Carnot or Napoli

[ZARDOZ_II]

I have enough coal, or will soon, to get Napoli.  I've heard it's a fun ship to play.  But I don't play Italians that much.  I'm also closing in on promoting a French captain to 21 points soon.  So the Carrot will fill that bill as a trainer.  So your thoughts on these two ships?

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

Just now, ZARDOZ_II said:

I'm also closing in on promoting a French captain to 21 points soon.  So the Carrot will fill that bill as a trainer. 

What other French premiums do you have? As I understand it, the Carnot isn't much different from having a tricked-out Dunkerque at T9, the difference being that she gets cruiser instead of BB matchmaking. If you already have something like the Jean Bart or Bourgogne, or both, Carnot might be unnecessary duplication.

I'm facing a similar quandary. Depending on who you listen to, Bourgogne is some of the best fun you can have at Tier 10. But I already have Jean Bart, and though she's a turret short, she's still a very potent ship. Plus I have the Pan-Asian Alsace premium clone, so I sort of have a cut-price Bourgogne at T9 (albeit she cannot run French captains, of course). Am I doubling or even tripling up too much? I have a difficult decision ahead of me, but like you, my next 21 pointer is going to be French (although I get the idea that you're much closer to your goal; mine's still on 16 points!).

[ZARDOZ_II]

6 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

What other French premiums do you have? 

but like you, my next 21 pointer is going to be French (although I get the idea that you're much closer to your goal; mine's still on 16 points!).

French premiums, I have

• Siroco
• Aigle
• The Grass
• Dunkin' Donut
• Strassbourg
• JB
• Burger King

And not too far ahead of you. Best French captain is also on 16 points.  But I have about 1.5 million ECXP.  Though he's fairly close to reaching 17.  I'd prefer to get an RN captain to 21. But my best Brit captain is about 200k points behind.  But I probably have more premium RN BB's than all my French premiums combined.

[mofton]

I have both and vastly prefer Napoli for fun. 

Napoli is stealthy, maneuverable, has comfortable gun handling, engine smoke and secondaries that are usually worthless, but which can be funny, plus torpedoes for rushing. 

Carnot is a bit of a barge. She's straight line fast with the boost up, but not that fast without it, and she wallows through turns while still being able to out-turn her guns. Carnot's firing angles are really bad when kiting, which detracts. Pushing in she lacks torpedoes, the smoke of Napoli to escape, radar or anything else. She's also a huge target for anything with 30mm overmatch to chunk, or HE/SAP. 

The worst thing about Carnot is her reload, 25s base which is really unfortunate. You really need to try and prop it up with reload mod. You don't have great HE like Azuma, or better autobounce angles like Alaska, or mad penetration like Kronshtadt. The overall firepower is very meh, both AP and HE. You can't consistently get fires on targets. 

On the plus side for you, neither ship is particularly captain skill intensive. 

I don't know the economic argument but Carnot is really sad and feels like a T8 compared to T10 Napoli. Absolutely recommend Napoli for fun.

[MidnightPhoenix07]

As far as the ships go, I definitely prefer and enjoy Napoli more than Carnot. Napoli gives more of a unique playstyle (big HE shells and great secondaries for a cruiser), while Carnot just feels like a shrunken Alsace. It has good AP for a large cruiser and the speed boost is unique among them, but it feels kind of lacking in any role compared to the others -- Azuma's better at long range play, Agir's better close up, and Alaska felt more comfortable in that mid range Carnot is supposed to be in. And at close range, Napoli's substantially better as well, with much better armor, better secondaries, torps, and cruiser fire/flooding rather than battleship like Carnot gets.

That's just me though, and I know sometimes the ships I prefer aren't the ones other reviews favor. A lot of reviews for Napoli were meh to unfavorable while I really enjoyed it, while a lot of reviews for Carnot have been more favorable but I don't like it as much.

9 minutes ago, ZARDOZ_II said:

French premiums, I have

In that case, I'd say you have the French trainer role covered. IMO Carnot wouldn't work amazingly as a cruiser trainer since the ideal builds are slightly different, but of course would work as a trainer for the other classes. Napoli actually fits the tech tree commander build pretty well, as long as you're running a more standard build.

If you don't play much in the way of Italian ships, then Napoli might not get much use as a trainer either. But it could also be beneficial for mission coverage then, since it gives you an Italian ship.

 

Another factor to consider is the snowflake situation -- would you prefer another SC and santa crate, or some more dragon flags and steel?

[Khafni]

48 minutes ago, mofton said:

I have both and vastly prefer Napoli for fun. 

Napoli is stealthy, maneuverable, has comfortable gun handling, engine smoke and secondaries that are usually worthless, but which can be funny, plus torpedoes for rushing. 

Carnot is a bit of a barge. She's straight line fast with the boost up, but not that fast without it, and she wallows through turns while still being able to out-turn her guns. Carnot's firing angles are really bad when kiting, which detracts. Pushing in she lacks torpedoes, the smoke of Napoli to escape, radar or anything else. She's also a huge target for anything with 30mm overmatch to chunk, or HE/SAP. 

The worst thing about Carnot is her reload, 25s base which is really unfortunate. You really need to try and prop it up with reload mod. You don't have great HE like Azuma, or better autobounce angles like Alaska, or mad penetration like Kronshtadt. The overall firepower is very meh, both AP and HE. You can't consistently get fires on targets. 

On the plus side for you, neither ship is particularly captain skill intensive. 

I don't know the economic argument but Carnot is really sad and feels like a T8 compared to T10 Napoli. Absolutely recommend Napoli for fun.

I have Napoli and she is fun to sail. I don't have Carnot and have minimally thought about her but, after reading your post, she is so far behind me I can't even see her in my rearview mirror.

Thanks for the excellent summary!

[mofton]

4 minutes ago, Khafni said:

I have Napoli and she is fun to sail. I don't have Carnot and have minimally thought about her but, after reading your post, she is so far behind me I can't even see her in my rearview mirror.

Thanks for the excellent summary!

Thanks very much.

I try not to be too much of a downer on Carnot but she seems somehow worse than the sum of her parts. 

For instance you'd think that flanking might be a good tactic - the speed should allow it, and the AP pen is reasonable for a 12in/305mm gun (I've citadelled a Soyuz at about 7km, but only once). The problem is half the maps don't allow it, your concealment doesn't help (12km full build vs 10.3ish for Napoli) your AA is unremarkable and 'flank' is synonymous with 'go off alone and die to a carrier'. 

I've tried rushing a Jutland in smoke: 43kt and hydro, surprise! Result: somehow the high velocity of the guns at 5km means 10/10 misses on a stationary destroyer. When maneuvering and tracking you run out of turret traverse, no torps, 'only' 22s to the next chance. My secondaries roared into life at 4km! Oh wait, most of them are 100mm so just shatter on DD's, 18 hits for 1,200 damage...

If you kite you either lack range or exacerbate reload deficiencies. Azuma naturally has 30% more HE DPM than you, and a little more range, and a spotter if you take Engine Boost on Carnot (which you should!). The angles on the front turrets don't help either.

 

[warheart1992]

5 minutes ago, mofton said:

Thanks very much.

I try not to be too much of a downer on Carnot but she seems somehow worse than the sum of her parts. 

For instance you'd think that flanking might be a good tactic - the speed should allow it, and the AP pen is reasonable for a 12in/305mm gun (I've citadelled a Soyuz at about 7km, but only once). The problem is half the maps don't allow it, your concealment doesn't help (12km full build vs 10.3ish for Napoli) your AA is unremarkable and 'flank' is synonymous with 'go off alone and die to a carrier'. 

I've tried rushing a Jutland in smoke: 43kt and hydro, surprise! Result: somehow the high velocity of the guns at 5km means 10/10 misses on a stationary destroyer. When maneuvering and tracking you run out of turret traverse, no torps, 'only' 22s to the next chance. My secondaries roared into life at 4km! Oh wait, most of them are 100mm so just shatter on DD's, 18 hits for 1,200 damage...

If you kite you either lack range or exacerbate reload deficiencies. Azuma naturally has 30% more HE DPM than you, and a little more range, and a spotter if you take Engine Boost on Carnot (which you should!). The angles on the front turrets don't help either.

 

I'd have really loved to bring some insane wisdom to how Carnot can be an excellent ship, but alas, you are pretty much spot on the ship being somehow worse than the sum of its parts.

Individually she looks set up for success. Amazing front angles with the potential for firing all guns while fully angled. Armor more akin to Alaska, aside from the extremities. Speed Boost that turns you into pretty much the fastest cruiser around.

Then there are these few realizations. The wonky dispersion, not that noticeable when you get a sub 20 second reload rears it's ugly head. The ship sits very high on the water, making it easier to arm AP and the rear firing angles don't help much. The AP itself can be unreliable at times and the HE is average. There should be alot of potential for such a ship specializing in flanking, but either the maps are too short, or the alpha thrown around in these battles is too much and you get wrecked. I got the ship, I don't really regret it, but feel something was missing. 

From what I remember Carnot used to have improved AP fuses like the RN CLs; can't help but wonder whether this was the missing piece tying it all together. As she is, she's a workable but otherwise unremarkable ship.

[SPL1TTA]

Carnot is nothing special and burns to the ground in seconds. You are forced to run a ranged build.

 

[remington79]

I was in the same boat as you and I went with Carnot. Part of the reason is I have Jean-Jacques Honoré from an event so I have a captain with some special skills such as a buffed adrenaline rush and grease the gears. I also have Aigle and Strasbourg so I can move him around the three. 
I’ve had some good matches and some bad matches with it. I even got a Dreadnought in one game. I usually do decent/good damage with her. AP has been good for me. I have it set up with propulsion mod and then instead of concealment I put in steering mod. I used range and aiming to round it out. 
One things for sure is I’ve had a lot of fun with it and I’m glad I bought it. I’ll get Napoli or Pom next. I get my premiums for the fun factor. I’ve found her to be maneuverable and accurate enough. 

[oldewolfe]

Had a 493 Secondary Hit Game in Napoli, I don't have Carnot....    Napoli is a Hoot to Drive, Point it at Red and Sail Into them, give a Wiggle to Unload the 2nds to One Side or the Other as you Aim Torp's and the Mains....     

 

 

 

 

 

Next one I'm looking at may well be Guiseppe Verdi also with SAP 2nds, so we'll see how that turns out...

 

With the 25% Off Coupon it's 189K Coal by the way...