Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Moggytwo

The wider impact of the Rocket Fighter changes on the game

83 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,447
Members
690 posts
20 battles

Patch 0.10.5 has been out for two weeks now, and it contained some pretty massive changes to how Rocket Fighters work.  I'm not going to go into those specific changes in this thread as that has been discussed at length in many other threads, suffice it to say that it is now much harder to hit DD's with rockets now. 

What I want to look at is the wider impact of those changes on the game.  Has it been positive, negative, or no real change?

Firstly, let's look at the populations of the different classes before the change.  Here's the data (source: maple syrup), for player populations, tiers 7 to 10, 2 months prior to 15 May 2021:

  •                       SEA                                                           NA                                                           EU
  •   BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV
  • 44.3%    29.4%    21.0%    5.3%            40.4%    28.0%    28.4%    3.1%            43.4%    28.1%    26.1%    2.4%

Now let's compare it to the one week population data from 26 June 2021:

  •                       SEA                                                           NA                                                           EU
  •   BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV
  • 38.8%    31.6%    24.9%    4.7%            35.5%    28.4%    33.1%    3.0%            36.6%    28.7%    32.2%    2.4%

 

Now the trends are obvious here.  BB population is down significantly across all servers, cruiser population is up a little, and DD population is up significantly.  What is also very interesting is that CV population is almost unchanged!  I have to admit I am quite surprised at that last stat, I fully expected a significant drop in CV population, and I was quite clearly wrong with that prediction.

So why have the populations changed so significantly, and in the way they have?  Well the answer is relatively simple; players feel that they have a lot more freedom to play their DD's with less oppressive CV interference, pushing the DD population up.  CV's have moved their attention a little more towards BB's and away from DD's.  These two factors combined have forced a corresponding drop in BB population. 

What about the effect this has had on the game meta?  Well this is where we get into the opinion side of things, so bear with me.  My experience has been of a noticeably improved meta.  We had a BB overpopulation before (and this is reflected in the stats above), and too many BB's causes both BB's and especially cruisers to be much more passive, and it also means that players are more likely to take out cruisers that are more survivable against BB's (like Russian cruisers), and these ships also have the effect of making for passive play.  Less BB's mean that players will be more comfortable taking out light cruisers and more mobile cruisers, and means there are more opportunities to push or flank in open water with less threats of BB alpha removing you from the game.  This has made for a noticeably more dynamic and less passive meta, and that has been more enjoyable to play in for every class!

So this one change has actually been a massive overall improvement for the game.  The populations are better balanced, and the game is more dynamic and interesting.  All that from the change of making rockets less impactful on DD's.  Now I am a DD main, although I do a fair bit of play in CV's as well, and it has definitely been unpleasant to use rocket fighters this patch.  However, I'm happy to deal with that negative effect given the overwhelming positive effect this has had on the game.  I do think that some refining can definitely be done to the rocket fighters change, it feels pretty clunky at the moment, but what shouldn't change is the fundamental aspect of moving rockets away from being an anti-DD tool, and into other roles.

  • Cool 7
  • Thanks 4
  • Meh 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
669 posts
17,994 battles

Correlation is not causation. Some people might be playing 20km shimis for the lols now that team damage is decreased.

  • Cool 3
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,010
[PVE]
Members
7,464 posts

There was just a new DD line going live, and Grand Battles have pulled a lot of BB players out of Randoms.  I'd bet that accounts for the change we're seeing.

Edit: What I'm finding interesting are some of the reactions to what is a very logical post.  Why in the world would anyone down vote that???

Edited by Slimeball91
  • Cool 2
  • Boring 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
86
[P0TS]
Members
29 posts
312 battles

I'm just going to have to strongly disagree on your opinion portion... and it comes to a simple reason as:

More DD's = Less BB's = Less Damage to Farm.

The experience players get when they get big damage numbers is something I think that most players enjoy.

DD's also really don't support a more "dynamic" match for all classes. I feel that BB's will play more passive as many will fear the increased torpedo threat of DD's. Of course there isn't really a way to measure how passive/aggressive matches are so it's just a "feeling."

When you have 4-5 DD's per match there really is a significant less amount of total health in the match. It really makes the game less enjoyable for Battleship players as they have already had limited options to combat DD's.

I honestly don't see a high BB population as being a problem (unless BB's themselves were overperforming) due to my previous points of the damage being significantly less.

I think ideally we would have 2-4 DD's per match, with 4 DD's being rare.

Edited by ThighSenpai
  • Cool 2
  • Thanks 9
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,447
Members
690 posts
20 battles
18 minutes ago, ThighSenpai said:

More DD's = Less BB's = Less Damage to Farm.

The experience players get when they get big damage numbers is something I think that most players enjoy.

What makes you think that people play the game just to farm damage on BB's?  BB's trading shots at range is some of the least engaging game play in the game.

 

21 minutes ago, ThighSenpai said:

DD's also really don't support a more "dynamic" match for all classes. I feel that BB's will play more passive as many will fear the increased torpedo threat of DD's. Of course there isn't really a way to measure how passive/aggressive matches are so it's just a "feeling."

Well the threat of torp DD's is pretty low, and a large proportion of the DD's played are gunboats that don't provide much of a torp threat.  Also BB's cause other BB's as well as cruisers to play more passively, so less BB's mean less threat, and less passive play.  Those BB's that do still play passively will have less negative effect overall since they will be lower in number.  These are trends, not absolutes.  It's quite clear that despite the higher number of BB's, passive play has been markedly reduced.  If what you were saying about the torpedo threat of DD's was correct, the game would be more passive, not less.  Given that, it's quite clear that more BB's equals more passive play, a conclusion that was obvious before, but is even more apparent with this change in population.

 

26 minutes ago, ThighSenpai said:

When you have 4-5 DD's per match there really is a significant less amount of total health in the match. It really makes the game less enjoyable for Battleship players as they have already had limited options to combat DD's.

Clearly making the game less enjoyable for BB's is a very good thing, given the clear benefits to the meta when there are 3-4 BB's per team instead of 5.

 

26 minutes ago, ThighSenpai said:

I honestly don't see a high BB population as being a problem (unless BB's themselves were overperforming) due to my previous points of the damage being significantly less.

I think ideally we would have 2-4 DD's per match, with 4 DD's being rare. 

The ideal is a balanced population: 3-4 BB's, 3-4 cruisers, 3-4 DD's, 1 CV per team on average.  That is what we are getting closer to now, and the game is better for it.  It would be nice if BB population could continue to drop to be a little more balanced, but even the drops in BB populations and rises in cruiser and DD populations this patch has had a very positive effect on the game.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
293
[SHAN]
Beta Testers
564 posts

You can use statistics to say anything. 

 

Cirran

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,447
Members
690 posts
20 battles
7 minutes ago, Cirran said:

You can use statistics to say anything.

You're right, so we may as well never use statistics to analyse anything ever again!  I'll be sure to tell all those statisticians and data analysts out there that their jobs are now defunct, and that we are going to be just using 'feels' to work stuff out from now on.  I'm sure there won't be any issues with that.

Thanks for your input.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25
[U_U]
Members
57 posts
12,423 battles

Making a specific ship weaker at taking you down will not make the less skilled players in this ship type get better at the game. It just ruins the overall balance. DDs are strategic in game and therefore very hard to approach and play properly, and this is for good reasons. I admire those who are tacit in their maneuvers in their destroyers, but for those who whine about CV spotting and don't mind improving themselves (and end up getting WG to nerf CV again and again)...well if you wanna look at the devil, you only need to look into a mirror.

  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,100
[KWF]
Members
6,570 posts
7,187 battles

To be honest what the stats tell me is that CAs keep being at an awkward spot; they should be outnumbering DDs and following closely BBs, yet that is not the case.

Again though, as pointed out release events play a role; in less than a month we will have an influx of Dutch cruisers. With the constant new lines it gets somewhat difficult to gauge ship type popularity objectively.

Edited by warheart1992
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,566 posts
7,729 battles
2 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

To be honest what the stats tell me is that CAs keep being at an awkward spot; they should be outnumbering DDs and following closely BBs, yet that is not the case.

Again though, as pointed out release events play a role; in less than a month we will have an influx of Dutch cruisers. With the constant new lines it gets somewhat difficult to gauge ship type popularity objectively.

We also have grand battles, and the number of BB players in queu is always at 60+ when i am playing, usually im the only cruiser there. Good times.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,120
[RLGN]
Members
16,603 posts
29,025 battles
3 hours ago, Slimeball91 said:

There was just a new DD line going live, and Grand Battles have pulled a lot of BB players out of Randoms.  I'd bet that accounts for the change we're seeing.

11 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

We also have grand battles, and the number of BB players in queu is always at 60+ when i am playing, usually im the only cruiser there. Good times.

One less such here, since I haven’t bothered to play Grand Battles, not seeing much point to it after the PTS version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
513
[THICC]
Beta Testers
1,109 posts
7,280 battles

Shocking indeed.  When one of the only effective counters to destroyers is removed, people begin playing them more.  Very strange.  Also, I think it is important to note that effectively 5% of players shifted from BBs to DDs on all servers.  That is not a coincidence, but a definite change.  It is not just that destroyers are more powerful, but that carriers now focus on farming damage on battleships rather than going after destroyers.  This makes playing BB much less fun than it was.  Cruisers are notably unchanged in population as things have not gotten considerably better or worse for them.

  • Cool 3
  • Boring 2
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,566 posts
7,729 battles
Just now, Estimated_Prophet said:

One less such here, since I haven’t bothered to play Grand Battles, not seeing much point to it after the PTS version.

Its great money xD

I finished off the GFk, Henri IV and Elbing grind in it in less than 50 battles.

Saint louis was bringing in just shy of a million silver in my games with her..and now im back down to ~7million(or less cant remember off the top of my head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,566 posts
7,729 battles
1 minute ago, LuckyStarFan said:

Shocking indeed.  When one of the only effective counters to destroyers is removed, people begin playing them more.  Very strange.

Ah yes. One of the only Effective counters..that wasnt in every single match played for one thing, and to include radar, hydro and other dds. Theres still 3 very effective counters.

Also @Moggytwo
I find the detailed player numbers far better, and a better visual for the state of the matchmaker.

The one that shows that all ships battle numbers are down across the board, and the one that shows that the w/l, avg exp, avg damage, avg kdr for all ships hasnt changed much.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
4,399 posts
4,771 battles
20 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

We also have grand battles, and the number of BB players in queu is always at 60+ when i am playing, usually im the only cruiser there. Good times.

I'm quite happy I never have to actually touch grand battles apart from getting my few games to unlock my Satsuma for some play. That's the cherry on top for me lol
It's a game mode I play like 3 times a week and don't touch it outside of playing Satsuma as I genuinely enjoy Satsuma. Also I don't have Tier 9 ships I'm currently grinding so that works

Actually wish this game mode was available when grinding my Kitakaze. So many easy targets and damage sponges for me to shoot.

~Hunter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,519
[--K--]
[--K--]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
2,896 posts
10,568 battles
32 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Ah yes. One of the only Effective counters..that wasnt in every single match played for one thing, and to include radar, hydro and other dds. Theres still 3 very effective counters.

Also @Moggytwo
I find the detailed player numbers far better, and a better visual for the state of the matchmaker.

The one that shows that all ships battle numbers are down across the board, and the one that shows that the w/l, avg exp, avg damage, avg kdr for all ships hasnt changed much.

Thanks for saving me the trouble, +1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,447
Members
690 posts
20 battles
1 hour ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Ah yes. One of the only Effective counters..that wasnt in every single match played for one thing, and to include radar, hydro and other dds. Theres still 3 very effective counters.

To be fair, those things are pretty easy to play around, it's not like radar or hydro are of particular concern to a well played DD, and combating other DD's isn't really a counter, it's just doing your job.  CV's had a depressing influence on DD numbers because there were plenty of DD players who felt that it limited their positioning ability and effectiveness excessively.  I personally quite enjoy playing my DD's in CV battles, but plenty of DD players really do not enjoy it, and it's these players who will be spending more time in DD's now.

 

1 hour ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Also @Moggytwo
I find the detailed player numbers far better, and a better visual for the state of the matchmaker.

The one that shows that all ships battle numbers are down across the board, and the one that shows that the w/l, avg exp, avg damage, avg kdr for all ships hasnt changed much.

That's where I got the data from, it's just pulled straight from the page that shows all those data points, and converted to a percentage.  The win/loss, XP, damage, kdr not changing is irrelevant - the RF change won't have changed any of that.  What has changed is the perception of how much freedom a DD has to do their job, which means people who limited their DD play due to not enjoying the effect that a CV had on their DD's now are much happier to play them, and the follow on repercussions from that.

 

2 hours ago, CaliburxZero said:

Thanks for saving me the trouble, +1

Solid input, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,566 posts
7,729 battles
5 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

To be fair, those things are pretty easy to play around, it's not like radar or hydro are of particular concern to a well played DD, and combating other DD's isn't really a counter, it's just doing your job.  CV's had a depressing influence on DD numbers because there were plenty of DD players who felt that it limited their positioning ability and effectiveness excessively.  I personally quite enjoy playing my DD's in CV battles, but plenty of DD players really do not enjoy it, and it's these players who will be spending more time in DD's now.

 

That's where I got the data from, it's just pulled straight from the page that shows all those data points, and converted to a percentage.  The win/loss, XP, damage, kdr not changing is irrelevant - the RF change won't have changed any of that.  What has changed is the perception of how much freedom a DD has to do their job, which means people who limited their DD play due to not enjoying the effect that a CV had on their DD's now are much happier to play them, and the follow on repercussions from that.

 

Solid input, thanks.

To the first paragraph, True enough i was always cautious when taking a DD out in randoms due to the possibility of a CV being in the match. It didnt stop me from playing them, but i did use them less(also im bad at them in randoms)

To the second paragraph, i wasnt sure. The formatting is all screwey cause im on my phone at the moment. Unfortunently i dont think the data takes into account the drain on players playing Grand Battles, does it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,447
Members
690 posts
20 battles
2 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

To the first paragraph, True enough i was always cautious when taking a DD out in randoms due to the possibility of a CV being in the match. It didnt stop me from playing them, but i did use them less(also im bad at them in randoms)

If you used them less because of CV's, and that is something that a significant section of the player base also did, that is the effect that CV's had on the DD population.  An effect that has been dramatically reduced.

3 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

To the second paragraph, i wasnt sure. The formatting is all screwey cause im on my phone at the moment. Unfortunently i dont think the data takes into account the drain on players playing Grand Battles, does it?

I apologise, I should have put it in a table, but the table function on these forums is just awful to use.  My bad.

It definitely doesn't take into account Grand Battles, and that could well be influencing it, but there are always events on that create population changes to some degree.  Normally those changes are only a few percent here and there - the change in numbers this patch has been quite marked in comparison however.  These are initial numbers, it remains to be seen what the trend is going forward.  I can only hope these numbers continue in a similar vein though, because the change to the meta has been both very noticeable and very positive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,566 posts
7,729 battles
2 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

If you used them less because of CV's, and that is something that a significant section of the player base also did, that is the effect that CV's had on the DD population.  An effect that has been dramatically reduced.

I apologise, I should have put it in a table, but the table function on these forums is just awful to use.  My bad.

It definitely doesn't take into account Grand Battles, and that could well be influencing it, but there are always events on that create population changes to some degree.  Normally those changes are only a few percent here and there - the change in numbers this patch has been quite marked in comparison however.  These are initial numbers, it remains to be seen what the trend is going forward.  I can only hope these numbers continue in a similar vein though, because the change to the meta has been both very noticeable and very positive.

To the First, yup i agree.

To the second, no worries, isnt your fault, just like people who use white or grey text because they have their webpage set to night mode.

I also wonder if now that players have finished the dockyard off are taking a break, i know i am. Has there been drastic changes in the past due to that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,011
[SYN]
Members
9,068 posts
16,690 battles

I would be amazed if the slight DD increases are due solely to the rocket plane changes. The new line release bump to numbers is a pretty well understood phenomenon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40
[-MN-]
Members
107 posts
5,367 battles
8 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Now let's compare it to the one week population data from 26 June 2021:

Nice thread, thanks! I guess it would be nice if you could do the same analysis in about two months (after Grand Battles are finished, new cruisers released...)

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22
[MOD]
Members
42 posts
4,917 battles

WG nerfs rocket planes to make it significantly harder to hit DDs (and DD players, at this point if you're *still* getting hit by rockets, it's 100% on you).

CV players aim those rocket planes at BBs and stop trying to spot DDs for the team as much.

BBs are now more constantly on fire due to being the HE rocket target of choice.

BBs get torpedoed more due to DDs losing a predator.

BBs dying significantly faster due to previous 2 points.

BB population down. 

*shockedpikachu*

 

And leaving aside the larger CV balance, the rocket change is a failure. The time between when you hit the button to loose the ordnance and when it lands is now 5+ seconds in a pretty wide dispersion while broadcasting where the rockets will land. Hitting DDs with any appreciable number of rockets is not a measure of skill from the CV player, it's luck mixed with a DD player not paying attention.

Edited by DragonPup
  • Funny 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
62
[SALVO]
Members
40 posts
3,948 battles

CV population is unchanged because it is still the easiest class to play and many CV players never bothered to learn map positions required to excel at other classes

  • Cool 3
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×