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Thegooorooo

Coop and subs suggestion

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If we are going to have subs in coop, can we move to a 12 v 12 format for the coop games? I feel this would be so much better than playing 9v9 with 3 of those subs.

 

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much better if they just limit 1 sub per side just like cvs should be at any tier. 

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Just now, KampKeema85_2D said:

It would be better to remove subs from coop.  Otherwise limit to only 1 per side.

We are still working on figuring out the balance in terms of number of subs on each mode.

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1 minute ago, Maredraco said:

We are still working on figuring out the balance in terms of number of subs on each mode.

It's not so much a matter of balance.  First of all the current game machanics of subs is very broken [sub speed, torpedo speed, lack of asw weapons on most ships].  At least if there was only one in the game maybe I could spend more time dealing with the other ships rather than dogging subs and their broken torps.  Also with 1/3 of the ships being subs lately getting good damage games have become few and far between.

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11 minutes ago, Maredraco said:

We are still working on figuring out the balance in terms of number of subs on each mode.

Subs have changed the feel of the game in co-op. It’s simply not fun with subs, IMO. It’s admirable that you guys want to see them in the game, but they’re just wrong for what makes that mode fun. 

The recipe for fun is all wonky because there are too many ingredients.

Additionally, Dutch cruisers are almost impossible to practice with in co-op because the bots avoid the targeting square before the planes even show up.

 

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1 minute ago, Dudefella said:

Subs have changed the feel of the game in co-op. It’s simply not fun with subs, IMO. It’s admirable that you guys want to see them in the game, but they’re just wrong for what makes that mode fun. 

The recipe for fun is all wonky because there are too many ingredients.

Additionally, Dutch cruisers are almost impossible to practice with in co-op because the bots avoid the targeting square before the planes even show up.

 

I have to agree.  Subs have changed the feel of the game and not in a good way.  They do not work and they have taken the fun out of coop.

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The best thing for co-op would be to programmed the last remaining sub to surface when outnumbered 3-1 or worse as there is nothing more frustrating than waiting 4-5 mins for it to surface or to cap out when there is nothing anyone can do to find/kill the sub.

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There’s nothing fun about “Cannot engage target” or whatever the text is.  It’s obscene to have such a bad negative-feedback mechanic in this game.

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24 minutes ago, Maredraco said:

We are still working on figuring out the balance in terms of number of subs on each mode.

The only downside is when it's 3 Subs, 4 DDs, Me, and a CV.

But like the man says, we are still testing.
The small ship overload is probably due to stats they're after.

Their ain't gonna be no 12v12. That's already been explained.
Once they get the data they're after, they'll probably combine subs w DDs
for numbers limits, because that seems the most logical.
Otherwise they'd have to rework all the damage stuff.

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16 minutes ago, Maredraco said:

We are still working on figuring out the balance in terms of number of subs on each mode.

Maybe for me it’s just a matter of raw experience.

I don’t personally consider even three subs in Co-op any kind of a threat.

I suppose there have been games were I’ve not done much; but that’s were raw experience and all the resultant accumulated credits comes into play again; “Meh, whatever. Next game.”

In pretty much any ship, at any tier; kill the surface bots, then start hunting down the subs. In pretty much all cases the mini-map tells you exactly where to look.

The only real variation is in using sub hydro to flush Bot subs out, or circling planes to spot them when they eventually surface. For that matter, I have CQE kills against subs from my carriers.

While other players are kvetching about ‘Where are the subs?’ and ‘stupid subs.’ I’m usually going right to them.

19 minutes ago, KampKeema85_2D said:

It's not so much a matter of balance.  First of all the current game machanics of subs is very broken [sub speed, torpedo speed, lack of asw weapons on most ships].

It’s called using HE and your guns.

My first sub kill this time around was with a Vermont’s main battery.

9 minutes ago, Dudefella said:

Subs have changed the feel of the game in co-op. It’s simply not fun with subs, IMO. It’s admirable that you guys want to see them in the game, but they’re just wrong for what makes that mode fun. 

The recipe for fun is all wonky because there are too many ingredients.

Some might say this is a complaint about not being able to slaughter all the bots without having to really worry about getting shot back at.

I don’t worry in any case; I don’t consider Co-op subs a serious threat.

9 minutes ago, Dudefella said:

Additionally, Dutch cruisers are almost impossible to practice with in co-op because the bots avoid the targeting square before the planes even show up.

If you can hit bots, hitting human players should be easier. Because of target fixation, humans are less likely to actively dodge.

5 minutes ago, Ellyh said:

The best thing for co-op would be to programmed the last remaining sub to surface when outnumbered 3-1 or worse as there is nothing more frustrating than waiting 4-5 mins for it to surface or to cap out when there is nothing anyone can do to find/kill the sub.

Everything you need to know to find the sub should be available on the mini map.

Otherwise the situation is no different than in Randoms or Ranked where the last Red player runs and hides.

If you want the game to end, then cap out.

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8 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Some might say this is a complaint about not being able to slaughter all the bots without having to really worry about getting shot back at.

I don’t worry in any case; I don’t consider Co-op subs a serious threat

No, they’re not a threat, I agree. They’re not fun.

If someone changed a game of corn bags to include a water balloon of dog poop for each turn, I wouldn’t feel like it was a harder game to play, it just wouldn’t be any fun. 

The ping mechanic, homing torps, “cannot shoot that target”, missing ASW,  It feels like a water balloon full of poop.

 

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it would be better if they limited the combination of subs and DD to a total of 5, which can be made-up of at most 3 DD and 2 Subs.

 

The also need to drastically bump up the bot gun accuracy to punish DD's especially and ships in general, as the bot gun accuracy is a joke at the moment and needs to go back to how it was last year.

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1 hour ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Maybe for me it’s just a matter of raw experience.

I don’t personally consider even three subs in Co-op any kind of a threat.

I suppose there have been games were I’ve not done much; but that’s were raw experience and all the resultant accumulated credits comes into play again; “Meh, whatever. Next game.”

In pretty much any ship, at any tier; kill the surface bots, then start hunting down the subs. In pretty much all cases the mini-map tells you exactly where to look.

The only real variation is in using sub hydro to flush Bot subs out, or circling planes to spot them when they eventually surface. For that matter, I have CQE kills against subs from my carriers.

While other players are kvetching about ‘Where are the subs?’ and ‘stupid subs.’ I’m usually going right to them.

It’s called using HE and your guns.

My first sub kill this time around was with a Vermont’s main battery.

Some might say this is a complaint about not being able to slaughter all the bots without having to really worry about getting shot back at.

I don’t worry in any case; I don’t consider Co-op subs a serious threat.

If you can hit bots, hitting human players should be easier. Because of target fixation, humans are less likely to actively dodge.

Everything you need to know to find the sub should be available on the mini map.

Otherwise the situation is no different than in Randoms or Ranked where the last Red player runs and hides.

If you want the game to end, then cap out.

This ^^^^

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1 hour ago, Dudefella said:

No, they’re not a threat, I agree. They’re not fun.

If someone changed a game of corn bags to include a water balloon of dog poop for each turn, I wouldn’t feel like it was a harder game to play, it just wouldn’t be any fun. 

The ping mechanic, homing torps, “cannot shoot that target”, missing ASW,  It feels like a water balloon full of poop.

lol, a bit of a rude comparison perhaps, but understandable.

I suppose I've just been in the game so long I'm numb to a lot of things others have issues with.

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2 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I suppose I've just been in the game so long I'm numb to a lot of things others have issues with.

No that's totally okay!  AND if anything it's totally legit that long time players want to see new zip added to their miracle whip and interesting new mechanics added to WoWS.  I just don't think that subs, as they are, are right for the game but especially not right for any modes where fun is expected.  :)  /opinion

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As you guys concluded, a lot of the points here are personal opinions from either side. It's difficult to respond to that without looking at the data.

However, I do agree with the point that having a battle artificially extended just because there is one sub left somewhere is not good, because it doesn't really contribute anything to player experience in this mode. We'll do our best to address that aspect.

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3 hours ago, z9_ said:

Once they get the data they're after, they'll probably combine subs w DDs
for numbers limits, because that seems the most logical.

Still need a ratio. Otherwise you end up with 4 subs and no DDs (or possibly any ships with ASW)

 

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Subs are just not fun to play or play against.

Find myself wasting a lot of time skipping between tiers looking for 0 subs in queue.

Catching games with 4 DDs & 2 Subs, just want to ctrl alt del and kill the wows thread in task manager.

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19 minutes ago, SlightlyComatose said:

Subs are just not fun to play or play against.

Find myself wasting a lot of time skipping between tiers looking for 0 subs in queue.

Catching games with 4 DDs & 2 Subs, just want to ctrl alt del and kill the wows thread in task manager.

Thank you.

It’s basically like trying to field a dodgeball game in a school gymnasium, except each team has a extra kid just walking around in the classroom halls with a blindfold on.  
 

You can’t throw them out and they’ll never find each other.

Who would want to sign up for that hair-raising fun? Spend an hour waiting for derpy McBlindfold to just give up or the ref to call the game on account of time. 
 

Weeeeeeee.:cap_tea:

 

Edited by Dudefella
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20 minutes ago, SlightlyComatose said:

Subs are just not fun to play or play against.

Find myself wasting a lot of time skipping between tiers looking for 0 subs in queue.

Catching games with 4 DDs & 2 Subs, just want to ctrl alt del and kill the wows thread in task manager.

just think of the amount of extra games you could do and ALL that extra sub killing XP you could get if you just adapted and played without all that feckless silliness of skipping between tiers looking for 0 subs in queue.

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There's one change that has to happen for subs to ever have a place in co-op games- or anywhere else, really: make hydro able to detect subs within its action radius. Period. You want to stay undetected in a sub, avoid hydro-equipped ships like DDs avoid RADAR cruisers. That's what all of the acoustic detection technologies represented by hydro were invented for: detecting submarines. It makes no sense at all to finally add the type of enemy that a device was invented to detect, and then make that the one thing it can't detect. That's like having armor-piercing shells that can't, y'know, pierce armor. It's silly.

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8 hours ago, Thegooorooo said:

If we are going to have subs in coop, can we move to a 12 v 12 format for the coop games? I feel this would be so much better than playing 9v9 with 3 of those subs.

 

Yes, that would be a perfect solution 

Edited by comtedumas

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7 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Maybe for me it’s just a matter of raw experience.

I don’t personally consider even three subs in Co-op any kind of a threat.

I suppose there have been games were I’ve not done much; but that’s were raw experience and all the resultant accumulated credits comes into play again; “Meh, whatever. Next game.”

In pretty much any ship, at any tier; kill the surface bots, then start hunting down the subs. In pretty much all cases the mini-map tells you exactly where to look.

The only real variation is in using sub hydro to flush Bot subs out, or circling planes to spot them when they eventually surface. For that matter, I have CQE kills against subs from my carriers.

While other players are kvetching about ‘Where are the subs?’ and ‘stupid subs.’ I’m usually going right to them.

It’s called using HE and your guns.

My first sub kill this time around was with a Vermont’s main battery.

Some might say this is a complaint about not being able to slaughter all the bots without having to really worry about getting shot back at.

I don’t worry in any case; I don’t consider Co-op subs a serious threat.

If you can hit bots, hitting human players should be easier. Because of target fixation, humans are less likely to actively dodge.

Everything you need to know to find the sub should be available on the mini map.

Otherwise the situation is no different than in Randoms or Ranked where the last Red player runs and hides.

If you want the game to end, then cap out.

I know exactly what your saying about the mini map...it's easy to know where to start looking by that...but still it takes forever sometimes for them to surface & (surprise surprise surprise) they always do right after you pass them up & instantly dive again before you can get more than a couple shots on them & you have to spin a U turn to be able to depth charge them...& as soon as you get in position for that they surface again & either somebody else takes them out right before somebody else would have finished a cap they've spent the last 58 seconds working on or the score goes over right before anybody can kill them...

Especially if there was a bot CV that needed to be hunted down... & not because somebody was actually practicing CVs & pulled a bot CV into the match (I don't mind those)...but because MM decided a green bot CV was needed to extend the match even longer...

They really need to remove green bot CVs from MM until the sub testing is over (well...after I'm done farming my 120 plane kills in Atlanta tomorrow...they can stay until then I guess ;-p).

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos
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9 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I don’t worry in any case; I don’t consider Co-op subs a serious threat.

Generally, no.  But every now and then you get one that came in it to win it, and it can be quite a surprise.  It's very rare, given I've only seen it twice all patch, but it's impressive when one of the bot sea pickles decides it doesn't like the cut of your bits and it wants revenge.  

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