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Karstodes

Japanese cruiser line

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The IJN cruiser line is one of the older line of the game, and arguably one that got the most power creep.  Long gone are the day where they were the flame thrower of the game, and nowadays they tend to be the less competitive line of cruiser.

Why?

First offense:

They do have a good alpha strike and good fire chance, with high accuracy. But that where the good part ends. Their low fire rate make their HE DPM fall down to be at best average, while having no special penetration value. That means that in term of actual DPM, ships like Hindenburg and Goliath can get better DPM and better utility. And their AP is pretty much lackluster, lacking in general in penetration, in AP damage and having no special bouncing angle. They do have heavy torpedo load, but their poor angle makes them useful only against advancing enemy where you can increase your stealth torpedo rang.

 

Second: utility:

Japanese lacks any form of gimmick: they don't have radar, have poor AA, have standard hydro, no special armor... They can only bring in their DPM, which as stated above is not that great.

 

Third: survivability

Zao have CL level of HP, and are even getting close to some DD (looking at you Elbing). They have some of the poorest armor (no 27mm bow, easy to get citadel, massive superstructure, unarmored turrets) and no special heal. So yeah, you can't tank with them

 

They do have good concealment, but even that is not as useful as before with the high numbers of 12km radar and the higher number of CV.

 

 

So how to make them relevant again?

You could boost their guns, but it would only make them more competitive in an area already quite full (open water HE spammer). I did bring the idea of giving them the type 3 shell (low penetration shell that would mainly have a good overall fire chance to deal with heavily armored target) but an other option do exist. There is one role not fill by any other cruiser: the torpedo cruiser.

Japanese cruiser already have an heavy torpedo load, but it is balanced by the small window of stealth launch and their poor firing angle. So how to make them into a proper torpedo cruiser line? Giving them the 20km torps is not a good option: friendly fire is too easy for it and it would probably be hard to balance. But there is an other long range torpedo out there that would be easier to balance: the Asashio's. Giving Asashio torps to the Mogami onward as an option would make them into an anti-BB cruiser line and make it more useful to invest in the torpedoes skills for them. They wouldn't be overpowered: such torps are useless against DD and Cruisers, and in competitive they would still not be that great since there is not a lot of BB. But in random or ranked it would become a line interesting in my opinion.

 

 

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Personally the line isn't that bad. Furutaka is the strongest tier V tech tree CA, Aoba is in a bit of a bad spot but still acceptable. Myoko is one of the better tier VII cruisers and 155 Mogami shreds stuff. What Mogami as many old tier VIII CAs lacks is firing range.

The issues in my opinion start with Ibuki and Zao. Too little HP, low base range meaning you need to take the range upgrade most of the time, bad firing angles (on Zao), loss of armor relevance since all high tier CAs got at least 30mm midsections (previously only Zao had this). I don't know if and how Asashio torps can balance out some of these shortcomings. Bottom line it's just that WG has added too many lines suited towards the same roles. You can currently play the role of long range HE spammer with Henri IV, and Goliath, Hindenburg to name just the CAs. 

 

Edited by warheart1992
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1 hour ago, Karstodes said:

The IJN cruiser line is one of the older line of the game, and arguably one that got the most power creep.  Long gone are the day where they were the flame thrower of the game, and nowadays they tend to be the less competitive line of cruiser.

Why?

First offense:

They do have a good alpha strike and good fire chance, with high accuracy. But that where the good part ends. Their low fire rate make their HE DPM fall down to be at best average, while having no special penetration value. That means that in term of actual DPM, ships like Hindenburg and Goliath can get better DPM and better utility. And their AP is pretty much lackluster, lacking in general in penetration, in AP damage and having no special bouncing angle. They do have heavy torpedo load, but their poor angle makes them useful only against advancing enemy where you can increase your stealth torpedo rang.

 

Second: utility:

Japanese lacks any form of gimmick: they don't have radar, have poor AA, have standard hydro, no special armor... They can only bring in their DPM, which as stated above is not that great.

 

Third: survivability

Zao have CL level of HP, and are even getting close to some DD (looking at you Elbing). They have some of the poorest armor (no 27mm bow, easy to get citadel, massive superstructure, unarmored turrets) and no special heal. So yeah, you can't tank with them

 

They do have good concealment, but even that is not as useful as before with the high numbers of 12km radar and the higher number of CV.

 

 

So how to make them relevant again?

You could boost their guns, but it would only make them more competitive in an area already quite full (open water HE spammer). I did bring the idea of giving them the type 3 shell (low penetration shell that would mainly have a good overall fire chance to deal with heavily armored target) but an other option do exist. There is one role not fill by any other cruiser: the torpedo cruiser.

Japanese cruiser already have an heavy torpedo load, but it is balanced by the small window of stealth launch and their poor firing angle. So how to make them into a proper torpedo cruiser line? Giving them the 20km torps is not a good option: friendly fire is too easy for it and it would probably be hard to balance. But there is an other long range torpedo out there that would be easier to balance: the Asashio's. Giving Asashio torps to the Mogami onward as an option would make them into an anti-BB cruiser line and make it more useful to invest in the torpedoes skills for them. They wouldn't be overpowered: such torps are useless against DD and Cruisers, and in competitive they would still not be that great since there is not a lot of BB. But in random or ranked it would become a line interesting in my opinion.

 

 

Sorry...i dont have any issues with these CAs...i think ot a good line

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10 minutes ago, dadeoo said:

Sorry...i dont have any issues with these CAs...i think ot a good line

The line is good until tier 7 mainly. Pass tier 7, Mogami can be good but Ibuki and Zao struggle. 

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The IJN line is pretty long in the tooth; but I would still pick them out of several alternatives.  Although, if someone wanted to buff them I wouldn't mind....... :cap_rambo:

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1 hour ago, Warped_1 said:

The IJN line is pretty long in the tooth; but I would still pick them out of several alternatives.  Although, if someone wanted to buff them I wouldn't mind....... :cap_rambo:

This.

I do somewhat okay with the Takaos, and 155 Mogami, but have struggled with the Myokos.

Tanking isn’t only about being hit, it includes passing by torps, and missing, but landing nearby shells.

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5 hours ago, Karstodes said:

The IJN cruiser line is one of the older line of the game, and arguably one that got the most power creep.  Long gone are the day where they were the flame thrower of the game, and nowadays they tend to be the less competitive line of cruiser.

Why?

First offense:

They do have a good alpha strike and good fire chance, with high accuracy. But that where the good part ends. Their low fire rate make their HE DPM fall down to be at best average, while having no special penetration value. That means that in term of actual DPM, ships like Hindenburg and Goliath can get better DPM and better utility. And their AP is pretty much lackluster, lacking in general in penetration, in AP damage and having no special bouncing angle. They do have heavy torpedo load, but their poor angle makes them useful only against advancing enemy where you can increase your stealth torpedo rang.

 

Second: utility:

Japanese lacks any form of gimmick: they don't have radar, have poor AA, have standard hydro, no special armor... They can only bring in their DPM, which as stated above is not that great.

 

Third: survivability

Zao have CL level of HP, and are even getting close to some DD (looking at you Elbing). They have some of the poorest armor (no 27mm bow, easy to get citadel, massive superstructure, unarmored turrets) and no special heal. So yeah, you can't tank with them

 

They do have good concealment, but even that is not as useful as before with the high numbers of 12km radar and the higher number of CV.

 

 

So how to make them relevant again?

You could boost their guns, but it would only make them more competitive in an area already quite full (open water HE spammer). I did bring the idea of giving them the type 3 shell (low penetration shell that would mainly have a good overall fire chance to deal with heavily armored target) but an other option do exist. There is one role not fill by any other cruiser: the torpedo cruiser.

Japanese cruiser already have an heavy torpedo load, but it is balanced by the small window of stealth launch and their poor firing angle. So how to make them into a proper torpedo cruiser line? Giving them the 20km torps is not a good option: friendly fire is too easy for it and it would probably be hard to balance. But there is an other long range torpedo out there that would be easier to balance: the Asashio's. Giving Asashio torps to the Mogami onward as an option would make them into an anti-BB cruiser line and make it more useful to invest in the torpedoes skills for them. They wouldn't be overpowered: such torps are useless against DD and Cruisers, and in competitive they would still not be that great since there is not a lot of BB. But in random or ranked it would become a line interesting in my opinion.

 

 

I love them through tier 8 , I have many Atago,Myoko,Azuma,Yoshino  videos out . In my opinion a lot of their short comings start in tier 9,10 because of heals across the board . Up into tier 8 most cruisers and dds do not have heals but a lot of the ijn rely on fire damage to wear out the red team but they just heal it back in higher tiers. I disagree with adding range.....the ijn line with good concealment is good dd killers with good alpha and concealment...but some dds have heals now so brings down the killing ability of the ijn dds...

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For me, I like the stealth for close range support, the amazing torpedos (I have the two speed upgrades) that are incredible when kiting an advancing flank, guns that hit hard per salvo, nimble rudders and higher speed. I also run the catapult aircraft skill for lots of long range spam on my Ibuki when aircraft are around - keeping close AA overlaps with allies in that case. I think its a good line overall. Personally I like the Japanese and British lights quite a bit. Are they meta, no. The are SERVICEABLE.

Edited by Drifter_X

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what we really need for the line is a cl split and a health buff for ibuki and zao

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It would be nice for WG to blow some new life into one of the OG cruiser line. Zao has been left behind in the competition buffing her health is one idea, reducing shell drag is another, introducing a new consumable can be another like how mbrb got introduced to french cruisers.

Maybe a 1/2 speed smoke generator which perfoms in between of the Commonwealth crawling smoke and the Italian's emergency smoke, or instead of a consumble maybe a passive ability like maybe they can auto detect ships at 2.5km and storm/cyclone visibility range is at 8.5km instead of 2km and 8km respectively 

Just thinking ideas here 

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Honestly, I am surprised WG did not delve deeper into the Fire Mechanic as they have done with others like Hydro, Radar, Shell Stats or Torpedos, among others.

There are different types of Hydros (Range, Duration, etc), Radars (Range, Duration), Shells (Weight, Fire Chance, Velocity, Drag, etc) and Torpedos (Range, Reload, Damage, etc). I am surprised they did not extend this to Fires. Depending on the Nation, the Fires could have a longer duration or deal more damage per tick. I am mentioning Fires since for what I have been told IJN were the queens of Fire Starters (taking by the British now I think?) and HE Alpha, but nothing else.

Also, note regarding Ibuki and Zao HP... some CLs have larger HP Pools than them or very similar, which is very ironic.

The problem is WG sees no value in reassessing a powercrept line because "everyone has the line", there are newer and shinier lines (like the russian cruisers) and, best of all, because their spreadsheets tell them everything is fine.

Edited by Ekkaroe

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On 6/26/2021 at 10:38 AM, lolpip said:

what we really need for the line is a cl split and a health buff for ibuki and zao

Exactly.  The perfect solution

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