Subs in Ranked: probably should have tabled that idea

[guns_at_last_light]

WG. Bubbie. Consider pumping the brakes on pushing subs in Ranked. You already are in a PR minefield. 

• Too few players have been able to play subs, and they have little to no idea how they work
• It isn't a class of ship that everyone has access to, making it unfair
• It is a shiny new class of ship, which can attract players who were already unskilled in the game and thus making them even more of a liability
• The team size is already small enough. Having 2 subs per side just made combat that much more boring

 

 

[teddy_striker]

At least they can still be avoided in random battles.  Just played a few ranked and I think I'm going to skip this season.

[ProfessorLumpy]

I'd much rather they were in randoms. Trying to learn them in ranked is awful. The teams are too small, everything is thrown off. It's just terrible.

[slider37]

Just played my first ranked game. It was... disorienting. Enemy ships around you, planes above you, and a sub near you. 

[Tzarevitch]

There isn't much of a choice. They are going to introduce them somewhere. Ranked is the only other option besides throwing them into the deep end with full randoms. Also, they have been available in co-op for over a week. People had chances to practice the mechanics. 

[KnifeInUrNeck]

I like how people’s’ genius plan is to avoid them instead of try them or learn to counter them. They avoid every chance to learn their mechanics and weaknesses. They will then rage when they come on to randoms and violate them. Knowing subs are inevitable, I’ve been trying to learn them every chance I get.

[iRA6E]

They are banking on the desire to play ranked in an effort to get some data I suppose?    I'm sure Random battles are their main concern so looks like they are trying to make balance adjustments before dropping them there?  I played a handful of games in bronze ranked, mostly in subs,  I still have a feeling they are overtuned and will be very strong for skilled players.   But it didn't seem a terrible fit so far?   Not sure anyone knew exactly what they were doing?    Games seemed competitive,  we'll see.   

[barbaroja_Ar]

10 hours ago, slider37 said:

Just played my first ranked game. It was... disorienting. Enemy ships around you, planes above you, and a sub near you. 

Sounds like an orgy, you should be having fun

[SKurj]

shows you how much value wg places on ranked

[paradat]

Seems like a normal step right before Randoms. 

Many rounds of testing in the PTS > Coop > Ranked > Randoms . Seems like a natural progression to me. They learned a lot from the CV rework mistakes. This is a much slower and logical roll out.

 

[LeiTbadDream]

In the absence of people who want to test them, they impose them.

That is, you test it or you test it. Whether you like it or not.

[lallave]

14 hours ago, guns_at_last_light said:

WG. Bubbie. Consider pumping the brakes on pushing subs in Ranked. You already are in a PR minefield. 

• Too few players have been able to play subs, and they have little to no idea how they work
• It isn't a class of ship that everyone has access to, making it unfair
• It is a shiny new class of ship, which can attract players who were already unskilled in the game and thus making them even more of a liability
• The team size is already small enough. Having 2 subs per side just made combat that much more boring

 

 

Played a ranked the day and Cachalot took top honors with 3 kills. The other sub was a no show for all intents and purposes. But there are BB's that are no shows for all intents and purposes unless you consider hiding behind an island for the entire game strategy.

[Skpstr]

2 hours ago, KnifeInUrNeck said:

I like how people’s’ genius plan is to avoid them instead of try them or learn to counter them. They avoid every chance to learn their mechanics and weaknesses. They will then rage when they come on to randoms and violate them. Knowing subs are inevitable, I’ve been trying to learn them every chance I get.

The thing is though, as far as every individual is concerned, they're only inevitable if you keep playing.

You have to consider that some people want nothing to do with subs, and the "testing" they are doing is to see if they can more or less ignore subs, (similar to CVs) and still enjoy the game.

 

[juliet7bravo]

Did they patch subs?  Just bothered to look at Catchalot/U-96 stats...surface speed 25 knots, submerged 15 knots.  Isn't that a change from when first released?

[RainbowFartingUnicorn]

I actually only see about half the battles so far with subs in them, and only maybe one in five with two subs per side. 

I have also never seen a sub do better than fifth of seven in terms of XP at the end of a match.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

The data for subs need PVP data.

1.  Co-Op nor even Operations don't give that.  Those 2 modes of play are nothing at all like the reality of any of the PVP modes.

2.  WG specifically stated they did not want to fully release them "as is" for test in Random Battles, which is the core of the game.

3.  PTS which did have PVP has the problem in that very few players are actually on PTS.

 

So, with PVE not giving the data WG wants, and WG not wanting to test in completely wide open release in Random Battles, guess which modes are left?  Clan Battles and Ranked.  CB is niche, but Ranked is more populated.  The choice becomes obvious.

[DrHolmes52]

2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The data for subs need PVP data.

1.  Co-Op nor even Operations don't give that.  Those 2 modes of play are nothing at all like the reality of any of the PVP modes.

2.  WG specifically stated they did not want to fully release them "as is" for test in Random Battles, which is the core of the game.

3.  PTS which did have PVP has the problem in that very few players are actually on PTS.

 

So, with PVE not giving the data WG wants, and WG not wanting to test in completely wide open release in Random Battles, guess which modes are left?  Clan Battles and Ranked.  CB is niche, but Ranked is more populated.  The choice becomes obvious.

I think the only reason they released them in Co-op is to give people a risk free (from WG's perspective) location to work out mechanics (driving/pinging).

[HazeGrayUnderway]

1 minute ago, DrHolmes52 said:

I think the only reason they released them in Co-op is to give people a risk free (from WG's perspective) location to work out mechanics (driving/pinging).

Thatt's pretty much it.  Hell, you can't even take subs to practice in Training Room.

[DrHolmes52]

Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's pretty much it.  Hell, you can't even take subs to practice in Training Room.

I know.  I tried.

[MBRicochet]

I've found subs in ranked to be...bad. Nearly every sub I've seen has hauled off to chase the CV. Absolutely bottom barrel contribution. On the flip side having a good sub is a terror. They utterly prevent cruisers and BBs from doing anything in cap points. It is basically making DDs even more important as they are the best ships for countering subs. Especially BBs. You burn a dcp to not get cittorped and you burn to death. 

Been mostly playing cruisers but just watching how things play out has been sad so far.

[mushmouthmorton]

49 minutes ago, juliet7bravo said:

Did they patch subs?  Just bothered to look at Catchalot/U-96 stats...surface speed 25 knots, submerged 15 knots.  Isn't that a change from when first released?

Yes they did - There is a new underwater maneuvering section. They changed dive plane reactions, max dive and assent speeds and underwater speed

Salmon-- surfaced 31 knots  -- submerged  19 knots

But looks like Tier 10's stayed as they were

Weird

[Azanimefan]

52 minutes ago, MBRicochet said:

I've found subs in ranked to be...bad. Nearly every sub I've seen has hauled off to chase the CV. Absolutely bottom barrel contribution. On the flip side having a good sub is a terror. They utterly prevent cruisers and BBs from doing anything in cap points. It is basically making DDs even more important as they are the best ships for countering subs. Especially BBs. You burn a dcp to not get cittorped and you burn to death. 

Been mostly playing cruisers but just watching how things play out has been sad so far.

as one of those "good" players in subs (I've been playing them every chance i get in the PT and co-op for over a year now) i agree with this.  no one really knows how to handle them, most of the sub players are worse then the co-op bots.  and a good sub can completely control a cap point by itself; in a game with no CVs or competent DDs or SS.  a cv who focuses the SS will make it's life hell, a race to clear out all enemy ships for your team before your batteries are flat.  my hardest matches were against cv's who even paid me scant attention (many did not).  simply spotting a SS makes them basically worthless until they can find a way to hide again before they get sunk.  the CV doesn't even need to TRY to sink the sub to make it's life hell.  

and no, i'll probably not be rated a "good" sub captain in a few weeks to months once everyone knows how to play them and play against them, but i'm at the top of the curve right now.  and enjoying it.  

and yes, DDs scare the crapout of me.  I won't go near em, or push up if i know one is around. 

[juliet7bravo]

40 minutes ago, Azanimefan said:

as one of those "good" players in subs

How about starting a "How to play and play against subs" how-to thread?  Maybe they'll sticky it.

[MBRicochet]

Several things I've noticed playing subs in coop and observing the good subs vs the bad ones in ranked. Good subs act like pointers. This let's the DDs flank. The sub sails straight to the point and spots. They don't launch all their fish at once. They target bow in  BBs and cruisers. Ping, double, launch a pair of fish. They maximize dcp pressure on ships. It is better to launch a pair of fish every 30 seconds then to launch 2 pairs every 60 or whatever. You nullify any attempt to angle or bow tank. Treat your dive like a smoke screen. Stay close enough to friendlies that any DD going for you dies. Friendly BBs with depth charge planes will help you drive off any enemy sub when you sonar. Don't stray from support. Play like a sniper. Your goal is to spot and destroy big enemy ships so your DDs can hunt and kill enemy DDs/subs. You want to stay alive so you can sonar enemies subs as it is hard for other ships to root them out. 

My observations..German subs are better for ranked. They are stealthier on the surface, which let's you spot better, the torps reload independently which let's manage staggered launches better, and their sonar is flat better. Bette range and lasts longer. Let's you drive off and get enemy subs killed.

Alternatively the US boats seem to have better overall dps if they are able to use all their tubes. So if you can execute a turning pattern you can use your better range to hammer someone.

In short, Germans are better utility US is higher damage.

[ArIskandir]

21 minutes ago, MBRicochet said:

Several things I've noticed playing subs in coop and observing the good subs vs the bad ones in ranked. Good subs act like pointers. This let's the DDs flank. The sub sails straight to the point and spots. They don't launch all their fish at once. They target bow in  BBs and cruisers. Ping, double, launch a pair of fish. They maximize dcp pressure on ships. It is better to launch a pair of fish every 30 seconds then to launch 2 pairs every 60 or whatever. You nullify any attempt to angle or bow tank. Treat you dive like a smoke screen. Stay close enough to friendlies that any DD going for you dies. Friendly BBs with depth charge planes will help you drive off any enemy sub when you sonar. Don't stray from support. Play like a sniper. Your goal is to spot and destroy big enemy ships so your DDs can hunt and kill enemy DDs/subs. You want to stay alive so you can sonar enemies subs as it is hard for other ships to root them out. 

Very accurate description of Sub gameplay. Indeed you play a scout/sniper role. Sub need more varied armament options to be able to perform other roles.