Dutch Project 1047

[Azumazi]

So lately with the talk of Battle Cruisers, I remembered when I was a kid since I loved German ships of a Dutch design that was being co-op built in Germany right before Germany invaded the Netherlands. So I had to go do some research to find out what ship it was, and I found it finally.

 

The Project 1047, also known as Design 1047.

 

During WW1, the Dutch were left with antiquated ships, they had designed proposals for new dreadnought style ships in 1913, but they never came to bare due to the war between Britain and Germany, as they were to be produced in England first and the remaining ships to be built in the Netherlands. This same issue also occurred with the Spanish and their new ship programs. So about 1937, through intelligence and build up in the Pacific, they came to the conclusion that Japan was preparing to attack the US and Britain after its victories in China, this would leave their East Indies colonies exposed and they needed vessels to defend them. They figured with Britain and the US's fleets, Japan would only have minor craft such as Cruisers, Destroyers, and support vessels to make landings for their colonies. So over a few years they decided they wanted to design and built a Battlecruiser to combat those ships along with their own light cruisers.

 

They faced a huge issue, they hadn't designed a capital ship in nearly 4 decades and were woefully inadequate in the technologies needed. Basically, they did what some people in these forums would do, go research what you could in declassified information and tried to design a ship with what you could find. In 1939 they went to Germany for assistance on their designs. Due to politics and as usual unable to see eye to eye, they received little assistance and decided to design it without their help. The first plans, lets just say, were down right pathetic. It resembled more or less a pre jutland style ship void of deck armor, the belt scheme was terrible, overall it was a pretty bad sight.

 

So in mid 1940, they go back to Germany and ask for help again. This time promising if they can get the designs on the Scharnhorst they will order all parts needed and have them built in Germany guaranteeing all payment and production for their first ship, after which they would build the remaining ships through lease in their own country. Instead Germany gives them details and designs of battle cruiser concepts and protection schemes which at least helps the Dutch out. The Dutch in turn start ordering up their armament for their main turrets and secondaries from Krupp. They were to be roughly the same 11.1 inch main guns the Scharnhorst had, however with a main elevation of 45 degrees. these were to be 3 guns in 3 turrets. She was also to have 12 120mm dual purpose guns in dual mounts. She was going to have a large assortment of 40mm bofors on her (Estimated between 14 and 20 in dual mounts) along with 8-14 20mm Hispano Suiza guns. Due to the designs not being complete, it is unknown where they would have been on the ship for the 40mm and 20mm guns.

 

They went back, started their design again, and ran into another problem. Torpedo protection. They had to go back to Germany and requested assistance again, but ran into a snag with their contact. So they decided to go to Italy instead. Now they couldn't get exact designs on the Roma while she was being built, but the Italians did give them more plans of the Scharnhorst which they had with their own cooperation with the Germans. So the Dutch being happy with that went back and designed the power plants, underwater protection and with some last details in Feb of 1940, they go back to Germany with their design 1047 and request assistance on what else would be needed with the design, in April they come up with a solution and begin ordering parts needed for their boilers, turbines, and drive shafts. Unfortunately with the invasion of the Netherlands by Germany, the ships are never built. The guns were partially made as Krupp was still producing them right up till the invasion along with the boilers and turbines.

 

((References http://www.avalanche...tchCruisers.php , and Garzke, William H. Battleships: Axis and Neutral battleships in World War II))

 

Her stats (What is known of her last April 1940 design)

Size

Length:  241m

Beam:  31m

Draft:  8m

Displacement

27560 Long tons

Armament

Armament:  3x3 11.1 Inch (283mm) guns

6x2 120 mm Bofors at 45 caliber

14-20  40 mm Bofors in dual config

8-14  20 mm Hispano Suiza in single mounts or Oerlikon guns (changed in design twice)

Speed

160000-180000 shp able to produce around 33-34 knots of speed.

Armor

Belt: 225mm primary belt with a secondary upper belt of 40mm

Deck: Multi-deck setup with 20mm upper deck, 100mm primary deck, and a 15mm anti-splinter deck.

Anti-torpedo: She had bulge designed attacked to the tapered part of her lower belt running to the bottom of the hull starting about 1.5m under the water line. It had a 40mm armored bulkhead behind the bulge.

Primary Barbettes: 200-250mm

Secondary Barbettes: 60-75mm

Secondary Turrets: 80mm front, 150mm roof, 50mm sides/rear (Per order to Krupp)

 

There are a few other parts of the armor that is known, but what isn't known is the armor of the turrets for the main turrets.

 

Aircraft

2 scouts and 2 fighters.

 

[Super_Dreadnought]

Ah the Dutch. I've always had a soft spot for them for their role of plucky underdogs throughout history, and have often wondered where they potentially could have gone. Afterall they were cash rich with the 1st stock exchange, and the first fully capitalist society. And had a proud maritine history between the 17th and late 18th century with one of the best fleets in Europe, colonising far flung places like New York, Cape Town, the Caribbean, and Indonesia. Every time I play the Dutch in the grand stratgey game Europa Universalis III, I always end up with a massive colonial empire and fleet.

 

Irl it was their rotten luck to be sandwiched between France, Germany, and out on the seas by Britain who between them continuously screwed the Netherlands over. Perhaps if a few things had gone a little more in their favour we would be talking about a Dutch tech tree.

 

 

Imho, in a way it was a blessing in disguise (if you can call being invaded by Germany and Japan a blessing) that Project 1047 was never built. I strongly suspect that these three Dutch battlecruisers would have been turn to scrap by the IJN very very quickly with the loss of thousands of lives.

[Azumazi]

Well, it also depends, because they expected to have the first one finished by earliest 1943, with 1944 bringing the other 2 of the total of 3 out. By that point in the war who knows, as the US had pushed Japan a good ways back, but we are also talking what if scenarios.

[xt828]

A larger and somewhat more detailed picture, with technical information, though sadly in Italian:

 

[Azumazi]

Oh good find, not surprising considering they took it to the Italians as well as the Germans hehe. But, showing the armor scheme is a good thing as well.

[Azumazi]

You know the more I think about it and look at that ship design, it actually was quite well done. I might see about doing a color picture of it since that looks like a fun ship to do.

[JeeWeeJ]

:amazed:

How could i have missed this topic?!?!? (yes, slight necro, i know)

 

Anyway, a few remarks: as far as i know the dreadnoughts of the 1913 project were actually expected to be built in Germany. Up until the very end it was a race between a Vickers design, a Krupp-Germaniawerf design and a Blohm & Voss design, with the Krupp design being the most likely to be chosen due to the Netherlands having close ties with the German empire at that time AND Krupp was involved from the beginning of the project unlike the other contestants. (And we didn't like the Brits much during that period due to the boer wars in Africa, with a lot of the Boers being of Dutch origin)

 

Also, the Netherlands hasn't built a capital ship if dreadnought/battlecruiser size...ever! Which is why we had to ask foreign powers to help in the design AND construction of the things, as we also lacked a constructionyard of the size required. Biggest thing we built up to that point were armored cruisers and the light cruisers of the Eendracht class (which were still under construction at that point).

 

As a point of pride: the project 1047 is generally considered to be a superior design when compared to the Scharnhorst on pretty much everything except armor. And unlike other paper designs, these things were to be actually built. (so no works of imagination) They wouldn't have been able to repell the Japanese, but at the very least they'd have given the IJN's heavy cruisers something to think about before going to battle. (can you imagine the battle of the Java sea with one or two of these things around?)

 

Anyway, a loooooong time ago i made a post about these projects HERE. And very extensive information about the Dutch dreadnought and battlecruiser projects (including blueprints) can be found HERE (dreads) and HERE (BC)

 

The question of where we Dutchies "went wrong" is an interesting one. Ofcourse there is the thing about the size of the Netherlands. It's tiny when compared to the big powers around us. And those big powers weren't very friendly towards us: 5 wars with England (of which we won two, one draw and two losses), a looooong war with Spain, multiple wars with France etc etc. At one point we were at war with seven (!!!!) nations at once.

Then there is the thing with why we did things: we didn't build colonies (like New York) to "expand our empire" or for the glory of God or whatever, we mostly did that for one reason: MONEY! Which is why most colonies (with the exception of the Dutch Indies, the Dutch Antilles and Suriname) were coastal towns in areas rich in certain resources or strategic positions (like Cape Town in South Africa). Also, we didn't have the manpower to control a huge empire like Britain did.

 

And when Britain won the 4th Anglo-Dutch war it meant we lost control of a lot of our traderoutes, losing a lot of profit, then came some turmoil due to the French revolution (which resulted in the Netherlands being annexed by the French), then some pretty weak leaders who let the Belgians secede from the newly formed Kingdom of the Netherlands, more pacifists in power and when they FINALLY realised that we needed a bigger navy (project 1913)...it was too late.

 

But even thoug the Dutch navy during WW2 was woefully underarmed, at least it went down fighting! (90% of the fleet was destroyed during fleet actions, Dutch subs had the highest kill/loss ratio at the beginning of the pacific war of all nations) So, yeah, in the 500 years (exact this year) that our navy has been going at it we've been the underdog for most of the time...but that hasn't held us back from getting into fights! :playing:

[Azumazi]

Well the good thing is from how I take Teit's comment, we might at the very least see them as premiums to be used by Germany. Which in a few ways makes sense from the picture overall. Personally I think they look rather good and it would be a fun ship to play.

[anonym_s4TCbLNuhWyC]

Hmmm if built They would be rather pretty ships judging from that picture... (I love portholes) But 11 inches is a bit small by my standards but not tiny :)

I rather use a 4096 inch rapid fire cannon  :trollface:

[Azumazi]

In all honesty Tankwarhammer, the 1047 embodied exactly what many considered the Battle cruiser's job to truly be, they were designing them to combat the Japanese expansive cruiser fleets which they saw would be used to engage their colonies and interests abroad. The guns were perfect for that task, and the armor would help insure them to be able to survive their 20cm gun fire while also having good under armor for torpedo protection and bombs from Japan's ever growing Naval air wing.

 

If Germany had ignored invading the Netherlands and went up against Russia ignoring them there was pretty much a 100% chance that the Dutch would have at the very least had the hull down and commissioned by 41-2 while getting it fitted out. It's one of those very possible could have been scenarios.

[JeeWeeJ]

Azumazi, on 09 April 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

In all honesty Tankwarhammer, the 1047 embodied exactly what many considered the Battle cruiser's job to truly be, they were designing them to combat the Japanese expansive cruiser fleets which they saw would be used to engage their colonies and interests abroad. The guns were perfect for that task, and the armor would help insure them to be able to survive their 20cm gun fire while also having good under armor for torpedo protection and bombs from Japan's ever growing Naval air wing.

If Germany had ignored invading the Netherlands and went up against Russia ignoring them there was pretty much a 100% chance that the Dutch would have at the very least had the hull down and commissioned by 41-2 while getting it fitted out. It's one of those very possible could have been scenarios.

Agreed, this is a ship which stayed true to the "heavier than faster, faster than heavier" rule. It could easily outgun the Japanese heavy cruisers with those nine 11" guns and would have been 5 knots faster than the Kongo's which were in the area of the Dutch Indies. And don't forget: these are German guns we're talking about. What they lacked in bore they made up in rate of fire and had very good penetration for their size. (just look at what the Deutschland class and Scharnhorst class could do with them and how they scared the bejeezus out of the Royal Navy) Those long lances might still be a problem, but at least she'd be able to soak up one or two of those.

However, i doubt they would have been built if the war started in 1939 and the Germans ignored the Netherlands for the very simple reason that they would have been built entirely in Germany as the Dutch lacked a big enough shipyard. I'm willing to bet that they would have been confiscated by the Kriegsmarine, just like the Royal Navy confiscated the Agincourt during WW1 (which was a ship ordered and paid by Brazil).

And i'd love to see this ship and others like the Eendracht class light cruisers and the Gerard Callenburgh class destroyers as German premiums (as ships of these classes were confiscated by the Germans while they were still under construction). Even though my fellow Dutchies might not agree with me on this one. :hiding:  Still, if they make it in as premiums, they are a instabuy for me!

[Wake_Island]

I never knew such a ship design existed. Great find!

[Azumazi]

JeeWeeJ, on 09 April 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

Agreed, this is a ship which stayed true to the "heavier than faster, faster than heavier" rule. It could easily outgun the Japanese heavy cruisers with those nine 11" guns and would have been 5 knots faster than the Kongo's which were in the area of the Dutch Indies. And don't forget: these are German guns we're talking about. What they lacked in bore they made up in rate of fire and had very good penetration for their size. (just look at what the Deutschland class and Scharnhorst class could do with them and how they scared the bejeezus out of the Royal Navy) Those long lances might still be a problem, but at least she'd be able to soak up one or two of those.

However, i doubt they would have been built if the war started in 1939 and the Germans ignored the Netherlands for the very simple reason that they would have been built entirely in Germany as the Dutch lacked a big enough shipyard. I'm willing to bet that they would have been confiscated by the Kriegsmarine, just like the Royal Navy confiscated the Agincourt during WW1 (which was a ship ordered and paid by Brazil).

And i'd love to see this ship and others like the Eendracht class light cruisers and the Gerard Callenburgh class destroyers as German premiums (as ships of these classes were confiscated by the Germans while they were still under construction). Even though my fellow Dutchies might not agree with me on this one. :hiding:  Still, if they make it in as premiums, they are a instabuy for me!

If I'm not mistaken and correct me if I am wrong on this, they were laying the hull down in the Netherlands but ordering a lot of parts for her from Germany, as they had already made a drydock large enough to build the ship (If I'm not mistaken the German's used that dry dock a few times to work on certain damaged capital ships). So what I feel would have happened is they would have ordered certain parts from them, and the others attempted on their own. What I do think would have happened is that it most likely if say different events went down, they would have had a ship hull laid down, machinery in it, directors, a barbette...and they would have completed one gun and sent it over and basically told the Dutch "Figure it out". due to the war with the Soviet union. In that regards it probably wouldn't have been finished until 1945 just because they would have to make a foundry just for the guns. Now, I could be wrong, as they seemed VERY determined to do this on their own as much as possible. If nothing more than for their National Pride. I place that in Plural because Norway and many other nations in the area had a strong sense of duty but felt a lot had been lost over time. They very well might have been able to build it all on their own thanks in part to the *wink wink* Italians, and they probably could have *cough* got the rest of the plans by say "Hey Germany, we see your Scharnhorst is damaged, we have a spare Dry Dock you can rent to repair it to get back home, but due to the Neutrality Act you can only use it for 48 hours. To help out our engineers can help speed up those repairs to make her capable of going on her own power back to home." Go in, do a bit of bribing to inspect her, get some more ideas, and bam voila, they have the plans they need to finish their own ship.

That is also counting that Germany doesn't pull a certain tactic they did with another certain country to have its battleship guns open up on that port while they start the war...

[JeeWeeJ]

Well, just did a quick check on the whole construction thing...and i stand pretty much corrected. Netherlandsnavy.nl states that "Cost estimates were to be provided for the construction of 2 or 3 battlecruisers, including an analysis of the personnel consequences, and it was to be investigated if the ships could be constructed in Dutch shipyards."

 

And wikipedia (even though not the most reliable of sources) states: "The authorization of large battlecruisers meant that a new 40,000-ton floating dock would be built and many improvements to their planned base in the East Indies, the naval yard in Soerabaya, would begin. To handle the construction of such a ship, a new 250 m (820 ft) building way was begun by the Netherlands Construction Company, Ltd.."

 

So you could very well be right!

 

And i don't think the Dutch would build their own foundry to build the remaining guns in your "what if" scenario. It would be much more likely (and Eyeless is gonna love this) that we'd turn to our Swedish friends at Bofors to craft us some nice 11" guns, as pretty much all larger Dutch warships were armed with various kinds of Bofors guns (getting them from the UK would be unlikely, but still possible) and they had already built large bore guns for their Swedish coastal battleships. It might have required to redesign the turrets/magazines etc. but that would probably have been easier than building the guns at home due to a severe lack of experience building anything bigger than field artillery. Funny thing though, it seems that the 11" guns are NOT the same as those used on the Scharnhorst. What i read HERE (in table three) is that the 1047 was to use 11"/50cal guns while the Scharnhorst used 11"/54.5 cal. The caliber seems to have been mentioned only once in the design of 1939 with no mention of it in later designs, and it might have changed later. Anyway, when it comes to constructing equipment, i think the guns and maybe the thick armor plates might be the only thing (construction wise) we would have needed help with, the rest could be built locally. Engines were to be built at Werkspoor, fire control was to be supplied by Hazemeyer (now Thales Netherlands) and it is safe to assume that Philips was to supply the electronical equipment, just like it had done on other Dutch ships.

 

So, yes, it is quite likely we'd be able to finish these ships ourselves..maybe not as fast and maybe with somewhat lesser specs, but there was enough shipbuilding knowhow to get the job done. All they'd need was a proper design and the right equipment/materials. And there are indeed less...legal...ways of getting the information needed.

 

All we needed was time.

 

And yeah, having Scharnhorst open up in the harbour of Rotterdam (where most large ships are built in the Netherlands) would be bad...even though it would have been a MAJOR gamble on the German side, given that the Dutch navy (especially the submarine branch) was a bit more capable than the Polish one. (no disrespect meant to the Polish ofcourse, we just had more modern subs)

 

But that city didn't fare any better in real life, so i don't think a whole lot would have changed..

[anonym_s4TCbLNuhWyC]

Azumazi, on 09 April 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

In all honesty Tankwarhammer, the 1047 embodied exactly what many considered the Battle cruiser's job to truly be, they were designing them to combat the Japanese expansive cruiser fleets which they saw would be used to engage their colonies and interests abroad. The guns were perfect for that task, and the armor would help insure them to be able to survive their 20cm gun fire while also having good under armor for torpedo protection and bombs from Japan's ever growing Naval air wing.

If Germany had ignored invading the Netherlands and went up against Russia ignoring them there was pretty much a 100% chance that the Dutch would have at the very least had the hull down and commissioned by 41-2 while getting it fitted out. It's one of those very possible could have been scenarios.

Agreed E_E

[Azumazi]

Hmm, I didn't think about the 11'' gun part going with Bofors in Sweden, but it would make sense since they would have most likely been fitted with a lot of 40mm Bofors knowing how the Japanese would have attempted anything and everything under the sun to bomb that vessel and its 2 sisters.

[xt828]

I'd have a couple of concerns about the Swedish main armament option.  Firstly, they're a wee bit bigger - NavWeaps has them at 283mm rather than 280 - but may be lighter - the 280/54.5 were over 53t, while the Swedish guns were only 43t, which I would imagine would impact the calculations a bit.  Secondly, they're old - the Sverige class was laid down before the First World War, and so they aren't modern technology - there's no guarantee that the Swedes would share their improved shell design.  Lastly, and perhaps most significantly, they seem to have taken a very long time to build, and the equipment used to build them hasn't been used since - NavWeaps suggests a five year gap between design and service, and the last Sverige was launched in 1922.  Did Bofors even still have the facilities to produce such guns?  I can't recall them being involved in main armament proposals for any of the interwar designs which could have featured them, which is suggestive.

[JeeWeeJ]

Well, the thing is, if we go with the scenario with WW2 happening but Dutch neutrality being respected, all the Dutch could turn to was to another neutral nation. If they'd order guns from France or the UK, Germany might see that as a hostile act and invade. If they'd keep Germany to their contract (which is an option, as Germany did supply Finland with tanks during WW2) the allies might see the Dutch as a German ally and attack (just like the Fins were seen as friends of Germany), same goes for Italy as it was a Geman ally. This is ignoring the fact that a lot of countries involved in the war simply ignored international orders when the war started.

 

So that doesn't leave a whole lot of options. The Dutch did not have the knowhow nor the facilities to build such guns. And even if they'd have a go at it themselves it would take years to build the facilities, get the knowledge how to design/construct them through more or less (il)legal means and would have to spend quite some time perfecting the design (as i doubt the Germans would be willing to share the design with a neutral power). So as far as i know that only leaves Bofors OR (big if here) they could turn to the US while they were still neutral. But as Hitler saw the Americans as a more-or-less hostile power from the beginning i don't think he'd like the Dutch to go shopping there for big weapons.

 

What helps in the case of Bofors is that the Dutch navy was more or less a regular customer, already having ordered 14 6" guns and a large number of 40mm AA guns for the Eendracht class light cruisers. They would be an odd weapons manufacturer if they'd turn down a regular customer willing to spend a LOT of money on big guns. They might have to dust off some old designs and modify them to Dutch specifications (as they did for the 6" guns) but i do think they'd be able to do it. They might even been able to charge outrageous prices if they knew they'd be the only manufacturer (that i know of) the Dutch could turn to.

 

Or am i missing something here??

[xt828]

I'd say that the thing which you may have missed is how long it takes to build battleship/battlecruiser-sized artillery - a year or more.  I don't doubt the Swedes would be the most likely alternative for the Dutch to turn to in this WW2 with Dutch neutrality scenario, but I'm saying that IMO the Dutch would, quite possibly, have three battlecruisers without a main armament by the time the Japanese declare war.  

 

Consider the timeline - until September 1939, the Dutch intend to buy the guns from Germany, and afaik have no alternative supply plans.  WW2 breaks out, and Germany ceases to be an option for supplying the main artillery of the ships, so the Dutch start shopping around, and most likely end up going to Bofors - but contract negotiations aren't instant, and both the German and Swedish governments will most likely get involved, dragging it out.  Bofors haven't made a gun this size for 17 years, and back when they were making them, they took several years to produce.  Assuming that everything else goes roughly as historically, and Japan declares war on everyone in December 1941, the Dutch are possibly still without a main armament as the guns may not have been finished yet.  

 

My guide here is that it took Bethlehem Steel a year to produce 14" guns in 1913/14, but that was in a foundry which had an active production run of guns that big, rather than having lain fallow for the better part of two decades - given that length of time, and the fact that the Great Depression happened in the interim, there's every possibility that the skilled workers and overseers have retired, been fired, or even have emigrated elsewhere or died.  The facilities to make the guns - which include very complex pits in which the guns are heated and tempered standing vertically underground - may have been sold off or have fallen into disrepair.  The cost is almost certainly going to be well above that projected for buying from the Germans, and given interwar Dutch budgetary concerns, and I would imagine a sudden pressing desire to upgrade their army, construction may be slowed or even halted until funds are available.

 

An interesting side note here - if the Dutch have the hulls completed without main armament, and they join with the Allies against the Japanese, I could see the ships, in either a US or Dutch yard, getting made over into quite effective CVs - 34 knots is nothing to sneeze at, and if they went with American design practices they could have a respectable airfleet.

[JeeWeeJ]

Oh, i totally agree that it would take quite some time before those guns (and modified turrets) would be ready. However, as stated before, i don't think there would be a proper alternative if they go ahead with the BC design.

Converting them to carriers would be interesting though! I've also seen some drawings of a 1047 converted into a hybrid carrier, but i'm not convinced if those plans actually exsisted. It's a nice thought though.

[xt828]

I was having another think about this, and there is another option for wartime completion, though it's a bit of a long shot - and very dependent on how major the changes would have to be to fit 12" guns.  The Soviet battleship Frunze, formerly Poltava, was hulked in preparation for scrapping in 1935.  She still had at least six guns on her as after the war two turrets were dismounted for use as a shore battery in Sevastopol.

 

I haven't seen those hybrid designs, but if the ships are sans main armament then I think the Americans would suggest they be razeed and completely rebuilt as carriers.  They probably wouldn't make it into service until late 1942, but they'd be fast enough to stay with the main fleet units, so they'd probably get a solid amount of use.

[Spartanpanzer07]

Very interesting ship never quite heard of it