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Ardwulf

Subs are now useless

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How much time have people spent trying to learn them? I played a rental sub once and had no clue what I was doing. But it seemed like it had potential to be cool?

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I play subs.  I like the ‘hunting’ in a sub.  I try to target island-camping cruisers, and do captures and spotting. 
In the game right now subs are not permanent.  You can only get them 7 days, then you have to earn them again.  So they ebb and flow. I’ll soon earn them back again, then I’ll be hunting again.  

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8 hours ago, tm63au said:

Submarine action in Palawan Passage (23 October 1944)[edit]

 

8 hours ago, tm63au said:

Battle of Convoy Hi-81.

Cute, but neither of these involved surface ships on both sides.

Doesn't in anyway change my statement that submarines cannot be made to resemble historic submarines, be exciting, fun to play, and fun to play against.

They don't feel like slow, stealthy hunters that play cat and mouse with destroyers.

"Exciting" and "submarine" don't belong in the same sentence, unless something has gone horribly wrong on board the submarine, at which point the submarines life is now, "very short and exciting".

 

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16 hours ago, Ardwulf said:

They certainly could be. 

The problem here is twofold. In real life, they were not direct participants in major surface actions in the way the game wants to portray. That's just not how they worked. They caught ships in transit in ambushes at relatively slow speeds, ideally without ever being detected. That doesn't make for terribly compelling gameplay. The problem is that the gameplay angle WG went for, and really the only one available, was what they already built Destroyers to do, be sneaky and hit things with big torpedo alpha damage. They really just don't have a fundamental place in the game that isn't already covered, and we end up with a bunch of hamifsted forced mechanics and gimmicks to make them sort of work, but they never feel quite right, stuff like needing specialized ASW weapons/consumables that are literally pointless and serve no purpose if there is no submerged sub in the game.

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

 

Cute, but neither of these involved surface ships on both sides.

Doesn't in anyway change my statement that submarines cannot be made to resemble historic submarines, be exciting, fun to play, and fun to play against.

They don't feel like slow, stealthy hunters that play cat and mouse with destroyers.

"Exciting" and "submarine" don't belong in the same sentence, unless something has gone horribly wrong on board the submarine, at which point the submarines life is now, "very short and exciting".

 

Look I  have written a lot of posts about how wrong Submarines have been formatted in this game and that we should have the  "Sub Mode " back, I have also written in those very same posts how " IF " they have to stay in random my thoughts and ideas on what could be done to appease there opponents.

 Other's in the PRO Sub community have voiced there views but it ain't going to change the mind of WG, I cant say anymore than that.

 

As for the 2 actions I posted people keep saying Submarines were never involved in fleet actions, Yes they were " rare "  but if you dig deep enough you will find them.

   " The  Palawan Passage Action " some will argue that the Subs were just on there patrol lines however since this was major naval operation there is the case that these Subs were acting as part of the the fleet as forwards scouts.

 

 Battle of Convoy Hi-81

That was a sizeable task force  the IJN had for the convoy, and USN had 2 wolfpacks plus air support, its not a couple of Subs operating on there patrol lines, both groups were sent to attack the convoy as a fleet action which lasted over 4 days.

 

We could have the same argument about  Convoy PQ 17, yes the KMS had Subs on operating patrol lines but they also sent more in conjunction with a surface tack force and The Luftwaffe for a combined arms attack.

 

At the end of the day if both sides of the community come together formulate ideas on ideas about subs could work in game it wont make difference, WG has made there mind up on how Subs will be formatted and they are not going to change there mind. 

 

Your not happy about how Subs are implement, I'm not happy  either but WG is not listening to either of us.

 

cheers 

 

  

 

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37 minutes ago, tm63au said:

Look I  have written a lot of posts about how wrong Submarines have been formatted in this game and that we should have the  "Sub Mode " back, I have also written in those very same posts how " IF " they have to stay in random my thoughts and ideas on what could be done to appease there opponents.

 Other's in the PRO Sub community have voiced there views but it ain't going to change the mind of WG, I cant say anymore than that.

 

As for the 2 actions I posted people keep saying Submarines were never involved in fleet actions, Yes they were " rare "  but if you dig deep enough you will find them.

   " The  Palawan Passage Action " some will argue that the Subs were just on there patrol lines however since this was major naval operation there is the case that these Subs were acting as part of the the fleet as forwards scouts.

 

 Battle of Convoy Hi-81

That was a sizeable task force  the IJN had for the convoy, and USN had 2 wolfpacks plus air support, its not a couple of Subs operating on there patrol lines, both groups were sent to attack the convoy as a fleet action which lasted over 4 days.

 

We could have the same argument about  Convoy PQ 17, yes the KMS had Subs on operating patrol lines but they also sent more in conjunction with a surface tack force and The Luftwaffe for a combined arms attack.

 

At the end of the day if both sides of the community come together formulate ideas on ideas about subs could work in game it wont make difference, WG has made there mind up on how Subs will be formatted and they are not going to change there mind. 

 

Your not happy about how Subs are implement, I'm not happy  either but WG is not listening to either of us.

 

cheers 

 

  

 

Nobody was debating "if" submarines participated in WWII. I took your posting as an argument for "why submarines should be in the game".

All usually part of "Submarines need to be high speed, invisible, invulnerable, torpedo death machines so I can farm easy kills and call people noobs" or simply "fun for me, too bad for the other guy".

Submarines have never been part of fleet actions, and coordination between submarines and anything else on a tactical level is very limited, entirely because communication with a submerged submarine is almost impossible.

Giving submarines their own convoy mode (probably only PvE, but maybe limited PvP) is about the only way they could actually be fun, similar to the Halloween event.

There is no way to have submarines both fun to play and fun to play against in the current game.

 

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So far the reasons given are pretty absurd. By your logic, carriers should not be in the game, because they are just not realistic. The subs were already easy to get around. Hit repair and the ping lock goes poof. Pretty much anyone can dodge the torpedoes. The reason people don't like them is because they can't camp in the back and hide the whole game.

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12 hours ago, Ardwulf said:

The reason people don't like them is because they can't camp in the back and hide the whole game.

After many games of being torched in my BB by island-camping, flame-throwing radar cruisers, and torped by smoke-hiding DDs, I play subs to hunt these targets. I think WG should optimize the sub parameters for hunting these targets, as wells as scouting and occasional base capturing. 

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15 hours ago, Ardwulf said:

Hit repair and the ping lock goes poof. Pretty much anyone can dodge the torpedoes.

The "Repair" is a pretty valuable commodity. Using it to clear a ping, that can just be put right back on, leaves one vulnerable to all the subsequent DOT, including flooding from any follow-on sub torps. Players will let fires burn waiting to fix anticipated major module damage and future fires. It is THAT valuable. You want them to burn the repair because a sub might launch torps at them. Better if WG made it a separate key with a cooldown.

I haven't found those torps easy to dodge if they have been well aimed to begin with. They are too fast and rudder shifts too slow.

Edited by Sabot_100

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On 12/25/2021 at 8:40 PM, Ardwulf said:

As you can see in the game, no one bothers playing subs at all now because they are so useless. 

Not really. More like there's a gazillion things to do (Ranked, 200% dailies, Dockyards, a truck load of missions)... most of those things are not compatible or just sub optimal with Subs, on top of that Subs are in test so a dead end in terms of progression and they are getting a very significant overhaul next patch so it is rather pointless to play them at this particular moment... not really related to them being useless/enjoyable  or not... there's just too much stuff to do in game to devote time to testing Subs.

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Subs have become more playable with the incremental changes made to them, but the systemic problem remains. They're just a poor fit into the game. Even with the unrealistic speed, they're too slow, setting up attacks is too slow, and if you've got vision on a target to set up the attack then by the time your torpedoes arrive, your surface combatant teammates have already sunk the target.

And the only way I know that might fix that would break them in the opposite direction.

Edited by RainbowFartingUnicorn
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2 hours ago, rentsch said:

 

After many games of being torched in my BB by island-camping, flame-throwing radar cruisers, and torped by smoke-hiding DDs, I play subs to hunt these targets. I think WG should optimize the sub parameters for hunting these targets, as wells as scouting and occasional base capturing. 

Which they are really too slow to do. If you fix the speed issue, they just end up as a destroyer replacement.

The game would have been better off with a couple more maps (instead of adding an underwater environment to all existing maps) a new game mode or two, a couple new ship lines and clean ups of existing models.

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On 12/26/2021 at 12:56 PM, Tank_Grrl said:

How much time have people spent trying to learn them? I played a rental sub once and had no clue what I was doing. But it seemed like it had potential to be cool?

I've been playing them in WOWs since their introduction during a Halloween Event and during subsequent "testing" events on the Public Test Server and on the Live Server.

Before that I've played other Submarine games, such as Silent Service & Silent Service-II and Red Storm Rising.
 

https://youtu.be/O5Cgzarg0HI
 

 

https://youtu.be/I9DtHEKpXFI

 

Edited by Wolfswetpaws

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1 hour ago, SgtBeltfed said:

Which they are really too slow to do. If you fix the speed issue, they just end up as a destroyer replacement.

It’s not that they are too slow, it that the game lets the enemy know they are being targeted, even without the ‘ping’.  

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31 minutes ago, rentsch said:

the game lets the enemy know they are being targeted, even without the ‘ping’.  

Yes the ping is there to let a target know a sub is looking at them (amongst other reasons). However, how would a target know this if the sub decided not to ping.

Guns targeting gives a count IF the target has PT but torps do not. You think the target should not even get a "Detected" indicator if only the sub is looking at it?

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48 minutes ago, rentsch said:

It’s not that they are too slow, it that the game lets the enemy know they are being targeted, even without the ‘ping’.  

There's usually enough ships around that it's impossible to know who's targeting you. I'd usually suspect a more dangerous DD is targeting me than a submarine.

The real problem is, submarines aren't fast enough to get around to shoot the island huggers before more capable ships have taken care of the problem.

A CV's aircraft are the first solution to this, nothing can get in position faster and start making attacks to drive the offending ship out of cover. The real drawbacks are, carrier aircraft don't do that much damage and are only there for a short while.

DD's are next best solution, they can be the second unit to get into a position to attack an island hugging ship, and unlike CV aircraft, are more likely to outright destroy the island hugger than just drive them out. Getting cut off and destroyed is a problem.

Submarines are maybe a distant 3rd, lacking even the destroyer's speed, having marginally better punch than a CV's planes, and all the same liabilities as a destroyer.

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I dunno, i really liked playing the tier 6 cachalot.

i mean they do next to no real damage. You cant ping a CV. Once your spotted your pretty much done for. They are very very slow while submerged and you cant see whats going on in the game, even the mini map blanks. And their Torps are very easy to dodge once you figure out the trick. i don't think Ive been hit with a subs torp in at-least a week.

but its fun randomly pinging people near a capture point and watching them run away :D

and when you get bored, you can just surface then change to a new ship.

I think subs are a great fluff ship.

 

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Subs useless? Hardly. Play them as subs and ignore WG's silly ping mechanic. 

image.thumb.png.8143e663a6d79b16ca451ab8a38948fc.png

On avg I net 80 to 150k damage per battle. Sometimes I get 0 damage just because I prefer to spot for team so we can win rather than mindlessly torp it all..other times the red team just rolls the greens so quickly I can't even get to position the sub to sink anything. 

... but it is a VERY useful ship if you play it for the team's sake not just your own. No other ship can literally spot like the sub does nor can any other ship go after the most harmful ships to its team and specifically sink them (CVs, radar cruisers, back sniping BBs or soviet bias ships in general). No other ship can cause the entire red team on the side of the map he's in turn into a flock of headless chickens just by pinging a few of them to trigger a panic....allowing your team to push them off XD 

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I just waited in 10 minute queues for about 6 games. I would agree that subs are severely underwhelming. I spent an entire game double pinging and spamming a fan of torps ( I even waited until the torps got close to start pinging to maximize the potential to land the torps) and BBs can just wipe the pings and be immune for far too long. Even after a ping wipe i had a N. Carolina just hard turn right and completely dodged 4 double pinged torps. Most games you just get ur pings wiped before the torps can do anything and then you get spotted by smart CVs and focused by every players depth charge planes in the area. Even at T8 i was getting chased down by DDs quite easily and the chances of you hitting a DD now are next to 0 with ping wipes and the severely nerfed damage and control over the torps direction (even with double ping which im quite certain does nothing now))

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11 minutes ago, caseygarland said:

I just waited in 10 minute queues for about 6 games. I would agree that subs are severely underwhelming. I spent an entire game double pinging and spamming a fan of torps ( I even waited until the torps got close to start pinging to maximize the potential to land the torps) and BBs can just wipe the pings and be immune for far too long. Even after a ping wipe i had a N. Carolina just hard turn right and completely dodged 4 double pinged torps. Most games you just get ur pings wiped before the torps can do anything and then you get spotted by smart CVs and focused by every players depth charge planes in the area. Even at T8 i was getting chased down by DDs quite easily and the chances of you hitting a DD now are next to 0 with ping wipes and the severely nerfed damage and control over the torps direction (even with double ping which im quite certain does nothing now))

they announced yesterday that subs where being removed to be reworked and would be brought back at a later time better adjusted.

I can only speak of tier 6, but yeah as of right now they are rather underwhelming, most games i land around 4 torps for 20-30k damage a game, a great game will let me land around 12.

i do enjoy the 1v1 sub battles tho, when no one else is close enough to butt in with the depth charges.

but! had a game a few days ago, we had 8 people left on our team and 5 on the reds when their sub was spotted. Everyone (except for 1 guy) on our team congregated on top of that sub and hunted it. our base was being taken and nobody cared! (except for that one guy) its was hunt the sub or bust!.

It was a truly fun moment and funny as hell.

its great to see people enjoying the game without always worrying about winning.

so yeah, i like subs and the content they bring, whether they be good or not.

 

 

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Subs are nearly unplayable vs anyone with a brain cell

Most games I just get xray vision spammed by some radar consume and before i can even dive (not that it matters) i get spammed by depth bomber planes. With everyone having depth bombers it makes it real fun to be the only sub on a team and the second i get spotted i have at least 3 sets of planes flying over with bombs that dont miss and always cause flooding or fire. Every game is a complete crapshow vs people who know how to use the consumes because the SECOND they know a sub is within xray vision they just spam the consume and then spam planes and that usually just kills the subs.

Diving is a mistake. If you go any deeper than 24, you just slow yourself down to the point where every DD will just run you over. When ur spotted the best thing you can do seems to be to just get far enough under the surface to not get hit by shells but not deep enough to get severely slowed because max depth means nothing anymore.

The best strat that ive seen for doing any kind of meaningful damage is to ignore the new dummy torps because you dont get enough for them to matter. If youre gana use them you might as well just play a DD who has 2-3 times as many torps. The sidewinder torps seem to only be effective when you send them in waves. you can fully expect your first couple will absolutely miss vs anyone with the R key on their keyboard. So ive been sending torps in waves. Even without pings being wiped ive had plenty of double pinged sidewinders miss BBs due to them just hard turning.

Subs suck. I dont care what youtube video youve seen about some guy 360 noscope triple pinging sidewinders into a montana 1 shotting him. These things suck. They are too easily spotted and too easily spammed down by planes. I mean wth the planes literally just teleport to you with some sort of alien technology and the bombs just do freakishly high area damage at any depth.

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6 hours ago, caseygarland said:

Subs are nearly unplayable vs anyone with a brain cell

Most games I just get xray vision spammed by some radar consume and before i can even dive (not that it matters) i get spammed by depth bomber planes. With everyone having depth bombers it makes it real fun to be the only sub on a team and the second i get spotted i have at least 3 sets of planes flying over with bombs that dont miss and always cause flooding or fire. Every game is a complete crapshow vs people who know how to use the consumes because the SECOND they know a sub is within xray vision they just spam the consume and then spam planes and that usually just kills the subs.

Diving is a mistake. If you go any deeper than 24, you just slow yourself down to the point where every DD will just run you over. When ur spotted the best thing you can do seems to be to just get far enough under the surface to not get hit by shells but not deep enough to get severely slowed because max depth means nothing anymore.

The best strat that ive seen for doing any kind of meaningful damage is to ignore the new dummy torps because you dont get enough for them to matter. If youre gana use them you might as well just play a DD who has 2-3 times as many torps. The sidewinder torps seem to only be effective when you send them in waves. you can fully expect your first couple will absolutely miss vs anyone with the R key on their keyboard. So ive been sending torps in waves. Even without pings being wiped ive had plenty of double pinged sidewinders miss BBs due to them just hard turning.

Subs suck. I dont care what youtube video youve seen about some guy 360 noscope triple pinging sidewinders into a montana 1 shotting him. These things suck. They are too easily spotted and too easily spammed down by planes. I mean wth the planes literally just teleport to you with some sort of alien technology and the bombs just do freakishly high area damage at any depth.

and i thought subs at tier 6 where rather bad with only the 1 torp, 6 min battery and being spotted at any depth so long as a ship is close enough.. sounds worse the higher tier you go?

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Subs are NOT useless, they make great targets, for my guns if they are near the surface or on the surface and great for practicing with depth charges

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All I can do with the subs now is just penetrate deep and try to drive right up to a BB or CV and put a full front spread into them.. Try to turn enough to put the rears into them too before dying.. At any sort of range, all you have to do to shake "homing" torps is turn, it's a JOKE..

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On 12/25/2021 at 10:08 PM, desmo_2 said:

Really?  Please point me to a naval combatant fleet engagement (which is what this game focuses on) when subs were a significant participant.

Point me to a naval combatant fleet engagement of the era where BBs hide behind islands and can magically see ships and aim accurately at moving /dodging targets. Or where the ships had a magic potion to heal themselves.  Or where two fleets ran heedlessly at each other over and over again with only a ship or two left afloat, all to do it over again. Or where fleets would occupy designated areas of an ocean for a certain amount of time and win the battle. 

World of Warships is a game- not a historical simulator.   I personally found subs to be a fun and challenging game element- I hope they bring them back and make them a lot less neutered. 

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