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Capt_Teague

Subs in general

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I see they were nerfed and I would have to say so.  To detectable now.

Boy how is it that a sub - that is half the size of a DD have a detect range of a DD or even higher?    Subs surface range should be 4km max, keep periscope depth as is.

Planes should not be able to detect a submerged sub below periscope depth.  That defeats the whole purpose of a sub - stealth.

They are already tinfoil and can be destroyed very easily.  With very limited submerge time they can barely get into position before they have to surface again - and usually with 3 enemy ships around them.  And with limited torpedo range they have to get close to do anything.

Also the one thing I don't see, maybe I'm blind, is a torpedo to surface time.   If' I'm submerged at 20m then I need to know at what distance I need to be at for my torps to actually reach the surface to hit.  Otherwise they would just go right underneath my target.    

Or do torpedo's only surface when a ship is pinged,  on the surface or periscope depth? 

A Sub should be able to stay submerged without battery,  they just can't move.   This is a death sentence otherwise.

Need to add something - with the 6 min 40 sec battery time and it uses it up at 2.8x faster while submerged means less than 3 minutes of actual submerged time.

No way can this ship be effective more than once in a 20 minute match.  It might get a single ship then it will have to retreat, recharge move back into the combat area and by that time the match is over.

 

Edited by Capt_Teague
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[edited] it, I gave up subs... They were hard to play before nerf and only worked against idiots (luckily the game is roaming with them), but now even the idiots got no more concern... When the curiosity to play subs ends, nobody's gonna be masoquist enough to play it anymore... Mine ended already...

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100% agree w/ Teague. whoever is making Rules for submarines has 0% understanding of submarine warfare. Additionally, IMO, Submarines should start in the middle of the map or more forward then the main force (1st island chain) to simulate the ambush style of warfare submarines were designed for and to balance the map. 

The biggest design flaw IMO though is sub on sub and counter measures/detect ranges. subs should a active sonar and  have low detect ranges passively unless they ping  in which they would have a long range detection and medium detect ranges when pinged actively. subs should have torpedo decoys that are effective at medium/ long range shots.

The ping system you have in place for higher accuracy is OK but again every ping should increase detection range ( 1st general area within 7-8K , 2nd within 3k yards). Aircraft carriers/destroyers should play a central part in anti submarine warfare with aircraft. You should add helos for anti submarine warfare with active sonar buoy and  torpedo consumable and make them vulnerable to fighter/ ship AA. 

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22 hours ago, Capt_Teague said:

Planes should not be able to detect a submerged sub below periscope depth.  That defeats the whole purpose of a sub - stealth.

They are already tinfoil and can be destroyed very easily.  With very limited submerge time they can barely get into position before they have to surface again - and usually with 3 enemy ships around them.  And with limited torpedo range they have to get close to do anything.

Also the one thing I don't see, maybe I'm blind, is a torpedo to surface time.   If' I'm submerged at 20m then I need to know at what distance I need to be at for my torps to actually reach the surface to hit.  Otherwise they would just go right underneath my target.    

Or do torpedo's only surface when a ship is pinged,  on the surface or periscope depth? 

Need to add something - with the 6 min 40 sec battery time and it uses it up at 2.8x faster while submerged means less than 3 minutes of actual submerged time.

No way can this ship be effective more than once in a 20 minute match.  It might get a single ship then it will have to retreat, recharge move back into the combat area and by that time the match is over.

just answering several points you have.

Planes can and did spot subs that were below periscope depth. Alot of it depended on sea conditions, but they could be see. The subs in the game just do not have the same depth capability that modern nuclear subs have.

Torpedos pretty much remain at the same depth you fired them at, unless you have a target pinged. If you have pinged it, both types of torpedos will change depth to that of your target. There are limits to how fast a torpedo will rise though. If you are slightly deeper then periscope depth, it will take about 3-4kms for the torps to rise up to hit the target.

Battery time is fine. If you are spending the entire time underwater, you are not play the subs right. The accelerated time is when you are hard spotted or as you use the ping. That will cause you to run through the battery very quickly. I find myself spending more time on the surface, and only submerging when I get too close to a opposing ship. Several battles, I remained on the surface for quite a long time after battle start, even scored a kill on a BB. Also remember, when you are on the surface, your battery recharges.

No, its not a ship that carries. An aggressive sub can be a threat in the right instances, but being too aggressive leads to a quick return to port. I find it best to work in concert with other ships. An enemy ship focused on the surface units of your team might miss being pinged by your sub. In turn, if they get focused on the ping and then your torps, it can lead to them being deleted by your surface forces. In the later stages of the battle, the sub can and should go for the low HP ships.

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7 hours ago, Semyaz said:

You should add helos for anti submarine warfare with active sonar buoy and  torpedo consumable and make them vulnerable to fighter/ ship AA. 

first instance I can find of a helicopter with dipping sonar and capable of carrying weapons is the HSS-1 in 1954.

While towards the 'end' of the time period this game mostly covers, they would be very situational as in a single lone ship with no one around. In alot of cases I have seen currently, the depth charge aircraft have to fly into range of other ships with AA, and can be shot down. I doubt a helicopter would even last as long as one of those planes.

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On 11/25/2021 at 8:27 PM, Lord_Slayer said:

Planes can and did spot subs that were below periscope depth. Alot of it depended on sea conditions, but they could be see. The subs in the game just do not have the same depth capability that modern nuclear subs have.

I would like to see proof of this.  A PBY 1000 feet in the air could see the silhouette of a sub 100 feet below the surface.   I find that hard to believe, in fact going through what info I can find all suggest that aircraft could only detect subs on the surface or at periscope depth with the conning tower exposed or the periscope raised as both would leave a wake in the water.   Nothing about a fully submerged sub.

On 11/25/2021 at 8:27 PM, Lord_Slayer said:

Battery time is fine. If you are spending the entire time underwater, you are not play the subs right.

That's a matter of opinion.   Subs didn't normally surface during the day time unless they had to and would only surface at night to recharge their batteries.  3 minutes of submerged time in too short for the sub to be a sub in this game IMO.   If playing the sub, I shouldn't have to be visible and detectable so often, with a paper hull, to be useful.   Now if they want to introduce night time play - that would be interesting.  All visual detectability reduced by half.  I'm game.

 

On 11/25/2021 at 8:27 PM, Lord_Slayer said:

I find it best to work in concert with other ships.

Granted, but that's not how a sub were suppose to work- it was a hunter killer and a lone wolf.  It wasn't supposed to work with the rest of the fleet.  Of course homing torpedo's didn't exist back then either. 

Nor would a sub use active pinging, as it would give away their position. But this is just a game so they make it the best they can.    

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6 minutes ago, Capt_Teague said:

I would like to see proof of this.  A PBY 1000 feet in the air could see the silhouette of a sub 100 feet below the surface.   I find that hard to believe, in fact going through what info I can find all suggest that aircraft could only detect subs on the surface or at periscope depth with the conning tower exposed or the periscope raised as both would leave a wake in the water.   Nothing about a fully submerged sub.


Its not a PBY, but this sub does not have its periscope up. Like I said, alot of it depends on sea conditions.

An active submarine spotted from the air during a NATO exercise :  r/interestingasfuck

 

9 minutes ago, Capt_Teague said:

That's a matter of opinion.   Subs didn't normally surface during the day time unless they had to and would only surface at night to recharge their batteries.  3 minutes of submerged time in too short for the sub to be a sub in this game IMO.   If playing the sub, I shouldn't have to be visible and detectable so often, with a paper hull, to be useful.   Now if they want to introduce night time play - that would be interesting.  All visual detectability reduced by half.  I'm game.  

Very true. But this isn't a submarine simulator. You do not have a few hours to position your sub into the best position to torpedo your target.

This is an arcade game where battles are compressed into 20 minutes of play.

 

12 minutes ago, Capt_Teague said:

Granted, but that's not how a sub were suppose to work- it was a hunter killer and a lone wolf.  It wasn't supposed to work with the rest of the fleet.  Of course homing torpedo's didn't exist back then either. 

Nor would a sub use active pinging, as it would give away their position. But this is just a game so they make it the best they can.    

yes. Subs operated on their own in WW2.

However, the whole point of a US Fleet Submarine was to operate with the Fleet. But the Fleet was sunk at the start of the war.

But I was speaking in terms of this game. In this game, I have found it best work work alongside other ships. 

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On 11/24/2021 at 11:36 PM, Capt_Teague said:

I see they were nerfed and I would have to say so.  To detectable now.

Boy how is it that a sub - that is half the size of a DD have a detect range of a DD or even higher?    Subs surface range should be 4km max, keep periscope depth as is.

Planes should not be able to detect a submerged sub below periscope depth.  That defeats the whole purpose of a sub - stealth.

They are already tinfoil and can be destroyed very easily.  With very limited submerge time they can barely get into position before they have to surface again - and usually with 3 enemy ships around them.  And with limited torpedo range they have to get close to do anything.

Also the one thing I don't see, maybe I'm blind, is a torpedo to surface time.   If' I'm submerged at 20m then I need to know at what distance I need to be at for my torps to actually reach the surface to hit.  Otherwise they would just go right underneath my target.    

Or do torpedo's only surface when a ship is pinged,  on the surface or periscope depth? 

A Sub should be able to stay submerged without battery,  they just can't move.   This is a death sentence otherwise.

Need to add something - with the 6 min 40 sec battery time and it uses it up at 2.8x faster while submerged means less than 3 minutes of actual submerged time.

No way can this ship be effective more than once in a 20 minute match.  It might get a single ship then it will have to retreat, recharge move back into the combat area and by that time the match is over.

 

I couldn`t agree more! Wargaming got lost concerning the subs due to pay too much attention on cry babies diregarding to do the right thing. 

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Wait you forgot to add the icing on the cake!!

Detected by RADAR at periscope depth.... yeah explain that one to me.

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On 12/4/2021 at 8:12 PM, Lord_Slayer said:


Its not a PBY, but this sub does not have its periscope up. Like I said, alot of it depends on sea conditions.

An active submarine spotted from the air during a NATO exercise :  r/interestingasfuck

 

Very true. But this isn't a submarine simulator. You do not have a few hours to position your sub into the best position to torpedo your target.

This is an arcade game where battles are compressed into 20 minutes of play.

 

yes. Subs operated on their own in WW2.

However, the whole point of a US Fleet Submarine was to operate with the Fleet. But the Fleet was sunk at the start of the war.

But I was speaking in terms of this game. In this game, I have found it best work work alongside other ships. 

Yes, it is possible for an aircraft to spot a sub underwater, especially in clearer waters, like the Caribbean, or Mediterranean…, but to consider a sub at operating depth in most waters, I would think it’s not visible. 

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22 hours ago, khestergk said:

I put 19 torps into a BB, when I was finally forced to surface he one-shot me... come on seriously? 19 torps and the BB lived

Were the torps all hitting the same spot?

Damage saturation is a factor.

Also the Homing torps do not do as much damage as the proximity.

 

20 minutes ago, rentsch said:

Yes, it is possible for an aircraft to spot a sub underwater, especially in clearer waters, like the Caribbean, or Mediterranean…, but to consider a sub at operating depth in most waters, I would think it’s not visible. 

we're talking WW2 subs. The only time they would go deep would be if under attack. Otherwise they operate near or on the surface. Remember, these were essentially surface ships that could go under water. The did need to surface to charge their batteries.

Modern submarines are designed to remain under water. They don't need to surface and have greater ability to operate from the depths. From what I know, they only would go to periscope depth if they were required to visually identify a target. Otherwise they could fire off a torp from the x depth and the target may not even know the sub was there till the torpedo hit.

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Ok, I just chatted with a good friend that flew P3’s. He said in the Atlantic and Pacific, once a sub lowered its periscope, it could not be seen by aircraft.  There are exceptions in places in the world where the water is very clear, and especially if the plane knew where to look when. 

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I tried using my radar in annapoli9s and I couldn't detect anything, there needs to be a little more anti-sub detection and that they should NOT be able to fire torps at a ship from 9000000 miles away. Countermeasures should be fitted in EVERYSHIP.

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On 12/4/2021 at 6:55 PM, Capt_Teague said:

Granted, but that's not how a sub were suppose to work- it was a hunter killer and a lone wolf.  It wasn't supposed to work with the rest of the fleet.  Of course homing torpedo's didn't exist back then either. 

This is 1000% untrue. Like categorically false. In all major naval engagements of WWII submarines were used by the US navy to create a picket line around the expected battlefield to spot and report enemy fleet movement.  They were also used to shepherd the opposing fleets into disadvantageous situations. 

example: the united states deployed 19 submarines to participate in the battle of midway. They were deployed in 3 patrol groups with the mission to locate and report the IJN fleet positions. They were successful in this regard, both locating the Japanese landing fleet and, more notably, the Japanese strike fleet. Locating the JP carrier strike force before they found the US strike force is the single largest factor in why the US won midway. 

The Japanese had deployed 13 submarines in operation MI for the same purpose of screening for the American fleet position. The only reason they failed is the American fleet crossed the submarine picket several days before the submarines reached their patrol coordinates. 

After midway, the position of USS Yorktown was known to the Japanese navy and I-168 was deployed to sink her. 

And, finally, after the air engagement between the two carrier strike forces made it infeasible for them to bomb midway again, Admiral Yamamoto ordered the submarine fleet to sail to midway and begin bombarding the airstrip with their deck guns, which they did. 

 

also random fact: the US fleet around Yorktown dropped at least 60 depth charges on I-168 and all of Hamman's depth charges exploded as she sank. They did not sink her.

Edited by BB_Tosa

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On 4/2/2022 at 6:22 PM, Fog_Battleship_Tosa said:

This is 1000% untrue. Like categorically false. In all major naval engagements of WWII submarines were used by the US navy to create a picket line around the expected battlefield to spot and report enemy fleet movement.  They were also used to shepherd the opposing fleets into disadvantageous situations. 

example: the united states deployed 19 submarines to participate in the battle of midway. They were deployed in 3 patrol groups with the mission to locate and report the IJN fleet positions. They were successful in this regard, both locating the Japanese landing fleet and, more notably, the Japanese strike fleet. Locating the JP carrier strike force before they found the US strike force is the single largest factor in why the US won midway. 

The Japanese had deployed 13 submarines in operation MI for the same purpose of screening for the American fleet position. The only reason they failed is the American fleet crossed the submarine picket several days before the submarines reached their patrol coordinates. 

After midway, the position of USS Yorktown was known to the Japanese navy and I-168 was deployed to sink her. 

And, finally, after the air engagement between the two carrier strike forces made it infeasible for them to bomb midway again, Admiral Yamamoto ordered the submarine fleet to sail to midway and begin bombarding the airstrip with their deck guns, which they did. 

 

also random fact: the US fleet around Yorktown dropped at least 60 depth charges on I-168 and all of Hamman's depth charges exploded as she sank. They did not sink her.

HAHAHAHA what are you talking about? This is a game, the perimeters of subs in the GAME, this is not REAL............

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