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How did we reach this point as a nation?

https://komonews.com/news/local/body-of-4-year-old-boy-recovered-from-skykomish-river-near-sultan

There were more extensive stories on the news last night - multiple people watched this poor boy, still alive and screaming, float past them down the river. Nobody stripped off a shirt and leapt in.

Look, I get it: you're taking your life in your hands with an act like that - the water is ice cold, and chances are as good as not that even if you're a strong swimmer, you'll drown, too. But aren't some things worth dying for? Aren't there instances where, confronted with split-second decision to act or not, that no matter what happens (including you failing and dying) you still come up a winner? We're all going to die - nobody is going to make it out of this alive. Wouldn't you rather go out a champ than a sissy? And wouldn't it be even better if you actually succeeded and saved a life?

I dunno. I feel like, a century ago, people would have leapt into that river to save that boy without even giving it a second thought. We had a concept of personal honor that's just gone now. People are so much more inclined to whip out a cell phone and call 9-1-1 (or just turn on their camera and film). And then the moment is lost, and the victim doesn't make it. 

We've become a country of cowards. Maybe not universally - but absolutely the vast majority.

Edited by Battleship_DukeofYork
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Are you aware of the bystander effect? To me this sounds more like a case of that than general cowardice. As a personal example a few years back I was going with a roommate to get some furniture in a nearby town, so we used the train. We happened upon a child that had an epileptic seizure. In a crowded train station. With only one person trying to help him, that I still don't know whether he was a bystander or relative. After being reluctant for a while I went and helped keep the child turned to the side, until paramedics came.

My roommate sat few meters back trying to ignore it. It's human, it's universal, it's [edited] and it happens.

Edited by warheart1992
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23 minutes ago, Battleship_DukeofYork said:

How did we reach this point as a nation?

https://komonews.com/news/local/body-of-4-year-old-boy-recovered-from-skykomish-river-near-sultan

There were more extensive stories on the news last night - multiple people watched this poor boy, still alive and screaming, float past them down the river. Nobody stripped off a shirt and leapt in.

Look, I get it: you're taking your life in your hands with an act like that - the water is ice cold, and chances are as good as not that even if you're a strong swimmer, you'll drown, too. But aren't some things worth dying for? Aren't there instances where, confronted with split-second decision to act or not, that no matter what happens (including you failing and dying) you still come up a winner? We're all going to die - nobody is going to make it out of this alive. Wouldn't you rather go out a champ than a sissy? And wouldn't it be even better if you actually succeeded and saved a life?

I dunno. I feel like, a century ago, people would have leapt into that river to save that boy without even giving it a second thought. We had a concept of personal honor that's just gone now. People are so much more inclined to whip out a cell phone and call 9-1-1 (or just turn on their camera and film). And then the moment is lost, and the victim doesn't make it. 

We've become a country of cowards. Maybe not universally - but absolutely the vast majority.

I have to disagree on three fronts...

  1. Bystanders called on the state to help which back in the 80s, it did not have the capability... Therefor people had to "do it" or pitch in to help because the safety net was not there...
  2. Personal responsibility of the parents...
  3. legal action

We're programmed and we pay the state in taxes, to have qualified personal to take the necessary actions/ infer the risks needed to save us..

At the same time, that safety net shouldn't be abused by our irresponsibility as adults/parents.

This creates a nation or a society with cognitive dissonance.


Rest in peace little one...

Less cowardice, more apathy.

Edited by Navalpride33
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Less cowardice, more apathy.

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Blame the fact that everyone is willing to sue everyone over anything.

There have been a myriad of lawsuits against people who tried helping others, only to be sued by the very people they tried to help.

It makes people not want to bother.

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https://commonsensenation.net/good-samaritan-saves-a-drowning-woman-and-she-sues-him/

Here’s an interesting primer for anyone curious why people would hesitate to jump in and help.  For the record, I’d like to think I’d jump in to save someone drowning, or atleast do something else to help.  I certainly believe that’s what I’d do. However, people (especially in certain states) unfortunately have good reason to worry not only about putting themselves in danger but of getting punished for helping.

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A few weeks ago at a local beach near where I live, three people drowned after getting caught in an undertow. A father, his 3 year old son, and the good samaritan who swam out to help. Do not act like it doesn't happen, fight or flight is a mental instinct, not every one has it and sometimes the best thing you can do is dial 911. You were not there so do not act like you know the full story, and if you were I'm sure you would of been just as dumbfounded.

Honestly, the worst thing you can do is whip out your camera phone and start filming a person drowning, which has unfortunately happened in the grand state of Florida.

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2 hours ago, SteffisCute said:

Blame the fact that everyone is willing to sue everyone over anything.

There have been a myriad of lawsuits against people who tried helping others, only to be sued by the very people they tried to help.

It makes people not want to bother.

Very true. Even a law was put into place that makes it so that people trying to preform CPR on someone cannot get sued by that person

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3 hours ago, Battleship_DukeofYork said:

We've become a country of cowards. Maybe not universally - but absolutely the vast majority.

I was an Army medic, EMT, and paramedic. I have had both lifesaving and scuba search and rescue training. However, there are still times when I would not just leap into a river to try to save someone because I know that all that would happen would be two bodies floating downstream instead of one.

In 1928, a presidential candidate, who was a good swimmer, leapt into the Dechutes River to save a child and drowned. Though he reached the boy, he suffered hypothermia and tired before he could get him back to the shore, both were swept away.

The rivers of the Pacific Northwest are cold with strong currents -- I know because that's where I did my scuba search and rescue training. I also taught stream survey, boating safety, and fisheries technology there. What looks like a peaceful, clear, shallow river can be deceptive -- even a two-foot deep mountain stream will knock you off your feet and sweep you away if you are not careful. It usually takes someone with strength and stamina, proper training, and proper equipment to successfully rescue someone from a cold, fast-flowing river.

Edited by Snargfargle

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4 hours ago, Battleship_DukeofYork said:

We've become a country of cowards. Maybe not universally - but absolutely the vast majority.

I have to disagree, based on the fundamental, biological tendency of humans to avoid injury and maximize chances of survival-the Self-Preservation Instinct.

Edited by Charon2018
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46 minutes ago, Charon2018 said:

I have to disagree, based on the fundamental, biological tendency of humans to avoid injury and maximize chances of survival-the Self-Preservation Instinct.

As a social species, we humans have the innate desire to help out others whenever we can. In the early months of WWI, it took a lot of indoctrination and threats by their own officers to get the combatants to stop being nice to each other. It takes much less time to go back to seeing one's enemy as human and caring about them than it does to make an enemy of them in the first place. Just look at how fast the Americans went from fighting the Japanese and Germans to helping them to rebuild their countries and economies.

Joseph Campbell, the eminent 20th Century mythologist, called the act of putting oneself in danger for a total stranger a "single-pointed meditation." In these situations you don't really think of the consequences, you just act. I've been in many situations where a "reasonable" man may have come to the conclusion that it would have be prudent to act one his own interests, had he the time to think and ponder about it. However, I just rushed in and did what needed done. I could say that it was just "my job" to do so and that I was well-trained and well-equipped but I've noticed in my long life that those who have the tendency to do the things that need done an emergency situations tend to gravitate to those jobs that allow them to do so.

There are thousands of people who have died trying to help others. I don't blame someone who isn't in the best of shape, not a very good swimmer, and has had no training for not rushing into a river to try to save a child. Had someone done so, and had they been successful, then the news would have touted them as a "hero," and rightfully so. However, the success of the rescue attempt may have been sheer luck. The news also reports a lot of unsuccessful rescue attempts that resulted in the death of the would-be rescuer too.

With all the training and experience I have, I still would be woefully under-qualified to perform a cold-water/swift-water rescue. I took my boating safety instructor's course with swift-water rescue team and later watched them train. Scuba search and rescue training is hard but swift-water rescue training is much more strenuous. It takes good physical fitness and swimming ability plus a ton of training and the proper equipment to be successful at swift-water rescues while not putting your own life in danger.

 

Edited by Snargfargle

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53 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

As a social species, we humans have the innate desire to help out others whenever we can.

I don't disagree with you in this context, but I do disagree with the OP's assertion that the vast majority of the nation is cowardly. 

I have similar life experience to you, and have acted much the same in "situations"- DOTS, Risk vs. Reward/Triage, etc.- every one unique. :)

"Personal honor" is just that-personal.  And it still exists.

 

Edited by Charon2018
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1 hour ago, Charon2018 said:

I don't disagree with you in this context, but I do disagree with the OP's assertion that the vast majority of the nation is cowardly. 

I have similar life experience to you, and have acted much the same in "situations"- DOTS, Risk vs. Reward/Triage, etc.- every one unique. :)

"Personal honor" is just that-personal.  And it still exists.

 

We are in agreement then. Although there will always be a share of sniveling no-accounts, the majority of people are probably actually too brave for their own good, This is just natural for a social species though. Like the "man" said, "apes together, strong" -- most of is will do what we can. If you watch that firefighter swift-water rescue training video though the trainer makes a point of asking the public to track where the victim is and to call the fire department, He then notes that the first priority for the rescuer is performing the rescue in a way that will keep him as safe as possible. Unless a victim was close to shore, calling for help is about all I could do these days, as I'm getting old and am in nowhere near the shape I once was.

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There are good and bad in every country, here in Alberta there was a child seen in Highwood River alone on a raft calling for help after he fell off of it , and several people including two older RMCP officers that did their best to save him, three farmers tied ropes together and threw it out to him while two guys from my school at the time jumped in and swam out to him

 

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Here is report from Revelstoke, B.C. https://www.clearwatertimes.com/news/lawsuit-raises-questions-about-heli-ski-buddy-system/

Total strangers are made to be a ski buddy. This man, runs into a tree well and gets killed. His wife sues the ski buddy. The lawsuit was dismissed by the BC supreme court in 2014 and the wife ordered to pay court costs.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/ski-buddy-not-liable-for-heli-ski-death-court-rules-1.2514422

Edited by Timo_Greenwold

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