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Just returned to World of Tanks

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I just played a day of World of Tanks, have been inactive for about 6 months. I noticed that they rant about artillery in that game like some rant about CVs in this game.

The funny thing is, Artillery killed the mass tank attack in WW2 and CVs killed the Battleship!

This could be considered a frontline game (or FEBA, forward edge of the battle area) where we could be forgiven if we just excluded those two units.

I think CVs and Artillery are support units (and should be MORE lethal) and can be handled more abstractly in Wargamming world.

What do you think?

 

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I think a game called World of Warships should be just that. CVs were a small part of the war in the Atlantic. Now days CVs have become the most influential part of this game. The silent majority never wanted the rework but here we are all this time later and WG is still shoving it down our throats.

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Back when I played WoT Arty and RTS CVs, what I liked the most about them was that it was a whole different mini game within the Main game. A different experience and it kept the game fresh for me, it wasn't every day I felt like going into hardcore PvP, some days I just wanted to relax, eat a sandwich while watching the game unfold in classic RTS view and click here or there to possibly tip the balance of the match. 

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How are they shoving it down your throat? You chose to down load a warship game which include all classes of ships including both CV and Subs.  My only problem is trying to calm down the pamper player's who don't know( or like) how to deal with certain types of ship's. My suggestion is to simply learn.

 

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I miss the old CV's....where a player could by choice forego early dmg to nerf the other teams cv into the ground defending their team and rendering the enemy CV combat ineffective as no magic plane factory onboard....  because that was my obj as a CV establish tactical air supremacy and then start targeting enemy ships with shitey anti-aircraft bubbling...

the "new" rework has convinced me CV's dont belong in WoWS in their current state....also fk midway/fdr torp drops

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51 minutes ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

I think a game called World of Warships should be just that. CVs were a small part of the war in the Atlantic.

You are creating a strawman argument here because the WWII was a world war and not just confined to the Atlantic. The US had 5 fleet carriers stationed in the Atlantic at one time or another in WWII plus numerous escort carriers. However, for the most part carriers were not needed in the Atlantic and Mediterranean as land-based bombers could reach most of the necessary areas. I don't think that many really grasp just how large the pacific is. Viewed from over its center, just about all you see is the Pacific ocean from space. It only a little farther from the US to Britain than it is across the US mainland. It's 7,000 miles from the US mainland the the Philippines. The Earth has a diameter of 7,917 miles.

This is why carriers were needed in the Pacific.

image.thumb.png.501afcd452e98eeba6393d4cfc29d2c3.png

Edited by Snargfargle
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49 minutes ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

I think a game called World of Warships should be just that. CVs were a small part of the war in the Atlantic. Now days CVs have become the most influential part of this game. The silent majority never wanted the rework but here we are all this time later and WG is still shoving it down our throats.

Wargaming never realized what has drawn the majority of players to WOWs is the ability to fight with WWI and WWII surface ships in battles naval planners had only dreamed of usually. Instead of the reality that had happened where CVs grew into dominance.

WG insisting CVs be a force in the game move their game from uniqueness into a sea of rival games that features air combat and is a category WOWs will all to easily die in as dozens of other games do flight combat better.

And then likely to attempt to fix these CV  issues they did cv Rework, and the even worse captain skills Rework. This has been a growing pattern of increasingly worse disasters.

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9 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

You are creating a strawman argument here because the WWII was a world war and not just confined to the Atlantic. The US had 5 fleet carriers stationed in the Atlantic at one time or another in WWII plus numerous escort carriers. However, for the most part carriers were not needed in the Atlantic and Mediterranean as land-based bombers could reach most of the necessary areas. I don't think that many really grasp just how large the pacific is. Viewed from over its center, just about all you see is the Pacific ocean from space. It only a little farther from the US to Britain than it is across the US mainland. It's 7,000 miles from the US mainland the the Philippines. The Earth has a diameter of 7,917 miles.

This is why carriers were needed in the Pacific.

image.thumb.png.501afcd452e98eeba6393d4cfc29d2c3.png


Stop pushing Flat Earth theory on me dude.  

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1 hour ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

I think a game called World of Warships should be just that. CVs were a small part of the war in the Atlantic. Now days CVs have become the most influential part of this game. The silent majority never wanted the rework but here we are all this time later and WG is still shoving it down our throats.

Subs played a critical role in the Atlantic (yet they are taking very special care to ensure they aren't "op").

Subs also sank nearly 40% of the IJN CVs in WW2 (yet they are taking YEARS, and very special care to ensure they aren't "op").

I just wonder what would have happened if they were as careful about CV balance as they have been about Sub balance. They are putting extreme limits on the one thing that makes a sub a sub (diving is nerfed into oblivion). A bit ironic really, imagine if they were as hard on planes for CVs as they are on diving with SS's.

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i just finished a tier 8 (yeah really) game with 4 tier 8 cvs. 2 Lexingtons our side, a Shokaku and a Lexington opposition. The Shokaku killed 5 of our team. Their Lex 1. Our CVs killed 1 total. There was a complete imbalance  in that our AA did NOTHING to stop the Shokaku planes (tier 7s and 8s), EVEN when  we combined AA zones. And the dramatic ability differences in the CV captains... well the numbers dont lie.

The CV now has such a dramatic impact on games (and oh... not just 1 cv... lets add another per side), I personally dont understand the logic of adding more per match. DO you really not understand how dramatic their impact really is? Yes we took all three caps.... held for a while... and then the Shokaku decided to go to work. ( He/she was one of the best cv players I have seen. ONE ship, yes ONE ship completely dominated the match). If WG thinks this is FUN to play, well it isnt. 

Notice the ques to play.... 4cvs  ...  50bbs ... 20 cas.... 14 DDs..... this is normal random numbers.. hmm, where is the main player base? It doesnt matter. WG will focus on making the CV, and eventually subs the kings of their focus. 

And when the game eventually dies by them continually pissing off the customer base that spends money like I have, they will wonder why. 

But hey, I can play and not spend a dime cant I.... 

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1 hour ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

The silent majority never wanted the rework but here we are all this time later and WG is still shoving it down our throats.

I am really curious on how you know what the "silent majority" never wanted if they really are silent. Things that make me think hmmmmmm. :Smile_unsure:

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1 hour ago, hammer_1 said:

 

The funny thing is, Artillery killed the mass tank attack in WW2

 

If I recall correctly: Not really the case.  When I think of massed tank actions, I think Eastern Front.     Massed tank attacks were the Russian go-to tactic and were not stopped by arty as far as I can recall.  The Russians - when they were stopped - were stopped by combined tactics- and the Germans never really had enough artillery for it to be the one decisive thing holding the Russians at bay

From the other direction the truly massive amount of arty at the Russian's disposal certainly banged up the Germans, but it was usually used to open engagements, to soften up locations, and too unwieldy to 'call in' after the battle was started.  Also it was often used ineffectively.  Basically once either army was on the offensive, the other was unable to coordinate large county artillery,; the Russians because thier chain of command was  not flexible. The German chain of command was highly flexible, but they just didn't have the guns in number.

Germans had anti-tank guns, the Russians had anti-tank guns mounted on thousands of  tanks - tens of thousands of tanks. Which is why when people ask "what was so good about the T-34?' I answer: 'a T-34 was ten T-34s'.

Naturally the US had coordinated arty, but massed tank attacks were not really a thing by the time the US got into the war.   But arty did indeed take out many a tank.

 

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Personally I have always thought each game should have AI attack planes(basically off-map units) and the role of the CV's should be fleet defense,  alternatively give each side strategic points on the map to attack (radar stations, airstrips, ports etc)  

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World of Warships should include ships of war, imo. subs should be here, mine layers perhaps, and whatever other type we're missing. They should not be rushed, they should make sense, and it should be interesting. If it doesn't make sense, if it doesn't work with the current mechanics in the game, then it should not arrive. CVs are close to being balanced, but not yet. Until then, I will contribute the data showing why they don't, as best I can :) 

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44 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Wargaming never realized what has drawn the majority of players to WOWs is the ability to fight with WWI and WWII surface ships in battles naval planners had only dreamed of usually. Instead of the reality that had happened where CVs grew into dominance.

WG insisting CVs be a force in the game move their game from uniqueness into a sea of rival games that features air combat and is a category WOWs will all to easily die in as dozens of other games do flight combat better.

And then likely to attempt to fix these CV  issues they did cv Rework, and the even worse captain skills Rework. This has been a growing pattern of increasingly worse disasters.

This highlights the “let’s have everything in one pot” approach that WG has embraced. Honestly there are elements that I enjoy: seeing the beautiful 3D models of all the different classes represented. But is it fun to throw everything into the single battle mode called “Random”, and it’s other identical-with-minor-tweaks game modes? Not always...

What I really enjoy you pointing out is the niche that WoWS truly fills - that of the surface battles that never were due to the “evolution” in naval warfare. War Plan Orange was a game (I was never able to get it) of a hypothetical 1920s Pacific war with no treaty limitations, in the late 20s or 30s. WoWS is the only game I have ever seen that gives these ships a 3D image and “playground” to see them in action. IMHO this is/was a big draw. Adding the other classes obviously modifies that appeal. I wish there were more game modes to cater to the different players - there would be much less toxicity.

 

21 minutes ago, USMC_FMF said:

Subs played a critical role in the Atlantic (yet they are taking very special care to ensure they aren't "op").

Subs also sank nearly 40% of the IJN CVs in WW2 (yet they are taking YEARS, and very special care to ensure they aren't "op").

I just wonder what would have happened if they were as careful about CV balance as they have been about Sub balance. They are putting extreme limits on the one thing that makes a sub a sub (diving is nerfed into oblivion). A bit ironic really, imagine if they were as hard on planes for CVs as they are on diving with SS's.

When I play as surface ships, I hate CVs, primarily for their spotting abilities, and also for their ability to cherry pick targets - no limping away with low HP if the red CV knows his game. But when I play CVs I get so frustrated that their weapons are so neutered, so I often harass the reds by spotting, which is not the most fun. I feel Subs will also be a similar experience, despite the careful roll out.

But your comment also reminds me - if I liked subs...will WoWS subs deliver a better experience than Silent Hunter (on easy mode)? Graphically perhaps, but it seems far more gimmick-y, like Subs are being force fed into the game.

_________
It’s WG’s game, they can do what they want. I encourage them to investigate multiple game modes:

  • Give subs convoys to attack, and DD players convoys to escort.
  • Give naval surface warfare players a mode where they can explore surface actions only.
  • Give CV players a mode that allows them to feel the actual power CVs bring. 
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59 minutes ago, Viva_Palestine said:

If I recall correctly: Not really the case.  When I think of massed tank actions, I think Eastern Front.     Massed tank attacks were the Russian go-to tactic and were not stopped by arty as far as I can recall.  The Russians - when they were stopped - were stopped by combined tactics- and the Germans never really had enough artillery for it to be the one decisive thing holding the Russians at bay

From the other direction the truly massive amount of arty at the Russian's disposal certainly banged up the Germans, but it was usually used to open engagements, to soften up locations, and too unwieldy to 'call in' after the battle was started.  Also it was often used ineffectively.  Basically once either army was on the offensive, the other was unable to coordinate large county artillery,; the Russians because thier chain of command was  not flexible. The German chain of command was highly flexible, but they just didn't have the guns in number.

Germans had anti-tank guns, the Russians had anti-tank guns mounted on thousands of  tanks - tens of thousands of tanks. Which is why when people ask "what was so good about the T-34?' I answer: 'a T-34 was ten T-34s'.

Naturally the US had coordinated arty, but massed tank attacks were not really a thing by the time the US got into the war.   But arty did indeed take out many a tank.

 

I agree artillery did not dominate until late war, but the Sherman was helped greatly against far superior armor by air support and artillery support. It is little known but the US had radar fused artillery by DDay, this no longer required a spotter to set fuse timing and was devastating to German armor.

source: Deathtraps by Beldon Cooper

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51 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Back when I played WoT Arty and RTS CVs, what I liked the most about them was that it was a whole different mini game within the Main game. A different experience and it kept the game fresh for me, it wasn't every day I felt like going into hardcore PvP, some days I just wanted to relax, eat a sandwich while watching the game unfold in classic RTS view and click here or there to possibly tip the balance of the match. 

Yeah all games should have a mechanic that allows 1 person to have too much influence while eating a sandwich and watching tv.

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14 minutes ago, Velled said:

Yeah all games should have a mechanic that allows 1 person to have too much influence while eating a sandwich and watching tv.

Shouldn't be "too much influence", that's what I don't like about their implementation. The objective should be just ways to support your team while experiencing a different more relaxed play style.

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1 hour ago, Altwar said:

I am really curious on how you know what the "silent majority" never wanted if they really are silent. Things that make me think hmmmmmm. :Smile_unsure:

MKULTRA

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3 hours ago, motleytanker said:

How are they shoving it down your throat? You chose to down load a warship game which include all classes of ships including both CV and Subs.  My only problem is trying to calm down the pamper player's who don't know( or like) how to deal with certain types of ship's. My suggestion is to simply learn.

 

For those of us who have been here before the major CV rework and all the other reworks (can someone actually show a comprehensive list?) and Nerf's of premium ship purchased with real money, YES it has been dumped on us.

 

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Simple fix. If Arty & CVs are important for the immersion, have bots run them.
It's only when humans play them that the cries of 'coward' begin.
Unfortunately, there is no math that translates that into corporate profits,
so that ain't happenin'.

As for relaxing, I'm surprised WoT never added a co-op mode.
But then, after their numbers tanked (no pun intended) they prolly felt
like the playerbase wasn't large enough to support it.

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At least back in the day once a CV had all of its planes shot down it had no more planes. I swear AA seemed to work better back then to and DFAA was worth taking. 

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8 hours ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

 CVs were a small part of the war in the Atlantic. 

Ace4vom.gif

aircraft carriers were a small part in the war Atlantic wait I am done laughing at this statement yet 

xzBawIg.gif

Did you perhaps forget or are ignorant that the empire of japan aircraft carriers attack Hawaii you know pearl harbor the reason why U.S join in WW2 :Smile_hiding: Did you also forget or are ignorant that Midway was a crucial battle in Pacific that was fought mainly with aircraft carriers :Smile_teethhappy: That Aircraft carriers are the dominant force in seas which was proven during WW2 :Smile_trollface:  

Dude if you are going to into history at least be sure you are right :Smile_teethhappy:

fdzLQFH.jpg

Having a naval game without CVs that is around WW2 is afront to CVs superiority  :fish_palm: 

 

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8 hours ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

I think a game called World of Warships should be just that. CVs were a small part of the war in the Atlantic. Now days CVs have become the most influential part of this game. The silent majority never wanted the rework but here we are all this time later and WG is still shoving it down our throats.

CVs were a huge part of the war in the Atlantic. US had their Fleet carriers in the Pacific, but the UK had it's fleet carriers in the Atlantic. Still most of the lifting was done by CVEs. There 50 or 60 CVEs in the Atlantic at any given point. The USS Guadalcanal was part of a hunter/killer group and its depth charges drove the U505 to the surface where it was captured. 

 

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