Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
becalmed

Commanders in Co-Op: money lying on the table

40 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

83
[TYPH]
Members
57 posts
7,987 battles

I mostly play Co-op (PVE)¹.    I would really be tempted to spend money/coal/... on more unique commanders except...  so many of their skills are coded around achieving a particular Random (PvP) achievement, and those do not show up in Co-op games.

Why not take the simple step of tying it instead to what led to the achievement?  For instance:

  • Instead of "earning the First Blood achievement" make it "earning the First Blood achievement or equivalent".   In other words, activate it on the first kill, whether that's in Random or Co-op.
  • Instead of "earning a Kraken Unleashed" make it happen when you get five kills, whether that's in Random or Co-Op.
  • etc.

It would not take a lot of work to make unique commanders a lot more attractive to Co-op focused players.   And "more attractive" leads to "more money spent".

¹ = reasons why would be a different post.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6,763
[RLGN]
Members
19,148 posts
35,185 battles

Especially since earning the Achievements is ‘meaningless’ now anyway, since they don’t award signals any more.

Would be all for this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,880
[WTFS]
Members
9,331 posts
13,756 battles

This post is highly misleading. The only captains whose talents are affected this way are Yamamoto and Halsey, and neither can be purchased, they can only be earned through campaigns. All other captains talents can be activated in PvE.

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
83
[TYPH]
Members
57 posts
7,987 battles
1 hour ago, TheKrimzonDemon said:

This post is highly misleading. The only captains whose talents are affected this way are Yamamoto and Halsey, and neither can be purchased, they can only be earned through campaigns. All other captains talents can be activated in PvE.

Perhaps you overlooked:

  • Cunningham: Witherer
  • Auboyneau: Devastating Strike
  • Kuznetsov: First Blood
  • Sansonetti: Confederate

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
271
[TYPH]
Beta Testers
237 posts
12,039 battles
On 7/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, becalmed said:

And "more attractive" leads to "more money spent".

 


Here's an example.  

I just bought Luetjens for coal, largely because his skills do great in Coop play.  I already had a 14-skill German BB commander, so I dumped a bunch of commander XP into Luetjens to get him up to 14.  Some of that CXP came from spending gold when I dismissed unwanted commanders.  Now I'm running every commander XP booster I can on my German premium ships; people spend money on those flags.  My old BB skipper got moved to the new German DD line, so there's two bucks worth of gold I spent for retraining.  And because I like Luetjens so much I play extra games now just to enjoy him, and WG wants people to play more.  

I also just completed the Yamamoto campaign (which is a real slog for PVE players), and none of this happened with him.  At 15 skill points he's no better than my current Japanese commanders.  I put him in my BB anyway, just because that's where he ought to be, and he does get a couple of enhanced skills including Grease the Gears.  But his bonuses never activate and I'm not excited about playing him.  If Yamamoto had  been a 10-point commander instead of 15, I probably wouldn't even bother using him.

That's the difference between making a commander useful to PVE players, or not.  

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
694
[WOLFO]
[WOLFO]
Members
2,389 posts
10,243 battles

i wasn't aware they were, or could, be type restricted.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
62
[SQUAD]
Members
157 posts
7,284 battles
5 minutes ago, CaptainVaneGhost said:

I contacted WG and was told accomplishing the equivalent requirement of an "Achievement" in a Co-op battle will NOT activate a talent in a Unique Commander.  They also said "We don't see any mistake in the description."  Here's the description from the Unique Commanders ": "Unavailable in Clan and Training Battles."  They could simply modify the description to say "Unavailable in Co-op, Clan, and Training Battles."  Aside from the dubious description remains the fact that Unique Commanders already have minimal benefit and this only further reduces it for Co-op players.  

Well, you have made a slight mistake here, as many unique commanders WILL activate on Co-op battles. For example, unless you can prove me wrong, which I very well could be, Kuznetsov gets the DCP and heal before death in co-op, no achievement required. Sansonetti can get the 1 kill range buff. Lutjens can get the spotting and secondary buff, and Jerzy Swirski can activate AA talent and torpedo talent. Overall, I don't know all of the talents so there are probably more, but saying it can't be acheived in Co-op wouldn't be true for all commanders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
62
[SQUAD]
Members
157 posts
7,284 battles
Just now, CaptainVaneGhost said:

No, you misunderstood.  We are talking about actual "Achievements" which receive special notice in Random and Ranked battles but not in Co-op.  Yes, there are talents that aren't based on "Achievements" that activate in Co-op battles such as the ones you referenced.  However, it should be noted even the few non-achievement talents are essentially useless in a Co-op battle such as getting a two million in potential damage.  The short duration of most Co-op battles render even those few talents relatively useless.  

I understood, but writing thing such as "Unavailable in Co-op" would either remove the existing perks, or it would be inaccurate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
694
[WOLFO]
[WOLFO]
Members
2,389 posts
10,243 battles

yup, I have to get a confederate before my talent pops, which I cannot attain in Co-OP

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
271
[TYPH]
Beta Testers
237 posts
12,039 battles

This is a suggestion I'd really like to see WG respond to.  It's easy to implement, doesn't hurt anyone, puts a little bit of fun back into Co-op, and will get Co-op players to spend more money.  And it's consistent with WG's decision to make Halsey and Yamamoto available to players who only play Co-op.

Against that, what's the downside?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1
[GUT]
Members
6 posts
2,715 battles
On 7/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, becalmed said:

I mostly play Co-op (PVE)¹.    I would really be tempted to spend money/coal/... on more unique commanders except...  so many of their skills are coded around achieving a particular Random (PvP) achievement, and those do not show up in Co-op games.

Why not take the simple step of tying it instead to what led to the achievement?  For instance:

  • Instead of "earning the First Blood achievement" make it "earning the First Blood achievement or equivalent".   In other words, activate it on the first kill, whether that's in Random or Co-op.
  • Instead of "earning a Kraken Unleashed" make it happen when you get five kills, whether that's in Random or Co-Op.
  • etc.

It would not take a lot of work to make unique commanders a lot more attractive to Co-op focused players.   And "more attractive" leads to "more money spent".

¹ = reasons why would be a different post.

 

On 7/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, becalmed said:

I mostly play Co-op (PVE)¹.    I would really be tempted to spend money/coal/... on more unique commanders except...  so many of their skills are coded around achieving a particular Random (PvP) achievement, and those do not show up in Co-op games.

Why not take the simple step of tying it instead to what led to the achievement?  For instance:

  • Instead of "earning the First Blood achievement" make it "earning the First Blood achievement or equivalent".   In other words, activate it on the first kill, whether that's in Random or Co-op.
  • Instead of "earning a Kraken Unleashed" make it happen when you get five kills, whether that's in Random or Co-Op.
  • etc.

It would not take a lot of work to make unique commanders a lot more attractive to Co-op focused players.   And "more attractive" leads to "more money spent".

¹ = reasons why would be a different post.

can wows change the bot's IQ and fire accuracy? i mean wth they can't even deal a signal damage to me and one time I was using bb Nagato in the coop there is five enemy bots fire at me but they first not at me is at the nowhere and i can't get any kills and only destroyer gets so many kills which is making me really annoying

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,145
[WPORT]
Members
20,736 posts
22,656 battles
On 7/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, becalmed said:

I mostly play Co-op (PVE)¹.    I would really be tempted to spend money/coal/... on more unique commanders except...  so many of their skills are coded around achieving a particular Random (PvP) achievement, and those do not show up in Co-op games.

Why not take the simple step of tying it instead to what led to the achievement?  For instance:

  • Instead of "earning the First Blood achievement" make it "earning the First Blood achievement or equivalent".   In other words, activate it on the first kill, whether that's in Random or Co-op.
  • Instead of "earning a Kraken Unleashed" make it happen when you get five kills, whether that's in Random or Co-Op.
  • etc.

It would not take a lot of work to make unique commanders a lot more attractive to Co-op focused players.   And "more attractive" leads to "more money spent".

¹ = reasons why would be a different post.

An understandable sentiment.

Thing is, though, that there are more opponents who can shoot at you in a random battle, when compared to a Co-op battle.
Therefore the "risk" is higher and the "reward" is potentially higher.

Also, the 'bots aren't humans.  'Bots could be as good (or better) than a portion of the human population, but the 'Bots are not programmed to that level of excellence.
Heck, when 'Bots sail into islands and/or collide with other 'Bots we could point out that they're merely emulating the behaviors of humans.

I enjoy playing in Co-op games.  Yet I also understand that the threat-level of red-team ships is, on average, higher in a random battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1
[GUT]
Members
6 posts
2,715 battles
10 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

An understandable sentiment.

Thing is, though, that there are more opponents who can shoot at you in a random battle, when compared to a Co-op battle.
Therefore the "risk" is higher and the "reward" is potentially higher.

Also, the 'bots aren't humans.  'Bots could be as good (or better) than a portion of the human population, but the 'Bots are not programmed to that level of excellence.
Heck, when 'Bots sail into islands and/or collide with other 'Bots we could point out that they're merely emulating the behaviors of humans.

I enjoy playing in Co-op games.  Yet I also understand that the threat-level of red-team ships is, on average, higher in a random battle.

well.. i need to do some coop mission to get some signals but I can't get any kills because destroyer and i were really bad at using destroyer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,145
[WPORT]
Members
20,736 posts
22,656 battles
1 minute ago, wang_jerry said:

well.. i need to do some coop mission to get some signals but I can't get any kills because destroyer and i were really bad at using destroyer.

Yeah, it took me a while to figure out how to play a DD.
Which also meant learning how to play a DD differently according to what tier of game I was in, and whether or not it was a Co-op or a random battle.
I'm still learning, actually.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,145
[WPORT]
Members
20,736 posts
22,656 battles
Just now, wang_jerry said:

and bbs sometime is useless is coop

Not sure what you mean by "useless".

Most BB's sail at about 20 knots at full speed until you get to Tier-6 or higher, with the Kongo being a notable exception.
So, in Co-op one cannot mess-around or dilly-dally with a slow BB.  Just sail into the thick of the fight and do whatever damage one can, eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
271
[TYPH]
Beta Testers
237 posts
12,039 battles
19 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Thing is, though, that there are more opponents who can shoot at you in a random battle, when compared to a Co-op battle.
Therefore the "risk" is higher and the "reward" is potentially higher.
 

True, but why is it relevant?   What happens in co-op doesn't affect PVP., so it's not like my commander activating his skills in a Co-op or Operation somehow hurts you while you're in a Random.  And Co-op already  factors in the risk-reward penalty by reducing the XP and credits earned, compared to PVP battles.   So we're paying the "easy mode" tax already.  Why do you need to add another tax, and such a severe one ("your commander skills don't work at all")?

And don't forget that in 9v9 Co-op battles, getting 5 kills (Kraken) is an extremely rare event -- probably a lot less common than it is in Randoms, where you have more targets and more time.  Witherer is also hard with only 9 targets and five minutes to DOT them.   Confederate (damage 6 ships for at least 20% health) is also harder when there are only 9 targets, instead of 15.  So I counter that it's generally harder to activate these commanders in PVE than in PVP.  

I think what your statement boils down to is, "Co-op players need to have less fun."  We can debate the ethics, but I think it's a lousy business model for WG.   As the OP said, there's money on the table here.  People would buy these commanders if they worked in PVE play, and that wouldn't affect your risk/reward balance in PVP play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,145
[WPORT]
Members
20,736 posts
22,656 battles
4 hours ago, BillT said:

True, but why is it relevant?   What happens in co-op doesn't affect PVP., so it's not like my commander activating his skills in a Co-op or Operation somehow hurts you while you're in a Random.  And Co-op already  factors in the risk-reward penalty by reducing the XP and credits earned, compared to PVP battles.   So we're paying the "easy mode" tax already.  Why do you need to add another tax, and such a severe one ("your commander skills don't work at all")?

And don't forget that in 9v9 Co-op battles, getting 5 kills (Kraken) is an extremely rare event -- probably a lot less common than it is in Randoms, where you have more targets and more time.  Witherer is also hard with only 9 targets and five minutes to DOT them.   Confederate (damage 6 ships for at least 20% health) is also harder when there are only 9 targets, instead of 15.  So I counter that it's generally harder to activate these commanders in PVE than in PVP.  

I think what your statement boils down to is, "Co-op players need to have less fun."  We can debate the ethics, but I think it's a lousy business model for WG.   As the OP said, there's money on the table here.  People would buy these commanders if they worked in PVE play, and that wouldn't affect your risk/reward balance in PVP play.

I'm gonna parse some things.

"True, but why is it relevant?"
Would you award a Purple Heart medal to someone who was not wounded?
Short answer = no.
The achievements are awarded under certain conditions.  Reducing those conditions, some might argue, *cheapens* the Achievement.
Some might also argue that it is like "stolen valor" to claim the bragging rights when the conditions weren't the same.
I've sunk 5 or more ships during Co-op battles (admittedly, they are rare occasions for me). 
I don't claim that I should get a Kraken achievement in a Co-op battle, and one reason would be because my opponents weren't human players.

As for the special Commander's talents that activate during specific battle conditions?
I can see a "no harm, no foul" case to be made for activating those special talents in Co-op battles provided the conditions outlined in the Commander's description are satisfied.

Re:  " I think what your statement boils down to is, "Co-op players need to have less fun." "
Most of my games have been played in Co-op.  I'm there to have fun.  
I've spent real $$$ and doubloons and coal to welcome a number of Commanders to my Port.  I've recently finished the Commander Isoroku Yamamoto campaign and welcomed him to my Port.
I have more Commanders than I have ships (and I have approximately 250 ships).
My "stats" are "public" and while they're nothing to brag about, you're welcome to look them up.  https://worldofwarships.com/en/community/accounts/1031789485-Wolfswetpaws/!/pvp/overview/

"We can debate the ethics, but I think it's a lousy business model for WG."
Yes, it does seem like we are debating the ethics.  I am glad our conversation is civil.
And, you are entitled to think that the business model can be improved. 
I hope you don't perceive that I'm somehow able to prevent you from having an opinion derived from careful consideration & sound reasoning.  (Because, like, seriously, I couldn't even if I wanted to. :Smile_Default:)

So, are you advocating for some Co-op Achievements to be created?
If so, then what would be the guidelines or principles to form the foundation upon which they stand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
271
[TYPH]
Beta Testers
237 posts
12,039 battles
2 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Would you award a Purple Heart medal to someone who was not wounded?

The achievements are awarded under certain conditions.  Reducing those conditions, some might argue, *cheapens* the Achievement.

There's no heroism in this game.  No blood is drawn.  It doesn't even cost you extra if your ship is sunk.  So the comparison to the Purple Heart is pointless.

And we're not asking for them to put achievements in PVE.  We're asking them to change the commanders so that instead of activating when you get an achievement (e.g. Kraken), they activate when you do whatever would cause that achievement if it were a PVP match (get 5 kills).  You can keep your silly Kraken medals if you think they're prestigious, I just want to be able to use Halsey and Yamamoto and the others to their full extents in PVE games.  This would be worth dollars to me and to the OP, and we don't understand why WG apparently doesn't want our filthy PVE money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9,145
[WPORT]
Members
20,736 posts
22,656 battles
4 hours ago, BillT said:

There's no heroism in this game.  No blood is drawn.  It doesn't even cost you extra if your ship is sunk.  So the comparison to the Purple Heart is pointless.

And we're not asking for them to put achievements in PVE.  We're asking them to change the commanders so that instead of activating when you get an achievement (e.g. Kraken), they activate when you do whatever would cause that achievement if it were a PVP match (get 5 kills).  You can keep your silly Kraken medals if you think they're prestigious, I just want to be able to use Halsey and Yamamoto and the others to their full extents in PVE games.  This would be worth dollars to me and to the OP, and we don't understand why WG apparently doesn't want our filthy PVE money.

I've read your words.

The concept of allowing special talents of Commanders to activate while in a Co-op seems to be what we do agree on.

You do know I'm a player, right?  I don't represent WG/WOWs.
I merely represent me and my opinions.
And personally, my money isn't filthy.  I earned it honestly.

Perhaps you would be better off if you presented your case to someone who does represent WOWs, such as @Boggzy, eh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,039
[WG]
[WG]
Administrator
1,493 posts
15,643 battles

#1 - I am extremely grateful that all of you have chosen to make your points clearly and in a civil manner without the need to be cruel to each other.  Thank you for that!

#2 - the issue at hand here seems to be centered all around the fact that achievements of the sort needed to activate some of these commander talents are not available in coop. 
 

The reason these achievements are limited to PvP is due to the fact that they represent achievements against other players.  It’s as simple as that, I’m afraid. A human player simply represents a bigger, more changeable threat than a bot (unless the bot is dialed up to TURBO-BOT).  The achievements were designed to be symbols of note for that.

  Truly, I understand that is frustrating for people for prefer PvE since it locks away a few of the commander’s special abilities.  This is an excellent point to make.  I saw a suggestion from @becalmed that perhaps the skills be given extra coding to reflect “Kraken or 5 Kills”, which would free it up for use in PvE modes.  I think this is a suggestion very much worth passing along!

Thank you, folks for helping to reach an actually plausible solution to a problem!

 

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×