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LittleWhiteMouse

Mouse Chills with Two Tribal Proposals

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31 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Commonwealth Tech Tree

It's a must that the Tribal-class appear in whatever form of destroyer tech-tree that ends up for the British Commonwealth and picking off Huron and Athabaskan as a premium isn't the only way to get these ships, and this proposed implementation, into the game.  A tier VIII or Tier IX British Commonwealth Tribal-class is all but a shoo-in.  Having the stock Tribal with six120mm guns with an option to upgrade to eight 102mm guns would certainly be interesting (and probably popular if done right) and it would certainly reflect Canada's own historical ship building with the class.  History and fun gameplay all wrapped into one seems an easy decision to me but I'm not in charge of such things. 

There are a couple of problems, however.

The high-tier options for the Commonwealth line are rather limited with the Tribals competing for space with the Battle and Daring-class ships.  However, we still don't know (a) If the British Commonwealth will ever get a tech tree (b) Will it split down Canadian / Australian / Indian lines with the rest of the Commonwealth 'lumped in' together similar to how the Dutch and Pan European lines played out and (c) What gimmicks will appear for the Commonwealth ships.

I have my own pet theory that Wargaming should go down the route of making a DDE line with the ships sacrificing main-battery and torpedo armament slots for improved anti-submarine and anti-aircraft warfare.  These modifications were highly commonplace among the Commonwealth nations and we introduce ships very much akin to HMS Druid's gun layout.  Imagine a Tribal with only a pair of bow mounted 102mm guns.  A Daring or Jutland-class with the same but with their 113mm guns and only a single torpedo launcher.  This pattern carries over into the lower tiers as well with ships from the Wickes, A and C-class all having anti-surface ship weapons stripped out to improve anti-aircraft and anti-submarine warfare, representing not just Cold-War era ships but also vessels that fought during the earliest stages of World War Two.  For the DDE line to work, though, submarines need to be fully introduced and working well before a whole line can show up to make their lives miserable.

While it might be cool if Wargaming gave us the option of choosing which hull form to use, in practice we saw that players are not willing to sacrifice anti-shipping ability to buff themselves to a more situational role.  The "C-Hulls" of many American destroyers were largely superfluous.  So the Commonwealth techtree would need to be purpose-built and balanced around this DDE role rather than it being a secondary option if Wargaming chooses to go this route.  This doesn't leave room for a six-gun Huron or an eight-gun Athabaskan.

With all of this up in the air, I think pursuing either Huron or Athabaskan as a premium in the immediate future makes the most sense.  They can focus on an anti-surface role and be good at it before the question of how Commonwealth ships should engage submarines becomes an important subject of debate.

This is a line more practical and historical than Russian CVs.

We've seen interesting examples with Druid and Tiger '59.

Commonwealth could be lesser armed utility ships with improved ASW capabilities.

Edited by Sumseaman
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I want to have a crawling smoke Akizuki:fish_cute_2:

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I like both ideas. The role of a DD depends on its armament. And you make a good point about HMCS Athabaskan. It has to have a role to be a worthy adversary. I like the gunfighter idea. 

Huron, while a clone, is like you said. It is easy to modify for another tier and move up Haida. 

This idea has merit. I joke about Canadian ships a lot, but let's face it, they did fight in WW2.

It makes sense just to have them and the idea of making them specialty ships in their area of expertise.

It would make it a great selling point and should satisfy WG's sales department. 

I should point out that clear communication about these two ships and their development would be required.

I feel this is important for the historical details. And also the technical ones as well. 

I hope these submissions do come true. 

But I do want a MacGyver Captain. LOL:cap_cool:

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Commonwealth Tech Tree

I like this idea but we are talking about WG right?

 

There next line will probably be a Tech tree of OP  Cold War Russian Armed Spy Trawlers.

 

#YUKONGATE  

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You should be on vacation Mouse, get away from this game for a few weeks

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3 minutes ago, iChase said:

You should be on vacation Mouse, get away from this game for a few weeks

I should be but my brain defaulted to what calms me down ... which, after five years of doing almost nothing but, is ship-work. =_=

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4 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I should be but my brain defaulted to what calms me down ... which, after five years of doing almost nothing but, is ship-work. =_=

you really should come study naval architecture and design real boats lol, at least you'll be paid well for that work

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At this rate we all need a break from WoWs.  Good thing steam summer sale is going on

Edited by Your_SAT_Score

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LWM, I had mentioned a very similar thought about a new line in your Yukon review thread a couple of days back:

"Canada was a very significant "small ship" navy that was focused on ASW and DD engagements in WW2 and the Cold War. Personally, since subs are coming I'd love to see a Canadian DD line that is strong against subs and air attacks. That would be historically more accurate, and we already have (or had) Haida to start us off."

So you have a built-in supporter right here. Your very significant thoughts on the matter are way beyond my humble daydreaming. In thinking of a new line, I wonder if Squid Mortars could be a new ASW gimmick for a CDN DD line. This could replace a Y turret position. Historically accurate too for at least some ships. Haida had them (still does, actually). Build in some "Halland style" AA and you've got a new line with a new appeal. 

I spent a short time on the last iteration of HMCS Athabaskan back in the 70's. Her predecessors have quite a history. I got very interested in finding a pic of Athabee II R79 after you said you could not find one - three hours later, I can't either. This is the only image I could find, a painting . No photos, although I saw a couple identified as R79 with no pennant number on the hull at all. 

503afc973638e74eca1af8c35c045129--painting-wallpaper-painting-art.jpg

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8 minutes ago, CoffeeandChaos said:

I spent a short time on the last iteration of HMCS Athabaskan back in the 70's. Her predecessors have quite a history. I got very interested in finding a pic of Athabee II R79 after you said you could not find one - three hours later, I can't either. This is the only image I could find, a painting . No photos, although I saw a couple identified as R79 with no pennant number on the hull at all.  

I should talk to Drachinifel and see if he can recommend some good books on the Tribal-class destroyers.  I am willing to bet that the Canadian-built Athabaskan was never in service with her eight 102mm guns and that she was refit right out of the dockyards to her DDE 219 hull build. 

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2 hours ago, Your_SAT_Score said:

At this rate we all need a break from WoWs.  Good thing steam summer sale is going on

Amen, though provided you search a little you can find sales all year round from certified key sellers.

As for DDEs being introduced, I think it will happen eventually, but for that you need a steady population of subs. Another reason why subs could thrive in standalone game modes.

Regarding the proposals I would be all in for Athabaskan with the artificially HE pen option. Something to add regarding AP vis a vis lolibotes, is that by itself the caliber is a major boon. In the pre HE pen buff to Akizuki, dynamic switch between AP and HE would always give you an edge. 

Last, if we ever get a ship like this, maybe a Blyskawica '41 that carries similar guns pretty please? 

Edited by warheart1992

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36 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I should talk to Drachinifel and see if he can recommend some good books on the Tribal-class destroyers.  I am willing to bet that the Canadian-built Athabaskan was never in service with her eight 102mm guns and that she was refit right out of the dockyards to her DDE 219 hull build. 

Actually, Drach's buddy Alex Clarke has a new book on RN DD's coming out, and he's quite the Tribal aficianado. Right nice chap, too.

On a more somber note, after yours and Chobi's experience with Yukon, how can you even begin to think the bollocksbrains at Lesta might actually take your suggestions to heart?

Thank you for all that you do. God knows Wargaming doesn't appreciate it, but we the serfs do.

Cheers!

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8 minutes ago, Hookie_Bell said:

Actually, Drach's buddy Alex Clarke has a new book on RN DD's coming out, and he's quite the Tribal aficianado. Right nice chap, too.

On a more somber note, after yours and Chobi's experience with Yukon, how can you even begin to think the bollocksbrains at Lesta might actually take your suggestions to heart?

Thank you for all that you do. God knows Wargaming doesn't appreciate it, but we the serfs do.

Cheers!

I don't think they would.  We saw what happened when Chobittsu and I were actually solicited not only for our opinions but asking us on the regular for work and on a specific timeline.  Unsolicited suggestions?  No hope in Hell of being noticed, never mind acted upon.

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51 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I should talk to Drachinifel and see if he can recommend some good books on the Tribal-class destroyers.  I am willing to bet that the Canadian-built Athabaskan was never in service with her eight 102mm guns and that she was refit right out of the dockyards to her DDE 219 hull build. 

 

10 minutes ago, Hookie_Bell said:

Actually, Drach's buddy Alex Clarke has a new book on RN DD's coming out, and he's quite the Tribal aficianado. Right nice chap, too.

On a more somber note, after yours and Chobi's experience with Yukon, how can you even begin to think the bollocksbrains at Lesta might actually take your suggestions to heart?

Thank you for all that you do. God knows Wargaming doesn't appreciate it, but we the serfs do.

Cheers!

I can personally recommend Dr. Alexander Clarke. He's a real go-to guy on the Royal Navy with a background in engineering as well as history. I frequently participate in his BruShips  live streams.

If you want to get a chuckle out of him, the magic words are "Blackburn Blackburn". :Smile_teethhappy:

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I should talk to Drachinifel and see if he can recommend some good books on the Tribal-class destroyers.  I am willing to bet that the Canadian-built Athabaskan was never in service with her eight 102mm guns and that she was refit right out of the dockyards to her DDE 219 hull build. 

Dunno how helpful it is, but I found this link.

http://www.forposterityssake.ca/Navy/HMCS_ATHABASKAN_R79_219.htm#Photos

To be honest I believe the only pics of Athabaskan you will find as R79 are the ones near the launch of the ship.

 

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4 hours ago, Beleaf_ said:

I want to have a crawling smoke Akizuki:fish_cute_2:

Harekaze III it is. 

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1 hour ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I don't think they would.  We saw what happened when Chobittsu and I were actually solicited not only for our opinions but asking us on the regular for work and on a specific timeline.  Unsolicited suggestions?  No hope in Hell of being noticed, never mind acted upon.

It seems the Yukon isn't selling so well, as only 142 games have been played NA Server according to WOWS Numbers.
I played quite a few matches this weekend, and didn't see a single one.
Maybe the next boat will be actually decent, and not just regurgitated junk. 


Lets hope WG takes notice to the poor sales and really thinks long and hard about the next time they ASK for help, then slap you in the face for it!

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6 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

If we applied this to Haida as-is, her surface detection could get as low as 5.1km.  This is better than anything else within her matchmaking

Isn't it better than just about anything else in-game? 

If you want to differentiate an eight-gun Canadian Tribal from the Cossack, give her guns DP AA capability and put Vampire 2's torpedoes in her launcher. The only question is whether that makes her too strong for Tier 8. If so, bump her up to T9 and put her out for coal, or go back to the six-gun arrangement with the boosted AA and the longer-range torpedoes as balancing factors?

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3 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

I don't think they would.  We saw what happened when Chobittsu and I were actually solicited not only for our opinions but asking us on the regular for work and on a specific timeline.  Unsolicited suggestions?  No hope in Hell of being noticed, never mind acted upon.

If there is no hope in hell of this being noticed or acted upon... then whats the point? Why put in this much thought and effort on something that will only be a what-if?

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8 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

the 1949 "incident"

In case LWM's reference escaped you, the "incident" referred to were a series of, well, let's not call them mutinies, let's call them....collective mass disobedience. 

https://www.canada.ca/en/navy/services/history/dissension-in-the-ranks.html

Edited by Dunnik
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I can pronounce Huron so it gets my vote. 

The look you give someone when they can't pronounce a single word on the  menu correctly - Side-Eyes Chloe | Make a Meme

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I daresay, after the collosal screwup with Yukon, WG owes you this 

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3 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Isn't it better than just about anything else in-game? 

If you want to differentiate an eight-gun Canadian Tribal from the Cossack, give her guns DP AA capability and put Vampire 2's torpedoes in her launcher. The only question is whether that makes her too strong for Tier 8. If so, bump her up to T9 and put her out for coal, or go back to the six-gun arrangement with the boosted AA and the longer-range torpedoes as balancing factors?

Within her matchmaking, yes.  In the game?  No.  Go down to the low tiers and with a full concealment build, you can get some of those ships down beneath a sub-5km surface detection range. 

2 hours ago, Commissar_Carl said:

If there is no hope in hell of this being noticed or acted upon... then whats the point? Why put in this much thought and effort on something that will only be a what-if?

Two reasons:

  1. We're fast coming up on my six-year anniversary of publishing reviews on the forums.  I have always enjoyed talking about the game, sharing my thoughts and feelings on it along with my hopes and aspirations.  This is the kind of stuff that gets me excited about what may be coming next.  I might not have any influence on what that future outcome might be, but that's not what's important.  Sharing predictions and imagining what would be cool with friends and fellow enthusiasts is.  Wargaming has done their level best to take my enjoyment of their game from me this past month and I'm trying to salvage what I can from that awful experience.  Maybe through posts like this I can be successful.
  2. Maybe I'll end up being right and this will be the route Wargaming goes down.  It's nice to have a record of having predicted such.
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Well in that case, I wonder if the right choice for a premium is Haida... again.

The idea of a whole dd line that is light on gunpowder and torpedoes but heavy on aa and asw equipment is interesting... but are there enough ships from tier 4 to 10 that can really support this playstyle? If not, then perhaps the best replacement for Haida as a tier 7 Canadian destroyer with unique playstyle is Haida as DDE-215. I got to do some research now on how big a dde type line the commonwealth could support.

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