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Cit_the_bed

Next clan battle comp predictions

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2x Lowenhardt

4x Londons chain smoking

1x T-61

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1 loewen, 1 ark, 2 London’s 2 Perth/ huang and T-61 ( until they all get inevitably banned of course)

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Can't get double CV if you only queue as BB...at least on your team :fish_boom:

I am super interested in the next clan battle meta. It's gonna be wild. 

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I dont forsee the double CV meta. We are permitted to run a single CV now but two BBs seems to be the go to. It might be different because of the tier but the trade off is you lose your tankiest ships. Lemming trains of ships with smoke and AA are going to counter CV alot easier than people credit it for.

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1 hour ago, Mademoisail said:

Can't get double CV if you only queue as BB...at least on your team :fish_boom:

I am super interested in the next clan battle meta. It's gonna be wild. 

@Mademoisail I doubt the company would, but what if you guys showed us the way. It would be nice if WG took their employees, made a team, used only 2x BBs and streamed. Show us how it is possible to play without CVs, I am sure you guys could do it and it would reinforce the narrative that CVs are not overpowered. I for one would love to watch WG play CBs on NA. I am sure employees would love to volunteer.

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What about double Ise?... Strong AA, Direct fire support, plane spotting and multi-torp drops for smoke denial...

 

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4 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

What about double Ise?... Strong AA, Direct fire support, plane spotting and multi-torp drops for smoke denial...

 

lol

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7 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

What about double Ise?... Strong AA, Direct fire support, plane spotting and multi-torp drops for smoke denial...

 

because that's somehow comparable to 2 actual carriers :D

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13 hours ago, UwUnicum said:

2 Ryujo 5 Huanghe

for a meme build....but I'm sure good clans like yours can make it work.

Otherwise  2 CVs (Lowe, Arkansas, or Ryujo) 2 Haunghes 1 cruiser with better dpm/survivability, T61, and lastly either another smoke cruiser or DD...like a Farragut.

Farragut has a surprising amount of DPM when taken with IFHE

 

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4 minutes ago, Cit_the_bed said:

lol

 

1 minute ago, ToxicSymphony said:

because that's somehow comparable to 2 actual carriers :D

Guys, I think  you are underestimating the impact of playing without any BB and how it drastically changes the match dynamic. A CV can't stop you from pushing, and you have a lot of less trouble showing broadside when there's no big AP around. 

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1 minute ago, ArIskandir said:

 

Guys, I think  you are underestimating the impact of playing without any BB and how it drastically changes the match dynamic. A CV can't stop you from pushing, and you have a lot of less trouble showing broadside when there's no big AP around. 

I think you don't understand how CBs work, or how easy it is to kill a single bb with one CV. CVs hitting the same BB at the same time, and the BB will not be able to dodge, then he will DCP and literally die.

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1 minute ago, Knavbot said:

I think you don't understand how CBs work, or how easy it is to kill a single bb with one CV. CVs hitting the same BB at the same time, and the BB will not be able to dodge, then he will DCP and literally die.

OK, follow me on this one, I know it could sound silly but lets ride for a bit...

You set up for smoke trails and double BB, you strong push one flank and then turn center detaching only a DD and maybe a cruiser to stall the far flank, with orders to fall back towards center. 

Strong flank push full forward with at least 2 cruisers (hydro) and 2 BBs worth of AA working close together and at least 1 DD screening for torps. Massive Torp spreads would be dangerous but airstrikes will pay the price of 4-5 ships AA, you propose a game of attrition between BB HP and planes. It would be a stupid lemming ball of AA and firepower, but you'll be facing no BB so what's broadside anyway? A force of CLs can degrade your forces in time but won't be able to stop you from taking the caps. In theory you look to change the axis of battle from vertical (3 parallel caps) to horizontal (3 successive caps) and push through the caps as a concentrated force, brushing the opposition away with "shock and awe" concentration of force. Oblique advance translated to WoWS.

The idea goes by the following premises: 

  • The opponent will have a clear DoT advantage while you have an alpha advantage. You will be playing all out aggressive to achieve a resolution in the shortest time possible
  • You will play against the traditional balanced spread of forces meta. You will concentrate your forces as much as possible and press the attack with the intention of winning local superiority and inflict casualties at the local enemy
  • At every time translate HP loses into plane loses at the higher rate possible

I'm not sure how good it would work but sounds more fun than sitting in smoke the whole match and waiting for the best CV to win the game.

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41 minutes ago, Knavbot said:

I think you don't understand how CBs work, or how easy it is to kill a single bb with one CV. CVs hitting the same BB at the same time, and the BB will not be able to dodge, then he will DCP and literally die.

CVs can not stop a push. Sure a lone BB getting focused will die but i dont think you understand how CBs work. If the BB is all alone there was a bad play.  A team with 5 ships that are not BBs are going to have a bad time against 7 ships doing a hard push with 2 of those ships having BB guns. At that tier cruisers cant hide and heal either. Sure the CV might get some hits in but getting through a group of ships will deplete their planes fast.

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On 7/8/2021 at 12:31 PM, Cit_the_bed said:

2x Lowenhardt

4x Londons chain smoking

1x T-61

But for the smoke, London’s are crap.  Terrible RoF, short range, large smoke firing penalty, agility of a BB.  Leander, Perth or Huang He are all better choices if you have to have smoke.

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1 minute ago, Admiral_Andy said:

CVs can not stop a push. Sure a lone BB getting focused will die but i dont think you understand how CBs work. If the BB is all alone there was a bad play.  A team with 5 ships that are not BBs are going to have a bad time against 7 ships doing a hard push with 2 of those ships having BB guns. At that tier cruisers cant hide and heal either. Sure the CV might get some hits in but getting through a group of ships will deplete their planes fast.

Yeah, you're right. My clan is only in hurricane, and I only take three man teams down to gale and bring them to high storm in a single Cb session. I clearly know nothing about Cbs, and you are clearly the Gale 1 expert. Please tell me how CBs work because I clearly don't have the experience in CBs from playing hundreds of games, and I don't have CV experience after playing them for four years. So go ahead tell me about CVs in competitive Gale 1. I will listen and write everything you have to say down, because your knowledge is clearly backed up by High level comp experience, many CB season wins, many CV games as well. Go ahead, educate me. Tell me how you plan to push 

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

The idea goes by the following premises: 

  • The opponent will have a clear DoT advantage while you have an alpha advantage. You will be playing all out aggressive to achieve a resolution in the shortest time possible
  • You will play against the traditional balanced spread of forces meta. You will concentrate your forces as much as possible and press the attack with the intention of winning local superiority and inflict casualties at the local enemy
  • At every time translate HP loses into plane loses at the higher rate possible

You aren't really thinking about the right things. You (as a 2BB comp) are playing against an enemy team with at least 1 CV, and either a second or a BB of their own. Your enemy has all your deployment information, while you have 0 information. Expecting to catch out your opponent like that to even use your alpha is a stretch. It doesn't even happen in tier 10 currently with radars everywhere.
 
The reason 2BB has worked at tier 10 (after removing some op carriers) is because the weak link isn't the BBs, but the cruisers. At tier 10, your cruisers have heals. At tier 6, well graf is banned. If you are going to push at any smoke double HH with BB comps, the first thing to die will be your cruisers because they can't tank or even heal whatsoever. They are extremely vulnerable to a cv, let alone 2 or BB crossfire and he dpm from a smoke. And if you decide not to bring up the cruisers, than the BB would just die the same way with no support.

Maybe your best bet is to just dig in behind islands and weather the storm on top of caps. At least in normal rules. But WG likes to use these bans and cyclone to make the game look more fair than it truly is don't they.

Edited by MalteseSquire

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Guys, the people WG has running the forum are just paid punching bags, no reason to bother them as WG won't ever care about anything you say to them.

I'm just glad we have people to perhaps ask about critical problems and get them pushed up to a dev asap.

No reason to kill the messenger.

Edited by Cit_the_bed
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1 minute ago, Cit_the_bed said:

Guys, the people WG has running the forum are just paid punching bags, no reason to bother them as WG won't ever care about anything you say to them.

I'm just glad we have people to perhaps ask about critical problems and get them pushed up to a dev asap.

No reason to kill the messenger.

 Or is it just another sign of the games decline?

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Just now, goldenpollywog said:

 Or is it just another sign of the games decline?

It's a 6 year old free to play game, of course it's in decline. We're entering the "break all the rules" phase, and the "cash cow" phase is coming up.

When they finally release Kitakami, it ill be the start of the end.

have fun, but don't invest heavily in the game at this late date. I've been playing 5+ years, and I will tell you the game is shedding the original players for new ones who will not hang around as long as the original players.

They are burning through their remaining player base, and when the CV rework people leave because of cv nerfs and subs, the subs people will move in. After that there's no other class of ship to add, so it's the end. 

I give the game another 3 fun years, and 5 years of life. 10 years is a long time for a free to play game to survive.

After tanks and ships dies, so will wargaming as all their other franchises have been disasters.

 

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3 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

A CV can't stop you from pushing, and you have a lot of less trouble showing broadside when there's no big AP around.

2 CVs working in coordination should actually be enough alpha to achieve 1 kill per strike at that tier even on BBs. If nothing else a kill on the 2nd strike is pretty much guaranteed.

So in essence with 2 CVs you get BB grade alpha that is much more reliable, more flexible, cannot be denied nor counterplayed, is active from the start of the match and in addition provides map wide spotting.

Edited by El2aZeR

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17 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

2 CVs working in coordination should actually be enough alpha to achieve 1 kill per strike at that tier even on BBs. If nothing else a kill on the 2nd strike is pretty much guaranteed.

So in essence with 2 CVs you get BB grade alpha that is much more reliable, more flexible, cannot be denied nor counterplayed, is active from the start of the match and in addition provides map wide spotting.

Next season the skill wall will be very apparent and very real. I expect it to be very hard to push up past storm when you hit clans who actually practice tactics vs winging it. 

Last T6 season was more of a chore than fun, if I remember correctly almost no one wanted to play and we ran into the top clans only in the last week or two when they went farming the easy steel.

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1 hour ago, MalteseSquire said:

You aren't really thinking about the right things. You (as a 2BB comp) are playing against an enemy team with at least 1 CV, and either a second or a BB of their own. Your enemy has all your deployment information, while you have 0 information. Expecting to catch out your opponent like that to even use your alpha is a stretch. It doesn't even happen in tier 10 currently with radars everywhere.

My first post that started this line of argument was calling specifically for Ise, given its spotting utility and strong AA, and considering going up against 2 CVs. Now, even not considering that let me explain why enemy distribution wouldn't be as critical imo.

For starter, you'll be in a 7 vs 5 situation (considering 2 CV). The enemy only has 5 ships to distribute over the map and try to block you, giving them a disadvantage in numbers, HP, and local damage output. However you deploy, he won't have resources to hard counter you everywhere. If I were to call, I would lead my concentrated massed fleet dead center, I would weather down the first attack wave. There's no much precedent on double CVs working together but I would expect simultaneous cross drops to be the starting move, that would leave your fleet with a "dark" time while the CVs come barck for a second attack. Even if you are spotted the whole time, by making your deployment as later as possible you will be reducing the enemy reaction time.

I would split 1-6 or 5-2, that would probably force the enemy into a 1-4 or 2-3. Unless they leave the rest of the caps uncontested to oppose you in force. Any option could be considered favorable to you. That's why I mean, deployment information is not critical, you have the initiative as you will be dictating where your schewerepunkt is gonna hit, the enemy is forced to react to it.

1 hour ago, MalteseSquire said:

The reason 2BB has worked at tier 10 (after removing some op carriers) is because the weak link isn't the BBs, but the cruisers. At tier 10, your cruisers have heals. At tier 6, well graf is banned. If you are going to push at any smoke double HH with BB comps, the first thing to die will be your cruisers because they can't tank or even heal whatsoever. They are extremely vulnerable to a cv, let alone 2 or BB crossfire and he dpm from a smoke. And if you decide not to bring up the cruisers, than the BB would just die the same way with no support.

I would consider for the theorical comp cruisers with smoke (to disengage; Huanghe), heal (to tank the damage; Devonshire) or just plain good AA (think dutch, with a side effect of smoke purging airstrikes) and relay on DD smoke to disengage. The general idea would be to push the smoke in force as a massive group of at least 2 BBs and 2 cruisers with massed AA. As I said previously, the enemy comp will be strong on DoT but low on alpha, they will be focusing your units to satck DoT your work will be to rotate your tanking unit and provide smoke to disengage once they are forced to DCP, then cycle your tank. As long as you manage to remove enemy units faster and cycle your tanks to use your heals, you should be coming up ahead the trades.

1 hour ago, MalteseSquire said:

Maybe your best bet is to just dig in behind islands and weather the storm on top of caps. At least in normal rules. 

IMO, that would be the worst idea, you need to press for a quick resolution (kills, cap advantage) or die to CV attrition.

51 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

2 CVs working in coordination should actually be enough alpha to achieve 1 kill per strike at that tier even on BBs. If nothing else a kill on the 2nd strike is pretty much guaranteed.

Your experience and knowledge comes in handy. How "debilitating" or impairing would be the massed AA of 2 Ise and 3 fully AA spec cruisers (Huanghe/Dutch), I expect they would severely limit a second drop and totally negating a third one. CV "alpha" would be effectively limited, at least during the first phase of the match. 

Edited by ArIskandir

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On 7/8/2021 at 4:31 PM, Cit_the_bed said:

2x Lowenhardt

4x Londons chain smoking

1x T-61

Isn't London bad? I remember people complaining about it. So, I was going to say 2x Loew. and 5x t-61

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