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Punisher_1

Why are BB's Blind?

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Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

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16 minutes ago, Punisher_1 said:

Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

See you tomorrow ! 

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Notes OPs battle count. Nice try.

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3 hours ago, Punisher_1 said:

Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

Because they sit so far in the rear with the gear, lololol

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4 hours ago, Punisher_1 said:

Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

You think that's bad? Why can the ships spot the aircraft before the aircraft can spot the ships. Is this bizzaro world?

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4 hours ago, Punisher_1 said:

It never made any sense that  I cannot see it from 9km?

Why is it that I can see three-foot-wingspan hawks flying over the trees three miles away but in WOWS a plane can't spot a 300-foot DD at half that distance? It's just one of those mysteries.

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Plane spotting in WWII

image.thumb.png.943a554f264988f212de28730636223e.png

Plane spotting in WOWS

image.thumb.png.3e151857f52612626a2e10846199c06d.png

Edited by Snargfargle
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Because if BBs could see ships much further out than other types DDs would be without clear role, they'd be useless and just get sniped. In real life BBs were balanced by being very expensive and rare, no such balancing facter exists in WoWS so there has to be another way to make people want to play cruisers and destroyers.

Edited by Lert
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5 hours ago, Punisher_1 said:

Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

the game is compressed

 

Battles occur at closer distances then in real life. The ships in game, even the worse sigma ones, have a better hit percentage then real life ships did.

Take a look at those cities and towns on the islands as you sail by, looks a bit out of proportion don't they?

Yes, you may not see a cruiser at 9km, and a BB fades in and out at 13, but in real life, how close did you need to be to see a ship without radar?

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5 hours ago, Punisher_1 said:

Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

That is because it is a game and makes it so BBs need to rely on DDs to spot and have something to shoot at.  If BBs were able to see everything on their own the game would be pretty boring because there would be no point in playing any other class that is not a BB.  

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WOWs made plenty of compromises in order to make destroyers playable ships in front of battleships. Concealment is a game mechanic that does that. IRL if you can see them, they can see you.

I don't think this is even the biggest compromise, torpedo reload probably is.

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1 hour ago, Waylon112 said:

Why do we park in a driveway and drive on a parkway? I'm full of questions.

Why do we fill out a form by filling it in and why does a house burn down as it burns up?

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1 hour ago, SkullCowboy_60 said:

Arcade. Simulator

It does look like someone is finally making a simulator that is not a MMO. 

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Here I thought this was a thread taking a shot at the average BB driver with a title like that... XD

Simply put, because balance.

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14 hours ago, Punisher_1 said:

Since I started playing this game the "mechanics" are questionable at best. 

It never made any sense that a battleship that has 100 foot high observation/conning towers and can see further than any ship IRL also having the best gunnery calculators and radar seem totally non existent in this game. Instead I have to depend on DD's to spot while being massively easy to see. 

Today a enemy cruiser is sitting in the open and I cannot see it from 9km? wth is the garbage? Battleship phasing in and out of view at close range under 13km.  I think that was the last mofukin straw.

lmbo Dude you are playing a game  there are thousands of things, some big and some small, that make it different from reality.  BBs not being able to see far enough is nothing but a small one of the differences.

Edited by eviltane

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9 hours ago, Swervenkill said:

WOWs made plenty of compromises in order to make destroyers playable ships in front of battleships. Concealment is a game mechanic that does that. IRL if you can see them, they can see you.

I don't think this is even the biggest compromise, torpedo reload probably is.

Really? Which BBs in WW2 had the heal button that fixed the hull up like a 6 month repair visit in a port? The put out all fires immediatley button must have been useful IRL too. 

Another good one is the Cvs that manufacture planes and seem to be able to pump them out at a much faster rate than the largest factories in the world at the time.

Radar that actually made the target visible to your gunnery crews is pretty amazing too. Its not a blip on a screen saying "something over there" No its 100% accurately visible.

very high ROF ships like US cruisers that somehow carry 4000 reloads for the guns....

There are a few more.....

You went with torp reload?

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8 minutes ago, Velled said:

Really? Which BBs in WW2 had the heal button that fixed the hull up like a 6 month repair visit in a port? The put out all fires immediatley button must have been useful IRL too.

wwe-supercard-reset-button-stock-photography-restart.jpg

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13 hours ago, HyperFish said:

You think that's bad? Why can the ships spot the aircraft before the aircraft can spot the ships. Is this bizzaro world?

I mean, really, this is hilarious.

 

At the Battle of Midway, a US Carrier air strike group flew to where they thought the Japanese fleet was supposed to be, but nothing was there.  They were flying around deciding where to go until they spotted off into the distance a ship.  The wake left behind by the ship was like a huge "LOOK AT ME I AM HERE" from the skies.  It was Destroyer Arashi, who earlier was hunting an American submarine and was driving her away.  The sub got away and Arashi was on the way back.  The Americans seeing the DD, who had no idea the planes were up there, figured the ship was on the hurry to be somewhere important.  She was going fast after all, burning fuel.  So, they took note of the heading Arashi was going, followed it, and found the Japanese Carriers.

 

And the Japanese had zero idea bout it, it was a complete surprise.

JQll9FB.jpeg

The Japanese had no idea the American SBD Daunltess Dive Bombers were there until they saw them on their dives already.

The Kido Butai's accomplishments in the war:

WZZqnJk.jpeg

... Was undone by Dive Bombers they didn't spot until they were already doing their dive attacks.

20f78d2b607ab427cd1e009b56418245.jpg

2 hours ago, Velled said:

Radar that actually made the target visible to your gunnery crews is pretty amazing too. Its not a blip on a screen saying "something over there" No its 100% accurately visible.

You haven't heard of Radar Gunfire Control Systems.  Navies in WWII had them except for the Italian and Japanese navies.  Even the Kriegsmarine were very firm believers in radar and radar gunfire control systems.

 

Very early in the war, Destroyer HMS Glowworm had a fight with Heavy Cruiser Admiral Hipper.  Glowworm was having the worst end of the fighting and tried to drop smoke to mask herself.  But that failed, Hipper's radar was never fooled and she kept hammering away on the Destroyer, who would sink from this battle.

 

Early in the Pacific War there's actually bits of comedy by the US Navy on not truly believing in the use of their radar for surface combat by the old salts.  Eventually they got around to it and made very heavy use of it.  In "Japanese Destroyer Captain," the author, Capt Hara Tameichi, the only IJN pre-war Destroyer captain to survive WWII, bitterly complained, many times over, about the proliferation of American radar and gunfire control systems.  The extensive training, doctrine of IJN Night Battle was undone by technology.  The IJN's mastery of night combat was lost.

 

Battleship Scharnhorst in December 1943 sortied to attack a British convoy bound for Murmansk, Russia.  However, the convoy was heavily defended, to include a bunch of DDs, Cruisers, and a full fledged BB:  Duke of York.  Scharnhorst was woefully outmatched and tried to disengage but her radar gunfire controls were unluckily destroyed by Duke of York.  It was dark and the Germans knew they were screwed:  They couldn't engage the RN ships at night with any sort of reliability.

Battle_of_North_Cape_26_December_1943_ma

Cut & paste from wikipedia: In the aftermath of the battle, the Kriegsmarine commander, Großadmiral Karl Dönitz remarked, "Surface ships are no longer able to fight without effective radar equipment."

 

In the Battle of Empress Augusta Bay, the US Marines were landed and conducting a campaign.  But the USN knew the IJN would sortie and try to destroy the beachhead.  The Japanese would sortie a strong force and would be thoroughly beaten in this night battle.  The Japanese were getting reliably shelled by the Americans and their radar gunfire control systems.  A line of 4 Cleveland-class CLs were hammering away at the Japanese Cruiser and Destroyer force in the dead of night.  The Americans, knowing the Japanese had no radar / radar gunfire controls and relied heavily on visual spotting, even were dropping smokescreens at night.  The smoke would not hinder the American radar while the visual dependent Japanese would be at an even bigger disadvantage.

In "Japanese Destroyer Captain," the author who was a participant in the battle, noted how the IJN Heavy Cruisers were wildly firing blind into the dark in desperation and futility while American shells had no such difficulty.  The Japanese force retreated in disarray and the author was very surprised the Americans didn't keep on chasing them.  They would have gotten more of them as a bunch of their ships were limping back to Rabaul, and all cohesion of the force was lost.

There was not a single American casualty in that battle.

c2ffa9da5820c4e3b2c307bace1ed933.jpg

Cleveland-class CL, USS Columbia during the battle.

View_forward_from_USS_Columbia_(CL-56)_d

"View forward from USS Columbia during the Battle of Empress Augusta Bay. The ship visible ahead should be USS Cleveland."

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This topic has been informative and entertaining, thus far.  :Smile_popcorn:

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1 hour ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

This topic has been informative and entertaining, thus far.  :Smile_popcorn:

A huge reason why the Americans got the surprise Dive Bomber attacks from the USN Carriers is that the Japanese literally had ZERO SHIPS with air radar with the Kido Butai.

 

From the post-WWII interrogation of IJN Captain Tajiro Aoki, who had the prolific privilege of being the Commanding Officer of Carrier Akagi, starting April 1942.  He was the CO of the ship when she was sunk at Midway.

"Q. Did you have radar on the Akagi?
A. No.

Q. Did any ships at MIDWAY have radar?
A. Yamato, Mutsu and Nagato in the Grand Fleet may have had it. There was no ship at MIDWAY or carrier which had it.

Q. Do you know when they were first installed and first used?
A. I don't know but when I went to the arsenal at KURE, I saw the grids on the Ise and Hyuga. It was in August 1942 after MIDWAY. I supposed that they must have been installed on better ships about then."

===

There were 3 IJN forces at Midway. 

Nagumo commanding the Kido Butai, the 4 Carriers + 2 Kongo-class + Cruiser + DDs that did the actual fighting.

Yamamoto commanding a surface force headlined by Yamato, Nagato, Mutsu + Escorts further west and never got into the fight.

Nobutake commanding a landing force composed of 2 Kongo-class + Cruisers + DDs.

 

Radar for the IJN was excruciatingly rare, even late in the war when they were in a mad scramble trying to get more to their fleet, but it was too late.  For 1942, nope... No ship with the Kido Butai had radar.

4 CVs

2 Kongo-class BBs

2 Tone-class CAs (relied extensively for their seaplanes as scouts)

1 CL

11 DDs

... None of them had air radar.

 

On paper, the IJN felt that they didn't need radar.  Between the many seaplanes they'd have sent out, as well as the Fighter Caps from the CVs, there was little need for radar in their eyes.  But there was a need, especially with the fighter caps dealing with multiple attacks.  There wasn't one big air attack by the Americans, the battle was filled with them.  The Zeroes had to engage multiple times.  The final straw was that a big Torpedo Bomber attack by the TBDs was taking place and the Zeroes piled in to stop them.  That they exactly did, but it meant nothing was up above in the Fighter Cap to spot and engage the CV-borned Dive Bomber attacks.

Air Radar would have given the Japanese plenty of warning.

 

But it's all "Would have, should have, could have" at this point now.  The reality was just brutal.  This is the best breakdown of Midway that I've run into.

 

When you really get down to it, up until the decisive Dive Bomber attack, the Kido Butai had been doing extremely well:

NZCQleJ.jpeg

The Americans lost scores of aircraft and aircrew, they were literally getting massacred.  Not a single hit on any Japanese warship at that point until, "50 dive bombers were approaching overhead, undetected, and unopposed, and coming from two different directions.  Nagumo's luck had finally run out."  In a handful of minutes the Japanese success was turned around into a huge defeat.

 

No radar to better coordinate the use of their own fighter caps.  That cost the Kido Butai 4 CVs.  A deficit that they could not afford with the impending Essex-class Tidal Wave expected to arrive in 1943.

- Last edit:  There was immense rivalry between the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy.  Well, not rivalry, more like hatred.  Early in the Pacific War, the IJN was doing extremely well, gaining a lot of popularity back home in Japan while the army was stuck in China and facing a lot of hardship.  When Tojo heard about the IJN disaster at Midway, he and the army celebrated because it took the IJN down several notches.  Never mind that this disaster for the IJN was a national disaster for Japan, but it was good, as long as the hated navy lost face and was humbled.

 

Fun stuff.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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