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Skyfaller

Feedback : Subs. Score awarded: 40/100 - needs serious improvement

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WG,

 

It is unfortunate you chose to not only use but keep using the nonsense of homing torps. Since we are obviously stuck with this cognitive abortion then perhaps you will for once listen to feedback to make subs functional and playable. 

 

Issues:

1- As a stealth based unit, they have poor stealth and they simply do not perform better than a destroyer when it comes to torpedoes. Or dealing damage. Or scouting. Remind me again what is the point of submarines?

2- Poor capability to displace around the map due to mediocre surface speed. See, if a sub cannot flank or sneak past the opposing light vessel screen it is then left with only one option: to engage enemies frontally (figuratively speaking). We can see this both in co-op and Ranked. A sub simply does not have the time to put itself into a position to engage a BB or high value target because its slower than most cruisers. By the time it can, the target is either dead by gunfire from your team or it has moved away. 

3- Poor damage unless you double-ping citadel...and even then its not consistent. In fact the whole 'citadel damage' based on number of pings is absurd. 

4- Dive time is too short to allow a sub to even try to move under picket/light ships to reach the heavies. You barely have enough to GET to the target but none to exit the area. What you have then, is kamikaze subs.

5- Damage control removing sub pings makes no sense. It provides too easy a means to completely remove the sub's ability to strike since it can at any moment, just break the homing ping. Carriers as targets are, for some reason, been given insane defense against subs by virtue of the automatic long duration damage control.

6- Aircraft spotting sub unless its at max depth is ridiculous given the airplanes come into view at a range where its too late to dive and reach that depth before they spot you. 

7- It is very difficult to have situational awareness of what is under the sub due to the camera POV. 

 

Solution suggested:

 

A- The most critical thing to fix is the ability for the sub to displace on the map. For this the surface speed needs to be increased to match the speediest destroyers. 42kn max at T10 sounds functional. HOWEVER.. the underwater speed should be dropped to balance this.

Periscope depth = 3/4th speed

Operational depth= Half speed

Max depth = 1/3rd speed. 

 

B- Stealth : Subs should all be visible to surface at 4km and periscope at 2km. Under 20m depth they should not be detectable unless ship comes inside 2km. Aircraft should not spot subs under 20m. 

 

C- Dive time needs to be changed from a static indicator into a dynamic one. It is a battery level so why not tie it to engine speed setting with an additional modified based on Depth?

- At surface there is no drain and battery recharges. On a 1:1 ratio (1 second on surface recharges 1 second diving time). 

- Any time sub is under water, including periscope depth, the battery level will drop based on the engine setting. Zero speed still drains the battery but minimally. Depth charge hits will also deplete battery by small amounts. 

- Subs should have enough battery to stay submerged the whole battle timer if moving at 1/3rd engine setting the whole time. 

- Battery Drain per Depth: Every 10m adds 2% battery drain on top of the drain caused by the engine setting.  At 80m the battery is draining at an additional 16%

 

D- Armament Effectiveness & PING mechanics: Remove the 2nd ping needed to do citadel damage. Replace with:

- Pings will only tag the target and cause the torpedo to steer itself for 10 seconds. After that the torpedo will cease homing. This will require long range shots to have a 2nd ping to update the homing OR the sub player can just keep pinging the target so the torps keep updating. 

- If torps hit the center area of ship (broadside citadel area, center) then it will be a citadel strike. Bow/aft wont. 

- No need to increase torpedo damage but do need to increase the chances of flooding to be guaranteed floods from sub torps. 

- Pings cannot be removed with damage control. However, the 10 second homing does provide ample chances for the surface ship to change direction. He just needs to count 10 seconds after he has been pinged then change. 

- Sub Pings should have a re-use timer of 5 seconds minimum. This way the ping homing timer has a chance to expire between the homing timer goes to zero and the new ping travels the distance to hit target. 

- CVs should be given a consumable on their planes to call depth charge air attack just like BBs do. This way the CV can hunt subs and cannot defend from subs unless it has planes over it. 

 

E- Camera POV

- On surface and periscope the camera POV should be identical to how it is when sub spawns into the battle map but the battle has no begun. Aka zoomed out. 

- Camera should be allowed to dive under water at last 40 degrees from surface so player can quick-spot the underwater terrain before diving. 

- Once sub is under periscope depth, the camera POV should zoom in to the current camera location/distance. 

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You have some good points there. As a someone who’s pulled a couple krakens in subs so far in ranked, there’s some things I don’t agree with. I’ve only run out of battery a few times so far so that seems good and the times I did was because of CVs. 
 

Stealth seems fine. There’s been whole games where the only enemy that spots me is the other sub. Meanwhile I’m raining death from operating depth or periscope depth depending on which targets are near.

Damage control ping removal is fine. Either bait the usage by double pinging and launch when cleared or just reping. Smart players time it well.

Plane spotting is a bit annoying but I get it. It causes more battery burn for sure and can be dealt if in range of BBs who can drop on you. This is the one reason I think CVs shouldn’t get depth charges. This is their sub utility here. Spot  and cause to burn battery over game then just bomb it. It’s happened to me.

Yeah camera issues are annoying.I like your suggestions there.

I do feel like players still haven’t learned how to fight against them yet a a whole. Pings not being removed, rushing subs in BBs with no ASW. And sub players are getting better which makes them overperform on paper. I kill DDs, cruisers, BBs, and other subs no problem. Each sub has different roles though. US are snipers and are easier to keep hidden with the long range. Germans are attack subs who get more stealth but require it less. I feel the US subs though faster on water, are sitting ducks at depth and require not being seen to have a good game. Germans can kind of dance around DCs and have good enough reload to fight even smaller ships.

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Not trying to get confrontational... subs are a minor annoyance at best, I've killed many of them with all classes ('cept CV's) yet I've only been sunk by subs ...less than a handfull of times... Annoying, yes, fun to hunt and kill? yes. They don't really change the game dynamics all that much... I'm extremely neutral about them.

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1st problem is, submarines should not be a destroyer replacement. Speeding them up would do exactly that.

Subs are too fast as it is. Regardless of what ever fictitious speeds they're running at, they don't feel like the patient, stealthy hunters they actually were.

Slow them down to 30 knots at tier 10, 26 at tier 8, and 22 at tier 6 and you might be onto something. Cut the speed to 2/3's when submerged and keep it simple. Still to fast to be historic, but it will feel better.

As far as DCP cleansing a Ping, it's just one more thing for that all important cooldown to be used on. either the sub can bait the DCP, or hit a ship that has just has burned it's.

Sorting out the disaster called cameras on subs, I'll agree the UI needs a lot of work with subs.

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Sadly you are only looking at things from the sub side, ASW needs to be viable so subs need to be much more findable than people want or the game breaks at a fundamental level. As we have seen over the years with nerfs to open water stealth firing, torpedo boat DDs and the proliferation of Radar and Hydro wargaming doesn't want functionally invisible attackers dominating the large surface ships that provide the fantasy for the majority of their players.

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As it relates to Co-op only; (refuse to play new Ranked.)

1. However the stealth compares, I’ve not had much trouble with getting spotted in subs.

2. Displacing can be an issue; though it can be mitigated to a small extent by map awareness.

3. Damage I’m not so sure about, though I agree it can be weird at times.

4. Stay on the surface unless spotted. Use your torpedo’s range, especially with US subs. Personally, haven’t had much issue with dive time, especially as I’ve gained experience.

5. Don’t currently have any particular opinion concerning pings, outside their inconsistent effect against other subs. As far as carriers go, either use the normal reticle, or just spot them for others to sink.

6. Spotting hasn’t been an issue, as I said; but aircraft spotting has been ??? occasionally.

7. Agree.

A. Sub speed is beyond suspension of disbelief already, that’s even worse.

B. No opinion.

C. Wouldn’t disagree.

D. No opinion; though that sounds reasonable.

E. A bit better camera ability would be nice.

25 minutes ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

I do feel like players still haven’t learned how to fight against them yet a a whole.

Again, just Co-op, but learning. As always, map awareness can be key.

25 minutes ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

I kill DDs, cruisers, BBs, and other subs no problem.

Subs are seriously wth?

I ping red subs, which my understanding is that means they’re on the same or close level, yet the pings either outright miss, or seem to just pass right through the targeted sub.

Right now, I’ve had better ‘success’ at killing subs by just diving, spotting them with my underwater hydro, and letting surface ship kill them.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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48 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

obviously stuck with this cognitive abortion

Well no reason to continue reading... lol

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I hear I thought this was OP complaints about subs been OP but it isn't :Smile_hiding:I agree with your assessment on subs :Smile_honoring: Also unless you are not paying attention and sailing in straight line homing torps are a joke really :Smile_teethhappy: Dive time is meh needs buffing really :fish_palm:

Edited by LastRemnant

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7 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Subs are seriously wth?

I ping red subs, which my understanding is that means they’re on the same or close level, yet the pings either outright miss, or seem to just pass right through the targeted sub.

Right now, I’ve had better ‘success’ at killing subs by just diving, spotting them with my underwater hydro, and letting surface ship kill them.

Can’t be too close or torps won’t track or change depth. Going up and down while minimizing profile is the way to dodge homing torps in a sub.if you can hit them broadside you can land a dev strike with double ping. But the distance is key just like sniping from operating depth. You can ping subs at any depth it’s just if you’re too close and they’re on different plane it can’t hit. 

Edited by KnifeInUrNeck

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Solution suggested:

A- The most critical thing to fix is the ability for the sub to displace on the map. For this the surface speed needs to be increased to match the speediest destroyers. 42kn max at T10 sounds functional. HOWEVER.. the underwater speed should be dropped to balance this.

Periscope depth = 3/4th speed

Operational depth= Half speed

Max depth = 1/3rd speed. 

Really disagree on this one, speeds are already difficult to digest for more "traditionalist" players. From a game play perspective I feel they are adequate for the role, Subs are not really flankers unless the flank develop itself, in a way I feel they play a lot like USN standard BBs: You play as pivot in a central position.

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

B- Stealth : Subs should all be visible to surface at 4km and periscope at 2km. Under 20m depth they should not be detectable unless ship comes inside 2km. Aircraft should not spot subs under 20m. 

I don't think their stealth is much of a problem (imo they could use a tiny bit better surface concealment tho), the real issue is periscope vision range... being outspotted by DDs while at periscope depth shouldn't be a thing.

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

C- Dive time needs to be changed from a static indicator into a dynamic one. It is a battery level so why not tie it to engine speed setting with an additional modified based on Depth?

- At surface there is no drain and battery recharges. On a 1:1 ratio (1 second on surface recharges 1 second diving time). 

- Any time sub is under water, including periscope depth, the battery level will drop based on the engine setting. Zero speed still drains the battery but minimally. Depth charge hits will also deplete battery by small amounts. 

- Subs should have enough battery to stay submerged the whole battle timer if moving at 1/3rd engine setting the whole time. 

- Battery Drain per Depth: Every 10m adds 2% battery drain on top of the drain caused by the engine setting.  At 80m the battery is draining at an additional 16%

Variable battery consumption might be interesting but maybe an unnecessary complication. Having enough battery to last a full match is just plain wrong and I hope it never becomes a feature.

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

D- Armament Effectiveness & PING mechanics: Remove the 2nd ping needed to do citadel damage. Replace with:

- Pings will only tag the target and cause the torpedo to steer itself for 10 seconds. After that the torpedo will cease homing. This will require long range shots to have a 2nd ping to update the homing OR the sub player can just keep pinging the target so the torps keep updating. 

- If torps hit the center area of ship (broadside citadel area, center) then it will be a citadel strike. Bow/aft wont. 

- No need to increase torpedo damage but do need to increase the chances of flooding to be guaranteed floods from sub torps. 

- Pings cannot be removed with damage control. However, the 10 second homing does provide ample chances for the surface ship to change direction. He just needs to count 10 seconds after he has been pinged then change. 

- Sub Pings should have a re-use timer of 5 seconds minimum. This way the ping homing timer has a chance to expire between the homing timer goes to zero and the new ping travels the distance to hit target. 

- CVs should be given a consumable on their planes to call depth charge air attack just like BBs do. This way the CV can hunt subs and cannot defend from subs unless it has planes over it. 

 I see 2 major issues with the ping/home mechanic.

1- There's no viable alternative, all meaningful damage goes through pings. There should be an option for dumbfire traditional torps.

2- Double ping does Cit + increased damage. This is bad and just reinforces point 1.

I would keep the double ping as a skill check but instead of alpha damage, it should buff hit consistency. The second ping should improve the guidance in some way. 

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

E- Camera POV

- On surface and periscope the camera POV should be identical to how it is when sub spawns into the battle map but the battle has no begun. Aka zoomed out. 

- Camera should be allowed to dive under water at last 40 degrees from surface so player can quick-spot the underwater terrain before diving. 

- Once sub is under periscope depth, the camera POV should zoom in to the current camera location/distance. 

Valid point.

Edited by ArIskandir

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2 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

 

Solution suggested:

 

A- The most critical thing to fix is the ability for the sub to displace on the map. For this the surface speed needs to be increased to match the speediest destroyers. 42kn max at T10 sounds functional. HOWEVER.. the underwater speed should be dropped to balance this.

Periscope depth = 3/4th speed

Operational depth= Half speed

Max depth = 1/3rd speed. 

 

B- Stealth : Subs should all be visible to surface at 4km and periscope at 2km. Under 20m depth they should not be detectable unless ship comes inside 2km. Aircraft should not spot subs under 20m. 

 

 

I have major issues with most of your suggestions, but your detection reduction suggestion would absolutely break the game for destroyers and I mean totally break... it's a complete non-starter.  DDs would not be able to approach caps without getting perma spotted.... especially if your speed suggestions were implemented.   Subs would become the new cap contesting class.  I'm sure the player base would be thrilled with that change.

...and on the subject of speed... 42kts outruns the majority of T10 DD on boost and with speed flag.  Really?  I'd like to have some of what you are smoking... and what about those poor Vermonts that still can't get away from a sub at operating depth...

Edited by YouSatInGum

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1 hour ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

Can’t be too close or torps won’t track or change depth. Going up and down while minimizing profile is the way to dodge homing torps in a sub.if you can hit them broadside you can land a dev strike with double ping. But the distance is key just like sniping from operating depth. You can ping subs at any depth it’s just if you’re too close and they’re on different plane it can’t hit. 

That I am aware of; it’s just that I’ve actually managed to ping or torp underwater subs so few times, it hasn't ‘clicked’ with me how exactly to get it to work consistently.

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Really disagree on this one, speeds are already difficult to digest for more "traditionalist" players. From a game play perspective I feel they are adequate for the role, Subs are not really flankers unless the flank develop itself, in a way I feel they play a lot like USN standard BBs: You play as pivot in a central position.

Interesting perspective, and it kind of fits with what I’ve been doing...

Move up, shoot until the Reds go away, move to assist where you can.

Quote

I don't think their stealth is much of a problem (imo they could use a tiny bit better surface concealment tho), the real issue is periscope vision range... being outspotted by DDs while at periscope depth shouldn't be a thing.

As I’ve said in other threads, spotting hasn’t been much of an issue for me, but your destroyer comment would explain some of the wth?!? times I’ve been spotted.

Quote

Variable battery consumption might be interesting but maybe an unnecessary complication. Having enough battery to last a full match is just plain wrong and I hope it never becomes a feature.

Agree.

My MO has been to stay on the surface, always, unless at risk of being spotted. Once I started doing that, I stopped having to worry about my battery life.

Yeah, I occasionally run out, but not enough to be bothered by it.

Quote

 I see 2 major issues with the ping/home mechanic.

1- There's no viable alternative, all meaningful damage goes through pings. There should be an option for dumbfire traditional torps.

Especially underwater.

Having said that; I think the ping mechanic is the only way WG could figure out to deal with underwater 3D combat between subs.

Quote

2- Double ping does Cit + increased damage. This is bad and just reinforces point 1.

I would keep the double ping as a skill check but instead of alpha damage, it should buff hit consistency. The second ping should improve the guidance in some way.

Yeah, reload’s pretty quick for the most part, I’d be happy with increased hit chance; and the lack of the QUACK! citadels would give the kvetchers one less thing to gripe about.

In all seriousness; I hated subs in the past with a passion. The current version isn’t too bad.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet
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1 hour ago, YouSatInGum said:

...and on the subject of speed... 42kts outruns the majority of T10 DD on boost and with speed flag.  Really?  I'd like to have some of what you are smoking... and what about those poor Vermonts that still can't get away from a sub at operating depth...

It sounds really fun to play a 33 knot Tallinn with no heal, 900 meter turning circle, and no viable way of damaging submarines against a tier 10 sub that goes 10 knots faster than you, outspots you by 9 km, perma lights you for all the battleships on its team, and shoots you with homing torpedoes that you can't even try to throw off with dcp.

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4 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

C- Dive time needs to be changed from a static indicator into a dynamic one. It is a battery level so why not tie it to engine speed setting with an additional modified based on Depth?

- At surface there is no drain and battery recharges. On a 1:1 ratio (1 second on surface recharges 1 second diving time). 

- Any time sub is under water, including periscope depth, the battery level will drop based on the engine setting. Zero speed still drains the battery but minimally. Depth charge hits will also deplete battery by small amounts. 

- Subs should have enough battery to stay submerged the whole battle timer if moving at 1/3rd engine setting the whole time.  

- Battery Drain per Depth: Every 10m adds 2% battery drain on top of the drain caused by the engine setting.  At 80m the battery is draining at an additional 16%

 

 

 

I've quoted the entire section on Dive time because I don't want to appear to be taking anything out of context. I want to address the bold section:

I don't think you have thought this through completely.

Currently there are a lot of ships which lack any means of attacking a submarine which is submerged. The entire US  cruiser line for example ... the only way to attack a submarine from one of those ships is to wait for it to surface. And you're proposing to remove the need for a submarine to surface if it doesn't want to?

At this point in time the only upside of seeing 'IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT TARGET' is the fact that we know that it has to surface eventually, so from my perspective the idea of a sub being able to remain submerged for the entirety of a match is not going to make the game better.

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To address the concerns raised above:

 

1- The sub needs to rapidly displace on the map. This is not even a point of discussion, its a requirement. The highly limited dive time available (and yes, even with the timer I suggest you need to understand that the underwater speed and depth drains it quicker so you will NOT have a speedy underwater boat with long duration battery) means the sub HAS to position itself for an attack run. It is no different than how destroyers need to do this given chucking torpedoes at bows of ships is not going to reward you with much. 

2- All surface ships SHOULD have ASW of some kind. My post is to improve subs primarily.... but there is no doubt WG dropped the ball big time with surface ship ASW as well.

3- The 'no DC the ping tag off' is not a big loss to the surface ships given that unless the torpedoes hit them from broadside they won't do much damage. The best defense is the same as DD torps coming in: turn towards them. 

 

-Bow--___CENTER____--Aft--   

 torps need to hit the center. This means the ping has to be in the center. Since the ping is highlighted upon the surface ship so he knows he has been pinged, that is an instant call to TURN the ship.

 

4- Stealth and surface speed: A sub visible at 4km with ~42kn at T10 max is not going to be running away from DDs. Why? DDs at T10 can be as stealthy as 5.6km and the worst ~7km which means there is a 1 to 3km gap in which the sub can spot the DD ... and a DD moving at 32+kn will easily cover the distance to spot the sub long before the sub can even turn 180 to 'run' away. After that, a sub cannot outrun shellfire nor can it outrun a DD coming towards it while at 3/4ths speed periscope or slower if sub goes deeper (not to mention the huge battery drain of doing so). It is in fact no different than if a Shimakaze spots a Khaba or Kleber with just ~2-3k m gap before Shima is detected... unless shima is already sailing away from them, chances are they will be spotted in a matter of seconds. 

Sub at periscope running at 'full speed' (3/4th) drains its battery badly because its essentially 'max' speed for it at that depth. Thats why the sub has high surface speed... to displace, position itself , approach and then submerge and crawl at lower submerged speeds towards target. 

 

Of course, sub torpedo ranges would need to be reduced if the surface speed is increased. It is a bit silly to see a USN with 14km range torps ... I am thinking more of no sub having more than 8km range torps so part of their gameplay is the underwater stalking. 

Edit: Oh, and yes, 1 sub per team max in MM. 

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If subs go 42 knots on the surface with 4 km concealment, it makes DDs completely obsolete for spotting. It doesn't matter whether a DD can hypothetically close the range with a sub, it gets outspotted by 2 km min and eats it from the sub's team while the sub can just dive if the DD gets close.

Also no reason to bring DDs for ASW when the best way to kill subs is the BB airstrike.

 

3 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

you will NOT have a speedy underwater boat with long duration battery

Literally who cares, why would the sub be underwater when it does 42 knots with 4 km concealment surfaced?

 

3 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

Since the ping is highlighted upon the surface ship so he knows he has been pinged, that is an instant call to TURN the ship.

just TURN broadside while perma spotted in front of the enemy BBs to avoid citadels from 60 second reload homing torpedoes from an unkillable 42 knot ship

You still take 10k damage from the homing torpedoes but who cares, you TURNed

Edited by 4HizensTotalLandscaping
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