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Tzarevitch

Hornet, Yorktown, and beyond

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So, it's been confirmed that Hornet will appear with B-25s as a tactical squadron. To me at least it was obvious that she would appear like this. The Doolittle raid was pretty much all Hornet was famous for. There would be almost no point to putting he in without the B-25s in some form. 

Yorktown is interesting though as they have still not announced anything about her. I still suspect that she is actually the Tech Tree T8 for the second USN CV line, and that is the next line after the Italian DDs. There aren't too many other logical places to put her. They could Ark Royal her and put her in as a T6 premium but that leaves the problem of having no available ship for the tech tree T8 of the other line. They could put Independence there but that doesn't make much sense as it would be a worse Saipan. Independence at T8 also doesn't make sense with the larger and more capable (although older and worse protected) Ranger at T6. 

My guess is the split line will be USS Independence at T6, as she was before the rework. USS Yorktown as the T8. USS Essex as the T10. Essex easily has the aircraft capacity for T10, the only interesting bit is she would be the only T10 CV without an armored flight deck. Hornet, obviously, is the premium for the new (returning) split line. 

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If memory serves, the Essex class were classified as Battle Carriers precisely because they were built to withstand combat, specifically with armored flight decks.  When they were in the game before the rework, they were noted as the first USN Carrier in the line with one.

Edited by Jakob_Knight

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I personally would love to see Yorktown with an improved heal. I mean the fact that it reported to Midway after getting hammered at Coral Sea is legendary.

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6 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

If memory serves, the Essex class were classified as Battle Carriers precisely because they were built to withstand combat, specifically with armored flight decks.  When they were in the game before the rework, they were noted as the first USN Carrier in the line with one.

Essex had armored Hanger Decks, not flight decks.

Midway was the first US ship with an armored flight deck.

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9 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Essex had armored Hanger Decks, not flight decks.

Midway was the first US ship with an armored flight deck.

 

Thanks.  I was going off memory, and it's been a while.

 

Of course, if it's going to be uptiered to T10, WG could always make it a long hull version based on Design 9G, using their paper wizardry to stuff in the extra planes.

 

 

Edited by Jakob_Knight

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44 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Essex had armored Hanger Decks, not flight decks.

Midway was the first US ship with an armored flight deck.

Correct. 😀 the USN didn't consider armored flight decks to be worthwhile - at least not until Midway when they could be made large enough to take the weight without hampering the airgroup. Even then it didn't work well. The Midways were all very heavy and wet ships. 

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1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

So, it's been confirmed that Hornet will appear with B-25s as a tactical squadron. To me at least it was obvious that she would appear like this. The Doolittle raid was pretty much all Hornet was famous for. There would be almost no point to putting he in without the B-25s in some form. 

Yorktown is interesting though as they have still not announced anything about her. I still suspect that she is actually the Tech Tree T8 for the second USN CV line, and that is the next line after the Italian DDs. There aren't too many other logical places to put her. They could Ark Royal her and put her in as a T6 premium but that leaves the problem of having no available ship for the tech tree T8 of the other line. They could put Independence there but that doesn't make much sense as it would be a worse Saipan. Independence at T8 also doesn't make sense with the larger and more capable (although older and worse protected) Ranger at T6. 

My guess is the split line will be USS Independence at T6, as she was before the rework. USS Yorktown as the T8. USS Essex as the T10. Essex easily has the aircraft capacity for T10, the only interesting bit is she would be the only T10 CV without an armored flight deck. Hornet, obviously, is the premium for the new (returning) split line. 

I wonder if Yorktown could be a dockyard ship for the next CV line

But B-25's  someone defrib me again..my heart cant take this lmbo

Edited by xTheCanadianx

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Talking paper ships here: They had some Essex study designs that looked like a enlarged Yorktown class with the dual turret 5"38 on the flight deck as we know them to be, and a Island superstructure that looks like a Yorktown class. The 3 elevators are in the middle of the flight deck and the forward part of the flight deck angles in like the Yorktown's. On the port side flight deck where it widens out it's has angles like the known Essex instead of gradually curving out like the Yorktown's! They were also around 30' shorter in the flight decks, in most designs, a couple were 900' long in the flight decks

Check this site out the one I'm talking about is on the left 2nd blueprint down (scroll down a little): https://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww2/us/essex-class-fleet-aircraft-carriers.php

There's one in there with 6"/47's dual turrets instead of the 5" /38's. Plus the have 8 more single 6"/47's on the corners. DD's and CL's will have fun trying to sneak up on that one with the 6"/47's!!!

I said all of this to basically say they should make a paper Essex pre design as a tier - 6 or 8 with less AA, like the early 1.1 in (Roosevelt piano) and the early .50 cal's like the Clemson's have.

Edited by rustydawg

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I was taking a look at some the stats for the Hornet.  Torp and AP diver bombers only, no rockets.  The good news is the planes have a fast regen time.  A possible down side is there are only 10 planes in the squadrons, 5 planes per attack.  I'm not an avid CV player, but that seems like it will be nearly impossible to ever get off a second strike against anything other some T6 ships.  The torp planes seem to be the Ranger's Devastators, Bombers are Lex's SBD Dauntless (but with AP bombs), both fairly weak planes for T8. 

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3 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I was taking a look at some the stats for the Hornet.  Torp and AP diver bombers only, no rockets.  The good news is the planes have a fast regen time.  A possible down side is there are only 10 planes in the squadrons, 5 planes per attack.  I'm not an avid CV player, but that seems like it will be nearly impossible to ever get off a second strike against anything other some T6 ships.  The torp planes seem to be the Ranger's Devastators, Bombers are Lex's SBD Dauntless (but with AP bombs), both fairly weak planes for T8. 

Those planes would be qccurate for what she had. I think she'll be reliant on the tactical squadron of b-25s to make up the damage. 

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1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

Correct. 😀 the USN didn't consider armored flight decks to be worthwhile - at least not until Midway when they could be made large enough to take the weight without hampering the airgroup. Even then it didn't work well. The Midways were all very heavy and wet ships. 

True, but we definitely got good mileage out of them. Especially Midway herself.

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22 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I was taking a look at some the stats for the Hornet.  Torp and AP diver bombers only, no rockets.  The good news is the planes have a fast regen time.  A possible down side is there are only 10 planes in the squadrons, 5 planes per attack.  I'm not an avid CV player, but that seems like it will be nearly impossible to ever get off a second strike against anything other some T6 ships.  The torp planes seem to be the Ranger's Devastators, Bombers are Lex's SBD Dauntless (but with AP bombs), both fairly weak planes for T8. 

B-25's look to be he bombs

 

Tactical squadron of bombers

Hit points - 4890, cruising speed - 105 knots, size of attacking flight - 6, aircraft per squadron - 6, squadron preparation time - 160 s, detectability range - 10 km, number of aircraft on deck - 6.
Bombs in payload - 4, bomb type - HE, maximum bomb dammage - 7300, armor penetration - 42 mm, chance to cause fire – 41 %.

 

Edited by xTheCanadianx

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23 minutes ago, xTheCanadianx said:

B-25's look to be he bombs

Yeah, seems they don't want you stacking DoT too easily.  The B-25s are slow, but have a beefy HP.  The bombs have low pen and fire chance.  The upside is the fast cool down.

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3 hours ago, Jakob_Knight said:

If memory serves, the Essex class were classified as Battle Carriers

I LIKE IT. I can see it already....

WG: "Captains, please welcome our new secondary tech tree branch for the USN: Battle Carriers. These new carriers are well armored, and in addition, they carry Tactical Squadrons."

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54 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I was taking a look at some the stats for the Hornet.  Torp and AP diver bombers only, no rockets.  The good news is the planes have a fast regen time.  A possible down side is there are only 10 planes in the squadrons, 5 planes per attack.  I'm not an avid CV player, but that seems like it will be nearly impossible to ever get off a second strike against anything other some T6 ships.  The torp planes seem to be the Ranger's Devastators, Bombers are Lex's SBD Dauntless (but with AP bombs), both fairly weak planes for T8. 

I'm no CV player but the stats on Hornet are not that bad, it looks like a kind of hybrid compromise between the RU and traditional concepts. Max of 2 strikes with decent alpha upfront and the choice of pushing for a second strike if the AA is poor or save the planes in you are going against strong AA, I kinda like it. In any case it looks like very focused on spamming B-25s (its speacial sauce after all), imo it will depend on how dense is the bomb saturation in relation with the reticle... 24 bombs are no joke if the reticle is "ship" size. This could be similar to a hand guided Dutch Airstrike.

Otoh, maybe it is me but those Supercarriers don't look too Super imo. Just 2 base plane types, nothing really extraordinary about them and the Tacticals look underwhelming too. 

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5 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

I'm no CV player but the stats on Hornet are not that bad, it looks like a kind of hybrid compromise between the RU and traditional concepts. Max of 2 strikes with decent alpha upfront and the choice of pushing for a second strike if the AA is poor or save the planes in you are going against strong AA, I kinda like it. In any case it looks like very focused on spamming B-25s (its speacial sauce after all), imo it will depend on how dense is the bomb saturation in relation with the reticle... 24 bombs are no joke if the reticle is "ship" size. This could be similar to a hand guided Dutch Airstrike.

Otoh, maybe it is me but those Supercarriers don't look too Super imo. Just 2 base plane types, nothing really extraordinary about them and the Tacticals look underwhelming too. 

Hornet's standard planes are definitely on the weak side for T8. She's using a combo of Ranger's planes (TBs) and stock Lexington planes (DBs). That's a bit on the weak side especially for a CV which will have to face T10 AA. I think the weak standard planes are intended to be counterbalanced by her having the tactical strike of B-25s which I am guessing will hit fairly hard but are available infrequently. Based on what the tactical strike planes seem like from the video on the USS United States, these seem more like the planes that Ise, Tone, and Kearsarge use than those used by the Dutch cruiser airstrike in that they are controllable. 

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Look up USS Franklin CV-13 to see how well these take a hit. No Essex class cv's were lost in WW2, but the Franklin was essentially removed from the war by Japan.

 

 

Edited by Gemlin

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27 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

I think the weak standard planes are intended to be counterbalanced by her having the tactical strike of B-25s which I am guessing will hit fairly hard but are available infrequently. 

The cd is actually not that high. A 160s cd means you can use them every other strike once they become available since your average strike cycle is ~90s, although given that Hornet is effectively a pseudo RU CV strike execution may be faster than normal.

The problem with Hornet is a potential lack of tactical flexibility. Being equipped with AP bombs and no rockets means there is likely no means to effectively engage DDs. I can't imagine the B-25s being any good at that either. You might be able to cross torp them if the torp dispersion is good but that will run into issues against higher DPS. Effectively single attack runs also means maneuvers to mitigate/negate damage are going to be more potent.

This may be fine from a balancing perspective but unfortunately the best CVs are jack of all trades, masters of all and the competition at T8 is especially fierce.

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Have long pined for Yorktown's inclusion in the game...  Sad that nothing cooking for it yet?     However kind of like the gimmick treatment for Hornet.   T8 is becoming a very crowded premium CV market..   Here's hoping Yorktown gets placed into a US CV tech tree split..  Bogue, Independence and a long forgotten Alpha T-10 Essex have already been modeled and are sitting there in files somewhere.      Drop Yorktown in there somewhere and a split tree is born.      

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7 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

I have a lot of interest in Hornet, trying to see how WG was going to implement her.  As per WG:

"One of the Yorktown-class aircraft carriers — successful, well-balanced ships that defined the development of aircraft carriers in the US Navy in the 1940s. 

The ship's main strike force is torpedo bombers, similar to Ranger's researchable ones, and bombers similar to the stock ones of Lexington, but armed with AP bombs. Hornet's bombers and torpedo bombers have a large number of planes per squadron and per attacking flight.

The key feature of Hornet is the availability of a tactical squadron of bombers. It serves as an auxiliary weapon and consists of a single attacking flight, which takes a significant time to prepare. The squadron doesn't return to the carrier's deck after the attack, and is restored by the whole flight at once. 

The ship's tactical squadron consists of powerful B-25 bombers which Hornet carried historically for the Doolittle raid. The squadron has a large attacking flight size and many bombs per plane."

 

So like WG did a proper 1942 fitting for Hornet, and not do what they did to Kaga when they moved her to Tier VIII with the CV Rebork.  WG gave Kaga 1944 aircraft, which was, and still is stupid, because she sank in 1942.  But anyways, what are the squadron values for Hornet?  Again, as per WG:

"Standard squadrons

Torpedo bombers

Hit points - 1710, cruising speed - 112.0 knots, size of attacking flight - 5, aircraft per squadron - 10, aircraft restoration time - 62 s, detectability range - 10.0 km, number of aircraft on deck - 20.
Torpedoes in payload - 1, maximum torpedo damage - 5,567, aerial speed - 35.0 knots, torpedo range - 3 km, torpedo arming distance 344 m.

Dive bombers

Hit points - 1890, cruising speed - 122.0 knots, size of attacking flight - 5, aircraft per squadron - 10, aircraft restoration time - 62 s, detectability range - 10.0 km, number of aircraft on deck - 20.
Bombs in payload - 1, bomb type - AP, maximum bomb damage - 3600.

Tactical squadron of bombers

Hit points - 4890, cruising speed - 105 knots, size of attacking flight - 6, aircraft per squadron - 6, squadron preparation time - 160 s, detectability range - 10 km, number of aircraft on deck - 6.
Bombs in payload - 4, bomb type - HE, maximum bomb dammage - 7300, armor penetration - 42 mm, chance to cause fire – 41 %."

 

No Attack Aircraft, no rockets.  TBs, AP Bombers, and B-25 call ins are what she has.

Because WG referenced Ranger (a Tier VI CV) as the foundation for VIII Hornet's squadrons, here's Ranger in Fitting Tool.  Here's Tier VIII Lexington.  Why Lexington?

Dive Bombers:  Hornet will be using SBD Dauntless as the dive bomber (speed, HP match), which is what she had in 1942 up to the time she sank late that year.  SBDs are Lexington's stock DBs.

Torpedo Bombers:  The HP pool and speeds match up with Tier VI Ranger's upgraded TBD Devastators.  So, WG went historically correct by having period appropriate TBD Devastators in early war, as the USN was still using a lot of the Devastators at that point.  The TBF Avengers were starting to enter service by the time Midway in mid-1942 happened.  Hornet would get Avengers eventually, but later that year for Guadalcanal where she'd sink.

 

I wanted to compare the squadron restoration times.  Hornet's TB & DB squads have a 62 seconds timer, which is pretty quick.  Tactical Squadron of Bombers (B-25s) - 160 seconds

In contrast:

Tech Tree Lexington

Upgraded SB2C Helldiver DBs - 76 seconds.

Upgraded SB2C Helldiver DBs - 80 seconds.

Premium Enterprise, who has a reputation for weaker planes but fast reloads.

SB2C Helldiver DBs - 76 seconds

TBF Avenger TBs - 60 seconds

 

Remember that Hornet's bombers are of lower quality.  The reloads will be quick because her planes are going to drop fast.

 

Normally I could lament there's no rockets, but remembering what WG did to Rockets to begin with, that's probably a good thing Hornet doesn't have them.  Chkalov and Max Immelman eschewed rockets altogether also, and probably for the better.

phpnfIKjI

1942_04_18_cv8_b.jpg

Below, Hornet and her sister Enterprise during the Doolittle Raid.

1942_04_19_cv8_cv6_b_from_slc.jpg

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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7 hours ago, JediMasterDraco said:

True, but we definitely got good mileage out of them. Especially Midway herself.

The USN definitely got whatever value they could out of the old Essex and Midway-class CVs.  Midway was commissioned in 1945, just missing WWII by weeks.  She made it for Desert Storm in the early 1990s.

cover.jpg

===

a-port-view-of-ships-comprising-battle-f

"A port view of ships comprising Battle Force Zulu on their way back to the U.S. after participating in Operation Desert Storm. They are the aircraft carriers USS MIDWAY (CV-41), USS RANGER (CV-61), USS AMERICA (CV-66) and the USS THEODORE ROOSEVELT (CVN-71) and the guided missile cruisers USS BUNKER HILL (CG-52), USS LEYTE GULF (CG-55) and the USS NORMANDY (CG-60)"

 

September 1945.

USS_Midway_(CVB-41)_after_commissioning.

1965.

USS_Midway_(CVA-41)_operating_in_the_Sou

1972.

1024px-USS_Midway_(CVA-41)_overhead_view

Departing Yokosuka on her final cruise, 1991.  She'll be decommissioned in April 1992.

1920px-USS_Midway_(CV-41)_leaving_Yokosu

 

2021.

MidwayBridge.jpg

I lived in San Diego for almost 20 years, I've visited her multiple times.

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21 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The USN definitely got whatever value they could out of the old Essex and Midway-class CVs.  Midway was commissioned in 1945, just missing WWII by weeks.  She made it for Desert Storm in the early 1990s.

Oh I’m well aware. My father flew Combat Search and Rescue off her during the war.

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