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TheHolyAsdf

Modern Torpedo Defences

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Historically, torpedoes have demonstrated to be deadly in world war II and to counter it, ships would mostly either avoid it or let torpedo bulges tank the damage.

I was wondering, given torpedoes nowadays are now guided, if there are any modern countermeasures for a modern frigate or destroyer to deal with one. This can either by avoiding it, disrupting it, destroying it or tanking it.

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11 minutes ago, TheHolyAsdf said:

Historically, torpedoes have demonstrated to be deadly in world war II and to counter it, ships would mostly either avoid it or let torpedo bulges tank the damage.

I was wondering, given torpedoes nowadays are now guided, if there are any modern countermeasures for a modern frigate or destroyer to deal with one. This can either by avoiding it, disrupting it, destroying it or tanking it.


Submarines have used the following, over the years.
1.  Special coatings on the hull to reduce sonar ping effectiveness.
2.  Reduce the noise of the mechanical equipment used by the ship.  
3.  Special propeller designs, intended to make the propeller less noisy.  
5.  "Countermeasures".  
       5a. = special chemical bricks released into the water that emit bubbles and make lots of noise to mask the acoustic signature of the targeted vessel (and attract the torpedo to the brick instead of the ship or submarine).
       5b. = decoys = automated and self-propelled mechanical devices intended to provide an acoustic replica of a submarine and fool the torpedoes into hitting the decoy instead of the submarine.
6.  Using the underwater "terrain".
     6a.  Ocean water has layers of temperature and salinity.  If a submarine can hide above or below or perhaps even within a layer, then soundwaves may not detect them as efficiently.
     6b.  Underwater mountains, trenches and other terrain features can be used to block sonar pings. 
             Keep in mind, this can work both ways, and a surprise encounter could happen if two submarines come around the same corner at the same time and at the same depth.
     6c.  In movies, submarines have deliberately settled their hull onto the ocean floor.  This lets them hide by blending into the ocean floor's acoustic background. 
            The ship above the submarine only detects the ocean floor with their sonar, and can't discern the submarine.
            There are ocean exploration tools that could defeat this, nowadays.  Side-scan sonar arrays, for example.
7.  Magnetic Anomaly Detectors.  These devices work by finding the metal signature of a hull, instead of finding the noise made by a hull while it travels.
      Some submarines have developed equipment designed to defeat this, by sending out properly calibrated signals that jam the Magnetic Anomaly Detector's emissions and prevent it from getting a return signal.

Surface ships in modern navies know about all of the above technologies.  It is a question of what their particular navy's budget priorities might be, for procuring anti-torpedo countermeasures, in my opinion.

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Well, the first torpedo countermeasures in addition to evasion action was netting dropped over the side well away from the ship because torpedoes had very little speed if at all. It started as anti mine netting only it became more sophisticated.

Examples are the sides of ships like you see on tier 4 and below. They have poles attached to the ship in a diagonal pattern along the sides. It is to attach the netting, then drape it out away from the ship. It catches the torpedoes and they can be cut away.

Since torps were carried in small numbers in destroyers, it was an easy solution until torpedoes got faster.

Then the earliest bulkheads were made. But explosives and poor design showed that wasn't hardly working. If it did work, it was going to be a difficult to mitigate multiple hits. Anti flood systems would help. But again, it didn't stop a torpedo from ruining a ship.

Eventually, because most torpedoes run fairly shallow, it was discovered late in WW2 that you can force detonate a torpedo by shooting at it with rapid fire ordinances.

But it was a last ditch effort when the practice was done initially.

Development of a close in weapons system would change that. Radar and sonar guided weapons came into being. They would shoot at the torpedo. Some torpedoes were even notoriously radio frequency sensitive due to their detonators. And directed radio frequency worked until shielding was installed.

Eventually, decoy countermeasures were used to draw acoustic types away from the ship. The concept was: "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you." Make the countermeasures really loud. Louder than a ship's own acoustic signature.

Then the sonar guided delayed activated one's made things interesting. 

Those are the most deadly. Because they can be fired with sonar not activated on the guidance. The guidance is set at a distance to ensure detection and the torpedo not tracking back.

It is by far the most dangerous type in that by the time the high pitched screw sound (indicator of a torpedo inbound) is detected by the sonar operator, the ship has to evade and counter quickly.

The point defense systems usually deal with this. But whether it is 100% reliable is another matter. Countermeasures are possible prior to point defense. But it comes down to how many torpedoes are inbound and how long before the defense is overwhelmed.

It is that ratio that determines the battle. And the emphasis on early detection is key to mitigation. If you know earlier that it is coming, then you can react better to it.

Early detection usually reveals the ship or submarine in question. And once the attacker is on the defensive, then the tables turn.

ASW and surface warfare has evolved into a very sophisticated dance these days.

But I hear the USN can dance like no other.

Some navies do the waltz or the hop.

But the USN makes Gangnam style look like a wedding dance.

If you can't dance like that, then you won't win.😂🤣

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman
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Just a minor addition; keep in mind that many subs nowadays are capable of either launching SSMs from their torpedo tubes or have VLS. I don't know how much of a threat traditional torpedoes can be nowadays when you factor in all the ASW technology.

Edited by warheart1992

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3 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Just a minor addition; keep in mind that many subs nowadays are capable of either launching SSMs from their torpedo tubes or have VLS. I don't know how much of a threat traditional torpedoes can be nowadays when you factor in all the ASW technology.


When I played "Red Storm Rising", the submarine simulation game based upon Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October novel, one of the responses to a submarine launching missiles was to send ASW Helicopters to the launch position.

Spoiler


This link takes one to a site that lets a person play Red Storm Rising via a website.
https://playminigames.ru/en/game/red-storm-rising

A copy of the Game manual can be found here, so a person can learn the game's controls and features.
https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/docs.php?id=1339


Launching missiles reveals the Submarine's position to anyone with the capability to observe the launch area.
I imagine Submarines weigh their options.
Modern torpedoes can travel for several miles underwater. 
The submarine can remain undetected by a target, even an ASW ship, and the torpedo has the range to attack (even by taking a non-direct route, to approach the target from a vector which isn't a direct line back to the submarine).

The best counter to a submarine is another submarine.  Which is why task force groups tend to have submarines along as escorts.

Red Storm Rising is from the 1990's.  If someone knows of a more modern Submarine Warfare simulation game, I'd like to hear about it.  

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2 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:


When I played "Red Storm Rising", the submarine simulation game based upon Tom Clancy's Hunt for Red October novel, one of the responses to a submarine launching missiles was to send ASW Helicopters to the launch position.

  Reveal hidden contents


This link takes one to a site that lets a person play Red Storm Rising via a website.
https://playminigames.ru/en/game/red-storm-rising

A copy of the Game manual can be found here, so a person can learn the game's controls and features.
https://www.lemonamiga.com/games/docs.php?id=1339


Launching missiles reveals the Submarine's position to anyone with the capability to observe the launch area.
I imagine Submarines weigh their options.
Modern torpedoes can travel for several miles underwater. 
The submarine can remain undetected by a target, even an ASW ship, and the torpedo has the range to attack (even by taking a non-direct route, to approach the target from a vector which isn't a direct line back to the submarine).

The best counter to a submarine is another submarine.  Which is why task force groups tend to have submarines along as escorts.

Red Storm Rising is from the 1990's.  If someone knows of a more modern Submarine Warfare simulation game, I'd like to hear about it.  

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1600/Dangerous_Waters/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/Cold_Waters/

Have played Dangerous Waters, pretty good stuff. No idea on Cold Waters but is supposed to be a spiritual successor of Red Storm Rising.

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Just now, warheart1992 said:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1600/Dangerous_Waters/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/Cold_Waters/

Have played Dangerous Waters, pretty good stuff. No idea on Cold Waters but is supposed to be a spiritual successor of Red Storm Rising.

Thanks.

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2 hours ago, TheHolyAsdf said:

Historically, torpedoes have demonstrated to be deadly in world war II and to counter it, ships would mostly either avoid it or let torpedo bulges tank the damage.

I was wondering, given torpedoes nowadays are now guided, if there are any modern countermeasures for a modern frigate or destroyer to deal with one. This can either by avoiding it, disrupting it, destroying it or tanking it.

 

Towed array decoys.  Either you can put that on a separate winch and port, or along with your TAS.

 

Some examples.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/SLQ-25_Nixie

 

https://beandbyias.com/ValueAddition/RajyaSabhaDetail/10/MAAREECH - Anti Torpedo Decoy System (23 July 2020)?RajyaType=PolicyWatch

 

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/34303027/pla-navy-towed-array-and-acoustic-decoy-analysis-clash-of-arms

 

Other kinds of torpedo decoys are fired through decoy launchers for example.

 

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/16242/DCNS_Demos_Torpedo_Defence_Solution

 

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/33467/the-shadowy-world-of-submarine-and-ship-launched-torpedo-countermeasures-an-explainer

 

Edited by Eisennagel

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2 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

Those are the most deadly. Because they can be fired with sonar not activated on the guidance. The guidance is set at a distance to ensure detection and the torpedo not tracking back.

As famously seen in the Hunt for Red October.

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5 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1600/Dangerous_Waters/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/541210/Cold_Waters/

Have played Dangerous Waters, pretty good stuff. No idea on Cold Waters but is supposed to be a spiritual successor of Red Storm Rising.

I've played Cold Waters, I did not find it fun as the time compression and godly sensitive AI to any presence within torpedo range made it exceptionally difficult for me.  Even watched a form USN sonar operator play and he disliked it for those reasons.

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12 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:


Submarines have used the following, over the years.
1.  Special coatings on the hull to reduce sonar ping effectiveness.
2.  Reduce the noise of the mechanical equipment used by the ship.  
3.  Special propeller designs, intended to make the propeller less noisy.  
5.  "Countermeasures".  
       5a. = special chemical bricks released into the water that emit bubbles and make lots of noise to mask the acoustic signature of the targeted vessel (and attract the torpedo to the brick instead of the ship or submarine).
       5b. = decoys = automated and self-propelled mechanical devices intended to provide an acoustic replica of a submarine and fool the torpedoes into hitting the decoy instead of the submarine.
6.  Using the underwater "terrain".
     6a.  Ocean water has layers of temperature and salinity.  If a submarine can hide above or below or perhaps even within a layer, then soundwaves may not detect them as efficiently.
     6b.  Underwater mountains, trenches and other terrain features can be used to block sonar pings. 
             Keep in mind, this can work both ways, and a surprise encounter could happen if two submarines come around the same corner at the same time and at the same depth.
     6c.  In movies, submarines have deliberately settled their hull onto the ocean floor.  This lets them hide by blending into the ocean floor's acoustic background. 
            The ship above the submarine only detects the ocean floor with their sonar, and can't discern the submarine.
            There are ocean exploration tools that could defeat this, nowadays.  Side-scan sonar arrays, for example.
7.  Magnetic Anomaly Detectors.  These devices work by finding the metal signature of a hull, instead of finding the noise made by a hull while it travels.
      Some submarines have developed equipment designed to defeat this, by sending out properly calibrated signals that jam the Magnetic Anomaly Detector's emissions and prevent it from getting a return signal.

Surface ships in modern navies know about all of the above technologies.  It is a question of what their particular navy's budget priorities might be, for procuring anti-torpedo countermeasures, in my opinion.

 

1.  There is something called a Variable Depth Sonar, or VDS.   What it is an active sonar that can be lowered at various depths beneath the thermocline and salinity layers that a sub can hide under.   Whereas a TAS or Towed Array Sonar is passive, a VDS is active and pings.  The VDS can be attached along with a TAS on the same line or it can have a separate line and winch.  An example is here:  https://www.leonardodrs.com/media/3830/sna-brochure-vds-final-11jan2016.pdf

2.  Dipping sonar on helicopters work similarly to a VDS.

https://www.leonardodrs.com/media/3830/sna-brochure-vds-final-11jan2016.pdf

3.  Propeller designs are meant to control cavitation (forming bubbles) that not only can be heard but reduce the life of a propeller.  Various propeller designs are used:  Skewed, pump jet.  The blades have a complex geometry that are carefully designed with computer simulations and precisely machined.  The designs are considered opsec and propellers are hidden in a shroud when the sub is on land to prevent them from being photographed.  

4.  Thermoclines, salinity layers, underwater currents, biologics, and all that, all need to be mapped in peacetime by oceanographic research and survey ships.   Increasingly in the present, these jobs are also done by UUVs or USVs that are deployed by motherships, which is another oceanographic research vessel.  While the data is mainly for peacetime use, such as for scientific, resource finding and fishery monitoring, the information can also be used with ASW and submarines.  

5.  When it comes to MAD, which is one of the sensors used by MPAs to locate submarines, submarines can be built with non magnetic steel alloy.  Submarines are also degaussed using special degaussing docks.  

Edited by Eisennagel

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58 minutes ago, Eisennagel said:

 

1.  There is something called a Variable Depth Sonar, or VDS.   What it is an active sonar that can be lowered at various depths beneath the thermocline and salinity layers that a sub can hide under.   Whereas a TAS or Towed Array Sonar is passive, a VDS is active and pings.  The VDS can be attached along with a TAS on the same line or it can have a separate line and winch.  An example is here:  https://www.leonardodrs.com/media/3830/sna-brochure-vds-final-11jan2016.pdf

2.  Dipping sonar on helicopters work similarly to a VDS.

https://www.leonardodrs.com/media/3830/sna-brochure-vds-final-11jan2016.pdf

3.  Propeller designs are meant to control cavitation (forming bubbles) that not only can be heard but reduce the life of a propeller.  Various propeller designs are used:  Skewed, pump jet.  The blades have a complex geometry that are carefully designed with computer simulations and precisely machined.  The designs are considered opsec and propellers are hidden in a shroud when the sub is on land to prevent them from being photographed.  

4.  Thermoclines, salinity layers, underwater currents, biologics, and all that, all need to be mapped in peacetime by oceanographic research and survey ships.   Increasingly in the present, these jobs are also done by UUVs or USVs that are deployed by motherships, which is another oceanographic research vessel.  While the data is mainly for peacetime use, such as for scientific, resource finding and fishery monitoring, the information can also be used with ASW and submarines.  

5.  When it comes to MAD, which is one of the sensors used by MPAs to locate submarines, submarines can be built with non magnetic steel alloy.  Submarines are also degaussed using special degaussing docks.  

Thank you.  
Those are updated ideas which build upon older technologies.  It's nice to learn about them and keep my knowledge current.

I found this article, which highlights cooperation among nations for a common purpose.
 

Quote

Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It To Play Bad Guy
By Tyler Rogoway  10/23/14   2:50PM
https://jalopnik.com/sweden-has-a-sub-thats-so-deadly-the-us-navy-hired-it-t-1649695984

 

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Submarines lying on the floor of the ocean is generally not a good idea.

Most ocean depths would crush a submarine.  For this to happen, submarine should be 400 meters deep, rarely 600 meters deep.  Ocean depths are way more than that.  

If a submarine tries to lie on the floor, you may risk damaging the low frequency flank sonar array which are sometimes placed low in the hull of a submarine.   You can also risk damaging the sonar array on the nose or bottom half of the bow of the submarine.  

You can also damage the floodholes near the bottom of the submarine which lets water into the ballast tanks.  

With regards to torpedos, they are fired with a wire trailing behind the torpedo with a reel in the submarine.  While the torpedo is still on the wire, the submarine can control the torpedo.  Once the torpedo reaches the limit of the wire, it is loose and the torpedo is autonomous.  It can guide itself to any target including a friendly.

Torpedoes in WoWs are almost like Shkvals.  

ASROCs are rocket assisted torpedoes.  They look like missiles and are fired from missile launchers and VLS.  Rocket takes them to where the enemy submarine is located, then the rocket booster is detached and the torpedo is parachuted into the water.  

Do you know that there is a particular ASROC that is both dual use, which can attack both submarines and ships?  

Do you know that modern warships only carry light 324mm torpedoes?  Only submarines carry full 533mm torpedoes like WW2 ships do.   But few modern ships still carry full 533mm heavy torpedoes, which is the equivalent of launching Mk. 48s from a ship.

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