing out that gunning down a DD or yolo torping a BB give the exact same amount of bank.  That's why I try to do both.

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I like how the OP says he plans on limiting his grind at tier VII and one of the first recommendations is how great a tier X ship is.  

I like the USN line between tiers V and VII.  Sturdy ships with decent reload times and they usually mount heavier guns than their IJN counterparts.  Torpedo range is somewhat short, but they do seem to hit harder.

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I too like the mid-tier American DDs the best, and have found them fairly forgiving when I venture into PvP because of their great handling and smoke. That said, I prefer gunboats. If you would prefer to rely on torps, the IJN T7 Akatsuki is OK in Coop. Her guns can deal with bot DDs well enough (slow-firing but hit hard), and then you have three triple launchers to carve up the ships behind them.

Other DDs I enjoy running in Coop are Guepard, Maass, and Jervis. The first two both have decent torps but are gun-focused, and can absolutely shred mid-tier bot cruisers at close range. Jervis' torps are short-ranged and have a long reload time, but you get the British gimmick of being able to launch them individually. Also, with most DDs in Coop, you typically only have enough time to smoke up once, maybe twice, but the British DDs allow you to do that whenever you like, pretty much.

I generally end my grinds at T7 as well. The only silver ships I have at higher tiers are Bismarck, NC, and Iowa. 

Edited by TripleLibby

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Humans usually win the DD vs DD contest because the bots always stay bow-on to the human. That means you get 4-5 guns verses their 1-2. Usually you'll get an engine hit and they end up a sitting target.

Another comment, experience is dependent on the percentage of the ship you sink, so doing 1000 damage to a destroyer is worth more than 1000 to a battleship (xp for sure, not so sure about money).  Since I generally don't memorize hitpoints I wish they included the percentage of damage done in the post-battle breakdown.

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47 minutes ago, Swervenkill said:

Humans usually win the DD vs DD contest because the bots always stay bow-on to the human. That means you get 4-5 guns verses their 1-2. Usually you'll get an engine hit and they end up a sitting target.

Another comment, experience is dependent on the percentage of the ship you sink, so doing 1000 damage to a destroyer is worth more than 1000 to a battleship (xp for sure, not so sure about money).  Since I generally don't memorize hitpoints I wish they included the percentage of damage done in the post-battle breakdown.

Yeah, they'll basically sit still with an engine hit, till you start a fire.  Never want a fire when you're gunning down a destroyer.

I think silver doesn't scale quite the same as XP does.  It seems like you do get more cash for damage to the loli's, but not quite the same as XP.

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1 hour ago, Swervenkill said:

Humans usually win the DD vs DD contest because the bots always stay bow-on to the human. That means you get 4-5 guns verses their 1-2. Usually you'll get an engine hit and they end up a sitting target.

Another comment, experience is dependent on the percentage of the ship you sink, so doing 1000 damage to a destroyer is worth more than 1000 to a battleship (xp for sure, not so sure about money).  Since I generally don't memorize hitpoints I wish they included the percentage of damage done in the post-battle breakdown.

 

53 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Yeah, they'll basically sit still with an engine hit, till you start a fire.  Never want a fire when you're gunning down a destroyer.

I think silver doesn't scale quite the same as XP does.  It seems like you do get more cash for damage to the loli's, but not quite the same as XP.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Base_Earnings

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Economics

https://youtu.be/0_bXHAqLkKc (video link for the above ^ if it doesn't show)

https://youtu.be/KcRF3wNgzRk (video link for the above ^ if it doesn't show)

 

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On 2/8/2022 at 8:55 AM, Swervenkill said:

If you can claim the cap that's worth one ship in experience so it's a good idea to claim it rather than racing across the board only to watch another ship sink the last bot just as you reach gun range. (this applies to all ships, can't remember how many times I've seen people sail out of cap a few seconds before claiming to go hunting)

no kidding?    in coop, too?         or do you split the XP with another ship in the cap?

Edited by trikke

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2 minutes ago, trikke said:

no kidding?    in coop, too?      

Everything is worth less in coop but yes, claiming caps gets you credits and xp.

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3 hours ago, Swervenkill said:

 Usually you'll get an engine hit and they end up a sitting target.

Not generally true considering the instantaneous implementation of damage control available to bots.  You need to score multiple engine crits or saturate them with fire but by that time they're probably already sunk.

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