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YouSatInGum

This Dockyard might be the first one I pass on...

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I've always done the dockyards, since most of grinds are easily done (*PR not included) and the stuff that comes with it make it a pretty decent deal.  If it's a usable ship then that is enough to make it a deal for me....

But this time.... I don't think it's a usable ship.  I'm a cruiser main, so I like most cruisers, but De Zeven just looks like garbage.... there's just not enough good basic cruiser to justify the gimmick penalty.  Kinda like Cheshire....Guns and protection are so bad for the tier that it just isn't fun to play....superheal or not.... and Zeven just lost it's superheal for half a second of reload.

Magus made a good post on this:

On 7/9/2021 at 9:20 PM, Lord_Magus said:

To elaborate on how underwhelming De Zeven Provinciën's current stats are (even with the half-second reload buff announced in the latest devblog), here's a comparison of her gun performance to the rest of the T8 CLs. Plus what D7P's performance would be like with her historical reload. (The faster 4 sec reload was when the guns were in AA mode so it'd be quite reasonable to ignore it with regard to WOWS, but I included it just to show what her maximum possible performance could be. While the two stats for Edinburgh reflect her current performance and the upcoming nerf announced in last week devblog.)

Ship Armament ROF Reload AP Alpha AP DPM HE Alpha HE DPM Fire % Fires/Min
Mogami 5x3 155mm 6 RPM 10 sec 3300 297000 2600 234000 10% 9
Chapayev/Kutuzov/Irian 4x3 152mm 7.5 RPM 8 sec 3300 297000 2200 198000 12% 10.8
Ochakov 4x2 152mm 9.84 RPM 6.1 sec 3300 259672 2200 173115 12% 9.44
Cleveland 4x3 152mm 9.23 RPM 6.5 sec 3200 354462 2200 243692 12% 13.29
AL Montpelier 4x3 152mm 8.57 RPM 7 sec 3200 329143 2200 226286 12% 12.34
Mainz 4x3 152mm 10 RPM 6 sec 3900 468000 1700 204000 8% 9.6
Bayard 4x3 152mm 8 RPM 7.5 sec 3300 316800 2200 211200 12% 11.52
Edinburgh 4x3 152mm 8 RPM
7.79 RPM
7.5 sec
7.7 sec
3100 297600
289870
n/a n/a n/a n/a
Tiger '59 2x2 152mm 18.75 RPM 3.2 sec 3200 240000 n/a n/a n/a n/a
Belfast '43 4x3 152mm 5.71 RPM 10.5 sec 3100 212571 2450 168000 9%  
De Zeven Provinciën 4x2 152mm 8.57 RPM 7 sec 3000 205714 2150 147429 11% 7.54
De Zeven Provinciën (historical) 4x2 152mm 10 RPM
15 RPM
6 sec
4 sec
3000 240000
360000
2150 172000
258000
11% 8.8
13.2

As you can see, D7P's gunnery is quite anemic. Even Belfast '43 (which was given atrocious reload to balance out the smoke + radar combo) significantly outguns her. She's also outgunned by Tiger '59, a ship with only 4 guns. And what does D7P bring to the table to make up for this bad DPM? A speed boost and a heal. The latter is quite nice to have in a T8 CL, but not enough to make up for worst-in-tier armament. Especially since she's also the worst-armored T8 CL. You can only use the heal if your HP hasn't been taken all the way to zero after all.

Speed the reload up the historical 6 sec and she's still going to be basically Ochakov (a far from OP ship) except with no radar, no hydro and no DFAA (and airstrike instead of torps). And it's pretty odd to have a 1953 AA cruiser without DFAA and with no sensor consumables.

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Its junk.

Since I dont care about steel or RP anymore I wont bother with whaling this particular dockyard. Its not attractive. And way too expensive to do it.

My port is full of anemic ships that can be equally bad in battle already. I dont know who made the choice for the upcoming dockyard ship but they [edited] up this time. In order for it to be a GOOD dockyard ship it needs to be T10 and offer something unique. It can always be nerfed later.

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Felt this way about ZF-6. Just played to get what I could and the grind wasn't bad. 1/2 the time I finished and didn't realize I was that close. I ended up buying it as it is a T9 Premium (good earnings + steel in flake events) but I didn't buy any stages out at all unlike previous dockyards. I will do the same for this dockyard as the ship holds no interest for me really. Just getting what I can out of this one and will decide when the end comes if I want the ship or not. At least as a T8 Premium it means Steel for flake events which is good if nothing else is.

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2 minutes ago, xHeavy said:

In order for it to be a GOOD dockyard ship it needs to be T10 and offer something unique

I disagree. Odin and Anchorage are decent ships at T8 and worth doing the dockyard for. ZF-6 is an ok DD and the grind was not bad. Doesn't have to be T10 or gimmicky. Just needs to be a good ship (unlike Hizen which is utter garbage). Puerto Rico is a great ship but let's not bring that back up with the disaster that dockyard was. :fish_boom:

I don't care if they do a T6 ship in the dockyard. Just make it good with a reasonable grind and buy out.

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5 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I disagree. Odin and Anchorage are decent ships at T8 and worth doing the dockyard for. ZF-6 is an ok DD and the grind was not bad. Doesn't have to be T10 or gimmicky. Just needs to be a good ship (unlike Hizen which is utter garbage). Puerto Rico is a great ship but let's not bring that back up with the disaster that dockyard was. :fish_boom:

I don't care if they do a T6 ship in the dockyard. Just make it good with a reasonable grind and buy out.

I agree with you.

I just would like a good ship to come out of dockyard, something to be feared in battle.

Hizen was not it. It wants to be a yammy but it's too little to be on this kind of a ride.

The other two are pretty good. Even the anchorage. Ive had some good battles in that thing believe it or not, after I learned I can move halsey 21 pointer around without paying for retraining. Once I got the cruiser tree just so to the way I fought, the anchorage did very well.

The new german DD was not bad. bad. Just... eh... they have their moments. But eh. I think it's easier to farm RP off them by retraining than anything really. I have several lines being retrained for RP now. Raking it in for upgrading ships.

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I dunno about it being bad.  Not willing to call it great, either.  She looks something in between.  Balanced, reigned in.

You focus solely on DPM but you need to look at shell flight characteristics also, as well as range.  It's better than USN CLs but Mainz has superior shell flight characteristics.  DPM means nothing if the ship cannot connect reliably.  USN CL DPM is quite meaningless because their shells get too floaty with more range.

 

I haven't seen the armor profile.  A lot of Zeven's CL peers in the tier lack Repair Party, and it's a PITA when you're in a High Tier game dealing with Cruisers who not only can connect at range as you, but they got Repair Party to outlast you.  Cleveland, Mainz, Mogami, Bayard, all the damage they take, including Fire damage, is permanent.

 

A number of Zeven's peers also have similar gun range as her.  Cleveland and Mogami have even shorter gun range, and both lack Engine Boost and Repair Party.

 

Bayard is the closest thing in sailing characteristics to Zeven.  She even has Engine Boost like Zeven.  She also has considerably more firepower.  But Bayard can get deleted (happens a lot to Cruisers in High Tier anyways) and she lacks Repair Party.

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So you think that a 4.5k doubloon modern cruiser with godly AA, airstrikes, speedboost and heal (t8 ship btw) is a bad deal because it doesn't have insane dpm? and you dare to say that the past dockyard ships like Odin and Hizen (real dumpsterfire ships) were good deals? my god, this playerbase.

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19 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Felt this way about ZF-6. Just played to get what I could and the grind wasn't bad. 1/2 the time I finished and didn't realize I was that close. I ended up buying it as it is a T9 Premium (good earnings + steel in flake events) but I didn't buy any stages out at all unlike previous dockyards. I will do the same for this dockyard as the ship holds no interest for me really. Just getting what I can out of this one and will decide when the end comes if I want the ship or not. At least as a T8 Premium it means Steel for flake events which is good if nothing else is.

From the outset the ZF-6 seemed at least decent and has turned out to be even a little better than that.  If you take away the Airstrike, the boat is a non competitive combination of poor damage output and poor protection only moderated by decent concealment and a heal.  Maybe I'm wrong and it's not so bad and maybe the reward goodies are worth it... but so far it's not looking good.... I'm not complaining about not having good HE DPM.... it's worst in class by far... there are quite a few DDs that will be able to gun it down.

BTW  - Anchorage isn't bad, but it would have been so much better if you could trade the smoke for a heal like RU DDs.

Edited by YouSatInGum

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Mainz is a unique ship.

She can be so easily erased sometimes I felt like prey just showing up in her with a Red Team stuffed with stalingrads and choking on Smolesks (Mainz's natural enemy)

However usually but not always you can carefully insert the mainz just so and turn her loose. Glorious.

I myself have started to take ships with citadels at waterline only. Nothing above. Which is why I dont use the constellation or stalingrad for example. I see either one and just land AP below their stacks specifically and poof. All gone. Its too bad too. Beautiful ships. But its too weak on protection.

I also still use the Prinz Eugen, only because most people by now have forgotten how to deal with it's turtleback in battle.

 

As a final thought.

I dont particularly enjoy many USN ships. The shells are orbital and take 5 minutes to come down. Corrections require scheduling 3 days in advance. If you live that long.

I prefer flat shooting guns.

Edited by xHeavy

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1 minute ago, xHeavy said:

Mainz is a unique ship.

She can be so easily erased sometimes I felt like prey just showing up in her with a Red Team stuffed with stalingrads and choking on Smolesks (Mainz's natural enemy)

However usually but not always you can carefully insert the mainz just so and turn her loose. Glorious.

I myself have started to take ships with citadels at waterline only. Nothing above. Which is why I dont use the constellation or stalingrad for example. I see either one and just land AP below their stacks specifically and poof. All gone. Its too bad too. Beautiful ships. But its too weak on protection.

The interesting, fascinating thing with High Tier German Cruisers is that their protection scheme is ideal for fighting at close range.  But since most players play them at range and never ever try to knife fight if even given the opportunity, they stay at ranges where it's easy to delete them.

 

Hindenburg for example is extremely annoying to take down quickly at short range with most BB guns.  But at range?  She'll get smashed to pieces.

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26 minutes ago, xHeavy said:

Its junk.

Since I dont care about steel or RP anymore I wont bother with whaling this particular dockyard. Its not attractive. And way too expensive to do it.

My port is full of anemic ships that can be equally bad in battle already. I dont know who made the choice for the upcoming dockyard ship but they [edited] up this time. In order for it to be a GOOD dockyard ship it needs to be T10 and offer something unique. It can always be nerfed later.

Especially since then everyone can complain and cry about about WG offering good ships and then nerfing them later that's a great idea .

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14 minutes ago, xHeavy said:

However usually but not always you can carefully insert the mainz just so and turn her loose. Glorious.

I myself have started to take ships with citadels at waterline only. Nothing above. Which is why I dont use the constellation or stalingrad for example. I see either one and just land AP below their stacks specifically and poof. All gone. Its too bad too. Beautiful ships. But its too weak on protection.

Uh, the Constellation has a waterline citadel.  It eats full pens like it’s going out of style thanks to all that free board, but I haven’t noticed it getting citadeled all that much.

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45 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

I disagree. Odin and Anchorage are decent ships at T8 and worth doing the dockyard for. ZF-6 is an ok DD and the grind was not bad. Doesn't have to be T10 or gimmicky. Just needs to be a good ship (unlike Hizen which is utter garbage). Puerto Rico is a great ship but let's not bring that back up with the disaster that dockyard was. :fish_boom:

Except for its weird stern, I like Hizen.

ZF-6 has been okay, and PR I dislike for the same reason I dislike Alaska…

’…Oh the guns are so great!’

Not that I’ve seen.

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I've seen the videos of the current version of the airstrike, it's pretty weak, hard to land hits, and with a slow reload.  D7P went from interesting to a pass.

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This is ship just isn’t different enough for me to want to pursue it in the dockyard. It would have been different if this ship actually had something unique besides air strikes about her.

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Ships with bad armament will always be bad.  You can take a ship with paper armor, or bad concealment, or poor handling and it can still be great if it has good weapons.  ZP is just anemic and cannot be good with guns that poor.  There are plenty of light cruisers at tier 8 with good guns, there is no reason ZP can't have guns that good.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The interesting, fascinating thing with High Tier German Cruisers is that their protection scheme is ideal for fighting at close range.  But since most players play them at range and never ever try to knife fight if even given the opportunity, they stay at ranges where it's easy to delete them.

 

Hindenburg for example is extremely annoying to take down quickly at short range with most BB guns.  But at range?  She'll get smashed to pieces.

Unless your playing it as a lighthouse build / double rudder shift...I've been having a lot of fun / success with that...half the team shooting at you the whole match while you dodge everything and return fire with crazy reload...but it does feel like a wacky build...that not many ships can pull off...and I do get the point about the armor scheme...

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I like her AA but it does feel like she is being gimped for her gimmick. Hope I'm wrong. I've got Dutch ancestral bias so I will probably get her anyway.

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I just got some dubs for being charitable. I figure buying out the minimum stages won't be so bad and she is a Dutch cruiser to go along with my soon-to-be-had Dutch DD, Groningen (sic).

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For me it will depend on a few things:

  • How doable is the grind; can I realistically do it in the time that I will have available
  • How expensive are the boosters
  • other rewards along the way
  • How good is the boat

The last part will depend on a few things we cannot really tell yet, like the shell characteristics and how much of her theoretical DPM can be translated into effective DPM on target. Further, the airstrikes are still somewhat of an unknown quantity, as there is almost no information out there on how hard/easy they are to use. Overall I am not planning on necessarily getting her. But I also did not see myself getting ZF-6 either. Guess we will have to wait for the CCs/testers and whales to provide information on the ship.

Also, not sure but are we certain the latest iteration is its final form, or is there another round of buffs/nerfs before the thing goes life in the dockyard?

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9 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

Also, not sure but are we certain the latest iteration is its final form, or is there another round of buffs/nerfs before the thing goes life in the dockyard?

This, we have another month before the dockyard.  It's way to early to call for me.

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I’m not sure either. On one side, the stealth, speed boost, and heal are great among T8 cruisers (especially light cruisers) but having worse DPM than even some same tier heavy cruisers really sucks. The only unknown is her Airstrike. If that is incredibly strong, it might balance the terrible guns. However, unlike prior dockyards where they were from an established nation with choice of premiums at that tier, D7P is the first premium released for the Dutch and can offer a chance to level up new captains faster (De Ruyter or Jansen for their special skills) when combined with Groningen, so I might still spend some dubs for her (probably through the starter pack which might cost around 3500-4k dubs)

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3 hours ago, YouSatInGum said:

I've always done the dockyards, since most of grinds are easily done (*PR not included) and the stuff that comes with it make it a pretty decent deal.  If it's a usable ship then that is enough to make it a deal for me....

But this time.... I don't think it's a usable ship.  I'm a cruiser main, so I like most cruisers, but De Zeven just looks like garbage.... there's just not enough good basic cruiser to justify the gimmick penalty.  Kinda like Cheshire....Guns and protection are so bad for the tier that it just isn't fun to play....superheal or not.... and Zeven just lost it's superheal for half a second of reload.

Magus made a good post on this:

Tbh, I'm probably gonna get De Zeven Provincien because she looks REALLY nice! That's about it. She's one of the better looking cruisers in the game to me : )

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Anchorage pra foi uma decepção reload muito alto e nem tem uma recuperação de vida alem de ter range de tiro curto para um navio que pega tier x , esse novo navio nem vou querer pega .

espero que um dia a WG melhore o Anchorage diminuindo um pouco o reload e aumentando o range de tiro. |Pois não vejo esse navio em aleatória . 

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Agora mesmo, GATIN_CARAMELLO disse:

Anchorage pra ser uma decepção recarregar muito alto e nem tem uma recuperação da vida alem de gama de tiro curto para um navio que pega de nível x, esse novo navio nem vou querer pega.

espero que um dia a WG melhore o Anchorage diminuindo um pouco o recarregar e aumentar ao alcance de tiro. | Pois não vejo esse navio em aleatória. 

 

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