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NobleWhiteManlet

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Let me preface this by saying this thread is done out of curiosity and not trying to troll.

Having said that, while I support trying to eliminate intentional griefing and the like in game, why does this community act like toxicity is such a terrible thing?

Sure, nobody likes getting flamed in chat, but if you made a mistake, and the person calling you out has the skills/knowledge to back it up, maybe you are in the wrong?

I get the point of the game is "fun", but since rewards and XP are win determined, every match outside of CO-OP is by default, competitive. And for competitive players, losing because teammates made bone-headed mistakes isn't fun.

Once again, not trying to troll, just genuinely curious why so many people act like Stat shaming/flaming/"toxic behavior" is so terrible. Anyone who like me grew up in COD lobbies knows that the worst in this game is mild compared to some other communities.

Edited by NobleWhiteManlet
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It’s “wrong” because we play the game for fun.  If you want to help me play better, then do so in a constructive way.  If you’re flaming me, then it’s not because you’re trying to help, you’re just throwing a temper tantrum because you didn’t get the teammates you wanted.

In other words, I’d rather play with polite people who are just OK at the game than a bunch of rude unicums.

Edited by SeaGladius
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How many of the people flaming actually have the stats versus say, someone just going off while being wrong about the entire situation?

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I had 3 game s in a ship and had a player in the port chat tossed every cuss word at me instead of telling me what I could of done different. I went and look at his stats in that same ship he had 70 battles and a 43% win rate. I have seen players in cc streams telling unicum players how to play. 

Giving advice is one thing but ranting does nothing to change.

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12 minutes ago, SeaGladius said:

In other words, I’d rather play with polite people who are just OK at the game than a bunch of rude unicums.

Sorry but I'd rather win with a bunch of rude unicums than lose with a bunch of polite OK players. 

Besides, unicums don't grow on trees; it's far more likely someone is toxic because they don't understand the mechanics or are inexperienced.

Edited by warheart1992
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13 minutes ago, NobleWhiteManlet said:

Let me preface this by saying this thread is done out of curiosity and not trying to troll.

Having said that, while I support trying to eliminate intentional griefing and the like in game, why does this community act like toxicity is such a terrible thing?

Sure, nobody likes getting flamed in chat, but if you made a mistake, and the person calling you out has the skills/knowledge to back it up, maybe you are in the wrong?

I get the point of the game is "fun", but since rewards and XP are win determined, every match outside of CO-OP is by default, competitive. And for competitive players, losing because teammates made bone-headed mistakes isn't fun.

Once again, not trying to troll, just genuinely curious why so many people act like Stat shaming/flaming/"toxic behavior" is so terrible. Anyone who like me grew up in COD lobbies knows that the worst in this game is mild compared to some other communities.

The Fighting Game genre is filled with "Git Gud" taunting and such.  While it works for some, it's really obnoxious for many.  The biggest difference is that in World of Warships you are dependent on teammates as opposed to just experiencing a solo play adventure.

WoWs is a MOBA, and all MOBAs suffer from a toxic environment.  It's a sad truth, but it doesn't mean folks should be encouraging people to be jerks to each other.

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Recent video from a known entity:

 

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45 minutes ago, NobleWhiteManlet said:

while I support trying to eliminate intentional griefing and the like in game, why does this community act like toxicity is such a terrible thing?

Sure, nobody likes getting flamed in chat, but if you made a mistake, and the person calling you out has the skills/knowledge to back it up, maybe you are in the wrong?

I cannot think of any activity (work, fun, family) where toxic behavior is an improvement, or where it is acceptable.

I'm open to suggestions to play better. It's the responsibility of the person offering advice or suggestions to communicate effectively. Flaming, personal attacks, or just vague post-hoc "you shouldn't have done that" are not useful, not actionable, and not effective.

When someone has advice, I try to listen. If it offers insight ("don't bowtank Yamato," "go around that island and we'll set up a cross-shot"), I often roll with it and often also send a compliment for the effort, whether or not their idea was successful. Of course I might have my own ideas or goals (maybe I need secondary hits for a mission), or just not be in the mood, and that's okay too.
When someone has a good idea, but fails to communicate that idea, it dies there. I am not "in the wrong."

Edited by imaginary_b
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12 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

No one owes anyone else any kind of base level of competence at the game.  You don't know who's sitting at the keyboard.  Maybe the person is old.  Maybe they're very young.  Maybe they're disabled.  Maybe this the first game they've ever played.  Maybe their goal is just to shoot at enemy ships and marvel at the pretty colours.  They don't have to play to win. 

Do the world a favour:  don't be a butt. 

 

This made me smile this morning, thanks!

Since joining the forum I have looked forward to your posts and reviews - you have helped me immensely, and I appreciate all of your time and effort (I respected you for all that, and even more now for this post!). 

All the best to you,

kev 

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6 minutes ago, Ahskance said:

The Fighting Game genre is filled with "Git Gud" taunting and such.  While it works for some, it's really obnoxious for many.  The biggest difference is that in World of Warships you are dependent on teammates as opposed to just experiencing a solo play adventure.

WoWs is a MOBA, and all MOBAs suffer from a toxic environment.  It's a sad truth, but it doesn't mean folks should be encouraging people to be jerks to each other.

-----

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You are right in this; anyone that has even touched LoL knows what true toxicity is about. However there's a thin line between being overly passionate for the game and toxic. In my opinion quite a few of the "toxic" cases are people too much into the game that lash out of disappointment. 

We are mostly adult people here, so dunno which is which.

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19 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

No one owes anyone else any kind of base level of competence at the game.  You don't know who's sitting at the keyboard.  Maybe the person is old.  Maybe they're very young.  Maybe they're disabled.  Maybe this the first game they've ever played.  Maybe their goal is just to shoot at enemy ships and marvel at the pretty colours.  They don't have to play to win. 

Do the world a favour:  don't be a butt. 

That's very idealistic, but when you look at discussions here in the forums and reddit on barred from playing this and that until they reach a certain rate of competency(recent one I remember is the thread talking about how players shoudn't play CVs until they have played the other 3 ship types to T10), it's really not doing favors.

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48 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

How many of the people flaming actually have the stats versus say, someone just going off while being wrong about the entire situation?

This so much. 

55 minutes ago, SeaGladius said:

In other words, I’d rather play with polite people who are just OK at the game than a bunch of rude unicums.

That is such flimsy strawman the absolute vast majority of the  rudest and loudest players  are bad players below 50% WR. 

 

In my experience the better a player is the less likely he is going to sit there actually flaming others because the better they are the less they expect great play from others.
Yeah since I play with mostly 54%- 58% players in divs I see that crowd making comments and or pinging someone sitting in a low efficiency situation. That is NOT flaming / being rude.     Also Yep i hear most everyone in this crowd range complain about team mates on discord voice while its happening.   However most of them will not say anything in the match. I am actually far more likely then anyone else in my clan to call out a lemming train for being dumb. People all rushing to one side of the map drives me absolutely bonkers. 

 

Going outside my immediate clan and what I have experienced from other players  in all my 7000 games there has been maybe 1 unicum who ever flamed me or someone that I saw.  Then maybe 8-10 players total with decent stats  but still no where near unicums. 

However there were dozens and dozens and dozens, of terrible players who despite being bad a the game love to flame the rest of their team for being terrible.  

Edited by eviltane
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54 minutes ago, NobleWhiteManlet said:

 

Sure, nobody likes getting flamed in chat, but if you made a mistake, and the person calling you out has the skills/knowledge to back it up, maybe you are in the wrong?

Maybe I am. And if the person doesn't come on like a d-bag, I'm likely to listen. Otherwise, they're just performing for the crowd, because I sure stopped paying attention.

In fact, depending on how they presented themselves, I might just suicide or go run to the corner to spite them, because if someone wants to have a d-bag competition in the middle of a WoWS match, I'll happily oblige, and I don't want to lose.

Quote

I get the point of the game is "fun", but since rewards and XP are win determined, every match outside of CO-OP is by default, competitive. And for competitive players, losing because teammates made bone-headed mistakes isn't fun.

For competitive players, playing pick-up sports with a bunch of crayon eaters isn't fun either, but that doesn't seem to faze them. Why should losing? Do they not expect to lose a lot of games under such conditions? 

I think a lot of the problem of competitive types, is that they're trying to shove their square peg in a round hole, and get upset because it pinches their corners.

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 Anyone who like me grew up in COD lobbies knows that the worst in this game is mild compared to some other communities.

Anyone that lived in Beslan in 2004 knows that Columbine and Sandy Hook were barely worth mentioning, but that doesn't mean school shootings are ok...

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The only way ideals become reality is though good people putting them into practice.

 

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Thanks for stating the thread OP. 

I am 58, and started watching my son play the game several years ago (like most boomer parents with kids who spend a lot of time gaming, you do whatever you can to spend some time with them! LOL).

So he convinces me to play, and although I have played a lot of games in my day this was the first one with active human players with team play deciding outcomes. I can't be the only person playing that has really struggled with this. I really want to improve, and have tried to memorize armor layouts, ship weaknesses - watch videos and improve my tactics. 

But I still make mistakes (sometimes huge ones - like broadsiding a BB, or sailing into a torp wall I should have seen coming). And I try to support even though I frequently die early, and monitor Karma as a measure of improvement. 

All of this makes the game stressful - and sometimes I have to remind myself all of us are trying to enjoy ourselves, right? 

I believe 99% of the people who make a colossal mistake in game (including me) know it, are already ashamed of it and probably feel crappy about it. All the salt does is drive people away. I think that's probably bad for all of us who enjoy this game IMHO.

kev

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2 minutes ago, CaptainKevlar said:

Thanks for stating the thread OP. 

I am 58, and started watching my son play the game several years ago (like most boomer parents with kids who spend a lot of time gaming, you do whatever you can to spend some time with them! LOL).

So he convinces me to play, and although I have played a lot of games in my day this was the first one with active human players with team play deciding outcomes. I can't be the only person playing that has really struggled with this. I really want to improve, and have tried to memorize armor layouts, ship weaknesses - watch videos and improve my tactics. 

But I still make mistakes (sometimes huge ones - like broadsiding a BB, or sailing into a torp wall I should have seen coming). And I try to support even though I frequently die early, and monitor Karma as a measure of improvement. 

All of this makes the game stressful - and sometimes I have to remind myself all of us are trying to enjoy ourselves, right? 

I believe 99% of the people who make a colossal mistake in game (including me) know it, are already ashamed of it and probably feel crappy about it. All the salt does is drive people away. I think that's probably bad for all of us who enjoy this game IMHO.

kev

Welcome to the game, and good on you for trying to improve!

Me personally, if I know someone is in your situation, I won't get irritated at mistakes since you are new and this is a complex game. 

I will get slightly irked if I see a player with tens of thousands of games make mistakes like shooting HE at a close range, broadside, low HP Seattle while they are driving an Alaska at full health and then keep doing it after getting politely advised to hit the "2" key.

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31 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

That's very idealistic, but when you look at discussions here in the forums and reddit on barred from playing this and that until they reach a certain rate of competency(recent one I remember is the thread talking about how players shoudn't play CVs until they have played the other 3 ship types to T10), it's really not doing favors.

Base civility isn't idealistic.  A little empathy goes a long way. 

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9 minutes ago, CaptainKevlar said:

Thanks for stating the thread OP. 

I am 58, and started watching my son play the game several years ago (like most boomer parents with kids who spend a lot of time gaming, you do whatever you can to spend some time with them! LOL).

So he convinces me to play, and although I have played a lot of games in my day this was the first one with active human players with team play deciding outcomes. I can't be the only person playing that has really struggled with this. I really want to improve, and have tried to memorize armor layouts, ship weaknesses - watch videos and improve my tactics. 

But I still make mistakes (sometimes huge ones - like broadsiding a BB, or sailing into a torp wall I should have seen coming). And I try to support even though I frequently die early, and monitor Karma as a measure of improvement. 

All of this makes the game stressful - and sometimes I have to remind myself all of us are trying to enjoy ourselves, right? 

I believe 99% of the people who make a colossal mistake in game (including me) know it, are already ashamed of it and probably feel crappy about it. All the salt does is drive people away. I think that's probably bad for all of us who enjoy this game IMHO.

kev

Welcome to the forums Kev.

Don't use Karma as a measure of improvement, use something like wowsnumbers across an extended period of time and focus on seeing how your winrate, survival rate, average tier, average damage changes.  Karma is abused at every single corner. 

Personally I don't mind making a colossal mistake. You can be the best player and die in the first minutes of the battles by the dumbest of stuff. Mistakes happen and that's to be expected.

The issue are the players that don't feel crappy about their colossal mistakes time and time again, and instead go on to blame mechanics, hacks, basically everything but themselves.

 

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Any interaction with other players in a online multiplayer game has a strong chance of leading into toxicity. People feel like they are invincible behind a screen instead of in person, just look at the toxicity levels of Call on Duty and League of Legends, Cod Multiplayer lobby comes to mind when looking at the bad side of their player community...

Honestly WoWs feels far more restrained from toxicity than compared to Cod, LoL and even World of Tanks, probably due to a more mature audience demographic that WG is aiming ships at, people around here are mostly at least young adults to some old folks, war veterans heck many of the CCs/wows youtubers work as teachers.(Lord Zath, Ichase, Lord Sea Mountbatten just to name a few)

Also, this is mention by Jingles in his older Mingles with Jingles Episode, Negatively, its apparently a human instinct part of our sense of survival, so do you reckon all this toxic online behaviour is based on human instinct?

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8 minutes ago, NobleWhiteManlet said:

Welcome to the game, and good on you for trying to improve!

Me personally, if I know someone is in your situation, I won't get irritated at mistakes since you are new and this is a complex game. 

I will get slightly irked if I see a player with tens of thousands of games make mistakes like shooting HE at a close range, broadside, low HP Seattle while they are driving an Alaska at full health and then keep doing it after getting politely advised to hit the "2" key.

Thanks for the reply - its been a year (not sure if I am officially a novice still?) LOL

I am starting to realize the major infractions for sure (like some you mentioned), but in all honesty will probably never be someone who has a grip on all of the information I am starting to realize really matters (who you can overmatch, who can overmatch you etc.). It would take a much younger brain I'm afraid!

So given all that, should a player like me never venture beyond say tier 7? Or on the other side of that coin, is the only way to learn tier 10 by playing tier 10 (and making all the mistakes that come with it)? 

And please pardon the question, but how (in game) would you know if a player deserves a little slack and who doesn't?

Thanks again, I appreciate the conversation,

kev

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8 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Welcome to the forums Kev.

Don't use Karma as a measure of improvement, use something like wowsnumbers across an extended period of time and focus on seeing how your winrate, survival rate, average tier, average damage changes.  Karma is abused at every single corner. 

Personally I don't mind making a colossal mistake. You can be the best player and die in the first minutes of the battles by the dumbest of stuff. Mistakes happen and that's to be expected.

The issue are the players that don't feel crappy about their colossal mistakes time and time again, and instead go on to blame mechanics, hacks, basically everything but themselves.

 

Thanks, appreciate very much the advice!

I will do that (using the metrics you mentioned), Karma has been tough. I have 4000+ matches, and can't seem to get over 20 points no matter what I do or how hard I try in game. 

No blaming anything but myself regarding the mistakes LOL........at least I am starting to know how / why they are happening!

All the best,

kev

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I'm hard-pressed to find a game that has a larger age diversity than WoWs. You're gonna have a lot of trolling in this game from the younger group cause that's what they grew up on. 

Toxicity is bad. My problem is when bad players tell me what to do, I bring up what statistic is better for them vs me, and they call that stat shaming. Naw, that's [edited] facts.

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3 minutes ago, CaptainKevlar said:

Thanks for the reply - its been a year (not sure if I am officially a novice still?) LOL

I am starting to realize the major infractions for sure (like some you mentioned), but in all honesty will probably never be someone who has a grip on all of the information I am starting to realize really matters (who you can overmatch, who can overmatch you etc.). It would take a much younger brain I'm afraid!

So given all that, should a player like me never venture beyond say tier 7? Or on the other side of that coin, is the only way to learn tier 10 by playing tier 10 (and making all the mistakes that come with it)? 

And please pardon the question, but how (in game) would you know if a player deserves a little slack and who doesn't?

Thanks again, I appreciate the conversation,

kev

To answer your first question, of course not. Feel free to play any ship you want! Learning them is a mixture of experience and watching YouTube guides.

In game, go with everyone deserves slack and respect until they prove otherwise. If you want to know stats, wowsnumbers, the wows online homplepage player lookup tool, and looking up players in their naval bases are good ways to check stays and how many games they've played.

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7 minutes ago, CaptainKevlar said:

Thanks, appreciate very much the advice!

I will do that (using the metrics you mentioned), Karma has been tough. I have 4000+ matches, and can't seem to get over 20 points no matter what I do or how hard I try in game. 

No blaming anything but myself regarding the mistakes LOL........at least I am starting to know how / why they are happening!

All the best,

kev

You can get reported for reasons as petty as playing the "wrong class". 

If you can realize what you did wrong, then that means you realize which mechanics and positioning led to your sinking. This is quite an improvement and one of the more important steps.

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