What's up with the Hawkins?

[Done_Dirt_Cheap]

I mean... the thing is a floating unprotected citadel.

And that's not hyperbole! I think I have 12 matches in this turd and in at least half those matches, I have been killed by multiple citadel salvos.   I'm starting to have PTSD ("Pepsicola Traumatic Stress Syndrome").

Whoever coded this thing needs a slap upside their head I tell you.  At first i thought I was just unlucky or I goofed and turned into a broadside or something, but after 3 matches in a row where 30K HP got wiped in a single salvo, i started paying more attention. That's when i watched this weirdness first hand.  A Texas shot at me from ~15-18 km away or so and I saw it coming the whole way. I had turned my Hawkins away from the salvo and 90% of his rounds went into the water at my stern and about 3 or 4 hit me AFT of the last turret.... and that gave be a triple citadel for 30K damage and insta-death!

I will not be keeping this junk ship in my port I tell you... ugh!

 

 

[Lord_Slayer]

there are several ships in the game, spread among all tiers, that are able to be citadeled with ease.

It is for you, the player, to learn how best to keep your ship intact. This may mean fighting from range, from behind islands or learning which angles your ship must take to bounce shells.

[Done_Dirt_Cheap]

18 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

there are several ships in the game, spread among all tiers, that are able to be citadeled with ease.

It is for you, the player, to learn how best to keep your ship intact. This may mean fighting from range, from behind islands or learning which angles your ship must take to bounce shells.

Yes.  Sorry,  I should have maybe mentioned that this isn't my first rodeo in ships.   I just came back after a 4 year hiatus and I had a previous (now deleted) account with about 15K battles.  I'm well aware of the basic gameplay and physics in this game and - absolutely - this ship is an outlier in it's extreme vulnerability to citadels.   I asked a few other vets in-game and most of them told me they completely skipped the Hawkins and one of the later tier progressions (Can't remember the name).  That would explain why I rarely see another one in game, unless it's a bot mirror.

The Pensacola had this problem as well, back in the original Tech Tree ver 1.0.   For example... in my example above, my point was the rounds that did actually hit my ship hit only the stern, behind the last turret.  Now, I haven't gone and dug into the modelling data on this ship, but AFAIK, most ships only have one citadel back there, which is under the last turret - and I don't think it is possible to have multiple hits on the  same citadel.  After all... once the HP in that zone is depleted - it's depleted.

I'm sure WG can argue some rounds went through that aft citadel and then proceeded through two more - however, that's hard to back up when the rounds came in at about a 30 degree downward angle.  Hey, I get blowed up with the best of them ... on many occasions.  I'm an aggressive and impatient player :)  But when even New Yorks, with their terrible dispersion, are knocking multiple cits off my Hawkins from 15km away, then you know something is not right.

 

[LunchCutter]

Try the Pensacola, it gets Citadeled by AA guns.

[pepe_trueno]

Hawkins has a super easy to hit citadel so if someone catch a glimpse of your side you are toasted,  the terrible gun position dosent help in keeping your sides hiden.

on the positive Hawkings can be a tought nut to crack when bow tanking thanks to part of the bow being 38mm.

 

all in all is a terrible ship that can bow tank but its guns are plain horrible

 

the ship is a floating citadel with a superstructure 

[Helstrem]

1 hour ago, Done_Dirt_Cheap said:

I mean... the thing is a floating unprotected citadel.

And that's not hyperbole! I think I have 12 matches in this turd and in at least half those matches, I have been killed by multiple citadel salvos.   I'm starting to have PTSD ("Pepsicola Traumatic Stress Syndrome").

Whoever coded this thing needs a slap upside their head I tell you.  At first i thought I was just unlucky or I goofed and turned into a broadside or something, but after 3 matches in a row where 30K HP got wiped in a single salvo, i started paying more attention. That's when i watched this weirdness first hand.  A Texas shot at me from ~15-18 km away or so and I saw it coming the whole way. I had turned my Hawkins away from the salvo and 90% of his rounds went into the water at my stern and about 3 or 4 hit me AFT of the last turret.... and that gave be a triple citadel for 30K damage and insta-death!

I will not be keeping this junk ship in my port I tell you... ugh!

 

 

Hawkins is easily the tankiest Tier V cruiser if you keep her angled.  Very little of her plating can be overmatched by any AP shell she can face, even fail dived into facing Tier VIII BBs.

Broadside and she does what broadside cruisers often do, explodes.

[black_hull4]

29 minutes ago, Done_Dirt_Cheap said:

and I don't think it is possible to have multiple hits on the  same citadel.  After all... once the HP in that zone is depleted - it's depleted.

I have seen Atlantas get 13 citadels on the same ship, so where the  did you get that info?

And I suppose you know of the "Torpitz Dream": sailing between 2 enemy battleships and lunching torps from both sides, killing both? HMS Hawkins is still the only ship I've ever pulled that off with. I ground through British cruisers specifically to get Hawkins & Emerald; I have no interest in going further.

♦

[Wolfswetpaws]

1 hour ago, Done_Dirt_Cheap said:

I mean... the thing is a floating unprotected citadel.

And that's not hyperbole! I think I have 12 matches in this turd and in at least half those matches, I have been killed by multiple citadel salvos.   I'm starting to have PTSD ("Pepsicola Traumatic Stress Syndrome").

Whoever coded this thing needs a slap upside their head I tell you.  At first i thought I was just unlucky or I goofed and turned into a broadside or something, but after 3 matches in a row where 30K HP got wiped in a single salvo, i started paying more attention. That's when i watched this weirdness first hand.  A Texas shot at me from ~15-18 km away or so and I saw it coming the whole way. I had turned my Hawkins away from the salvo and 90% of his rounds went into the water at my stern and about 3 or 4 hit me AFT of the last turret.... and that gave be a triple citadel for 30K damage and insta-death!

I will not be keeping this junk ship in my port I tell you... ugh!

 

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/221037-if-our-commanders-could-talk/?do=findComment&comment=5337526

[Almedius]

It's one of the worst ships I've played...The Devonshire is MUCH better though...

[xHeavy]

39 minutes ago, pepe_trueno said:

Hawkins has a super easy to hit citadel so if someone catch a glimpse of your side you are toasted,  the terrible gun position dosent help in keeping your sides hiden.

on the positive Hawkings can be a tought nut to crack when bow tanking thanks to part of the bow being 38mm.

 

all in all is a terrible ship that can bow tank but its guns are plain horrible

 

the ship is a floating citadel with a superstructure 

My word, that is a horrible citadel layout. I would try to put the rounds just ahead of the first stack abaft the bridge quarterdeck. Crit that thing all day.

I usually try to use ships that have Citadel at the water line. Such as Bourgogne.

[Cit_the_bed]

Slow rate of fire. Build for range and spam HE on targets. No effect on course of battle. 

The heavy Uk cruiser grind is one of the worst in the game.

[ArIskandir]

Don't despair, Hawkins is a lot of fun!

Use islands and roleplay a pirate, arghh!  Don't fight fair, enage guys that are not looking at you and turn tail and run when they start noticing you... Don't be afraid to run from the law after you got some booty!

[Estimated_Prophet]

Hawkins got all the guns; (and the HE shells,) while Emerald got all the torpedoes.

Hawkins torpedoes are worthless, (too few of them,) Emerald’s guns are worthless, (RN CL SAP.)

Both are squishy as hell, but I still like them.

Hawkins guns can be brutal to contemporaries in the same way the Omahas are.

Emerald is just about a T5 RN Shimakaze. Anyone who doesn’t pay attention to where one is, or who lets one get close and doesn’t manage to kill it had better pray to RNGesus for some kind of mercy, because sure enough a reasonably competent Emerald driver isn’t going to give them any.

[Done_Dirt_Cheap]

Like several other "road bumps" in progression, I'll use the Hawkins to force me out of my comfort zone and try new things.  At least until I get enough XP to move on

[mofton]

Hawkins is just a terrible choice between exploding, or staying angled with only the trash firepower of 2-3 of your rubbish, long reload, weak hitting, slow ballistics, short ranged Elizabethan Galleon cannons.

[remington79]

I use Hawkins to knock out getting missions that need fire ribbons. That thing sets them like crazy. 
 

On the other hand the Pepsi seems to do alright citidaling others. Especially Omaha’s and Oktober Rev. I look for those two when I need cits. Otherwise I jump up to DM and Salem. 
 

But Hawkins, Hawkins will burn some stuff down. 

[DrHolmes52]

1 minute ago, remington79 said:

I use Hawkins to knock out getting missions that need fire ribbons. That thing sets them like crazy. 
 

On the other hand the Pepsi seems to do alright citidaling others. Especially Omaha’s and Oktober Rev. I look for those two when I need cits. Otherwise I jump up to DM and Salem. 

With the Pepsi, you may be able to cit an Omaha from the front.

[Skpstr]

13 hours ago, Done_Dirt_Cheap said:

I'm well aware of the basic gameplay and physics in this game and - absolutely - this ship is an outlier in it's extreme vulnerability to citadels.  

 

It's not that much of an outlier. Most cruisers at that tier are just as vulnerable.

The difference between Hawkins and the worst 3 offenders is that Omaha has great agility, Emerald has good agility, amazing throttle response, and smoke, and Konigsberg can stay far enough away that dodging is a lot easier.

Hawkins really doesn't have any saving graces defensively.

Once you get to Devonshire, although I'd still like a bit more range, it's a pretty solid cruiser all round, and from there on up, more tanky.

[Skpstr]

12 hours ago, Cit_the_bed said:

Slow rate of fire. Build for range and spam HE on targets. No effect on course of battle. 

The heavy Uk cruiser grind is one of the worst in the game.

I had a lot of fun with Devonshire, and Surrey seems ok.

I found the HE more or less like IJN HE. Sets enough fires, and has enough alpha, that you can affect the battle quite handily.

[Princess_Daystar]

13 hours ago, Helstrem said:

Hawkins is easily the tankiest Tier V cruiser if you keep her angled.  Very little of her plating can be overmatched by any AP shell she can face, even fail dived into facing Tier VIII BBs.

Broadside and she does what broadside cruisers often do, explodes.

Yup, love my hawkins. Her odd gun size is fun too.

13 hours ago, black_hull4 said:

I have seen Atlantas get 13 citadels on the same ship, so where the  did you get that info?

And I suppose you know of the "Torpitz Dream": sailing between 2 enemy battleships and lunching torps from both sides, killing both? HMS Hawkins is still the only ship I've ever pulled that off with. I ground through British cruisers specifically to get Hawkins & Emerald; I have no interest in going further.

♦

My record is 40 citadels in an Atlanta >.>

10 or 12 on 4 different cruisers, good times!

[Ensign_Cthulhu]

11 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Emerald is just about a T5 RN Shimakaze.

Isn't the more appropriate comparison with Benham (two quads per side)?

[Jemention]

15 hours ago, Done_Dirt_Cheap said:

...one of the later tier progressions (Can't remember the name).

Probably the Tier 8 Albemarle, it also has a horrible massive stepped citadel and insufficient armor. With only 25mm extremities, it tends to get hammered by BBs both from the front and back as shells punch through and straight into the high citadel hump. 

The Tier 6, Devonshire has a flat, relatively small citadel for the line, though still a bit above waterline. Its a bit more comfortable to play.

Tier 7, Surrey technically has a humped citadel but its pretty small and low in comparison, its not nearly the shell magnet that is the Hawkins or Albemarle.

Tier 9 Drake has a flat citadel thats long but lower than Albemarle thanks to the lack of the hump.

Tier 10 Goliath does have a humped citadel but its considerably lower and more narrow than Albemarle so takes less citadel hits from the front or back.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

23 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

Try the Pensacola, it gets Citadeled by AA guns.

Pensacola has 25mm armor all around her hull, at Tier VI there are many 356mm or so armed Battleships that will get trolled by her if angled or even bow on.  Even Tier VIII Odin and her 305mm guns will find herself in trouble against any Pensacola that isn't giving a full on broadside to quickly delete her.

 

If you want trash armor for Cruisers, look no further than the vast majority of Russian Cruisers, particularly in mid tiers.  Tier V Kirov and her tech tree replacement have belt armor so thin that 203mm SAP can Overmatch the belt and Citadel them.  I'm not talking the extremities, but the belt armor on the side / middle of the ship.  FYI, 203mm SAP cannot do that against Emerald and Omaha because their belts are too well protected to get Overmatched by those same shells.

 

Schors, Chapayev.  Even Kutuzov if you can get a salvo in on her.  Etc.  Many more of those RU Cruisers get deleted pretty easy, it's why they MUST play at range.  I know people like to whine so much about Petropavlovsk, but she does not represent how Russian Cruisers are protected in this game.  Even Moskva and Stalingrad collapse like a house of cards if anyone so much as glances at their sides.

[Lord_Slayer]

19 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

Try the Pensacola, it gets Citadeled by AA guns.

 

5 hours ago, DrHolmes52 said:

With the Pepsi, you may be able to cit an Omaha from the front.

 

3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Pensacola has 25mm armor all around her armor, at Tier VI there are many 356mm or so armed Battleships that will get trolled by her if angled or even bow on.  Even Tier VIII Odin and her 305mm guns will find herself in trouble against any Pensacola that isn't giving a full on broadside to quickly delete her.

See, I always dreaded the Pensacola as I grinded towards it......

however

I ended up never having a problem with it even before the line split.

[pepe_trueno]

7 hours ago, Skpstr said:

It's not that much of an outlier. Most cruisers at that tier are just as vulnerable.

The difference between Hawkins and the worst 3 offenders is that Omaha has great agility, Emerald has good agility, amazing throttle response, and smoke, and Konigsberg can stay far enough away that dodging is a lot easier.

Hawkins really doesn't have any saving graces defensively.

Once you get to Devonshire, although I'd still like a bit more range, it's a pretty solid cruiser all round, and from there on up, more tanky.

to be fair with a bit of luck hawkins bow armor can deflect olmost any ap,  i think the problem has more to do with the terrible guns. the mix of poor dpm and horrible placement push hawkin players into showing broadsides, now add its gigantic citadel and we get a recipe for disaster

i mean when was the last time a hawking got a match like this?

give hawkins guns and guns placement like the konigsberg and it will go from zero to hero in a blink of an eye.