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McHale772

BB hitting DD - SOMETHING HAS TO CHANGE

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This has happened way to many times & it is beyond my understanding.  If someone can reasonably explain the following it would be interesting.  

I will use the Italian BB Lepanto.  Using SAP shells.  These shells are 12.5K max damage.  Yet if you hit a DD with these shells the majority of the time you get 1600 with a penetration or very close to it.  Beginning of game I hit a couple of DDs with 8 Pens, Not Over Pens, but Pens.  First hits of the game and for those 8 Pen hits from 12.5K shells I had a WOPPING 10K TOTAL Damage.  How is this possible getting Over Pen damage on Pens?

 

Put the SAP shells aside and pick any BB against a DD.  WoW needs to change how damage is dealt.  A Big A$$ shell Pens a DD and never does much damage.   An over pen should have a chance to cause flooding.  If it over pens at 30% angle it is going through the bottom of the ship.  How does a 380+ mm shell (over pen) put a 380+ mm hole clean through a ship and only do 1200 damage.  I mean that is one big hole that in most cases has to go through the hull below water line.  Either entering or exiting.

Just a Noobs view and total frustration to hit a DD with 3 Pens and get 3K damage with a shell that is "supposed" to be 12.5K Max.  I don't even think the Riddler could figure this one out.

I posted a replay, don't laugh to hard, but you will see near the end I am hitting DD, getting Penetrations & you will see 1250 damage on a Pen.  Try it out, see if you can get high hits with SAP and DDs.  Or even AP but harder because of Over pens.

20210625_035704_PISB109-Lepanto_15_NE_north.wowsreplay

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Battleships can only do up to 10% of the shell's max damage with AP and SAP rounds. So for a 12500 damage round, each round can only do 1250 damage. This is a design feature because in the past, destroyers could actually get 4-shot by battleships because full penetrations would do 1/4 of the DD's HP per shell per hit.

With SAP, if it weren't reduced to 10%, 5 hits would be sufficient to kill almost every destroyer in the game, from any angle and any range.

 

These changes were made in 0.7.11: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/game-updates/update-0711-rule-britannia/#gameplay

 

image.thumb.png.87524092e58b8e4c3f9863e63323de24.png

 

With Italian battleships, the typical recommended strategy is to apply massive quantities of shells to a destroyer in a single salvo to kill them.

 

Edited by Compassghost
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It works that way because WG (and from what I’ve heard many players complaining about BBs deleting DDs way to easily before my time) wanted it that way. It’s not likely to change, especially since they tried having SAP not be capped at 10% for the Italian BB line back in testing and VERY quickly decided to cap it at 10%. In case you’re curious it’s not actually done by class but rather by gun caliber. It’s important to note this is with AP and SAP.  HE shells can still do a lot of damage to DDs (and tend to break a LOT of things on them). I do feel like the game should make this clearer to new players as it’s kind of important to know. 

Edited by Shadow_Woof
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First Off: Thank You for clearing it up.  

Second:  They over nerfed it.   It is not easy for BB to get shells on DD.   Getting mass quantity of shells causing on DD.  That is not easy unless REALLY close.  They made it 2 out of whack.  Went from one extreme to the other.

Yet a DD can Burn a BB down and a BB slaps it on the wrist with 1.2K per shell. So a DD with 20K life need 16 - 17 shells to kill it, from guns that shoot every 30s.  Seems like it went to other extreme.  

There is a bright side to this.  More I learn about this kind of stuff the easier it is not to spend any more money on this game.

 

Thank You again for the replies and teaching me a few things.

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20 hours ago, McHale772 said:

First Off: Thank You for clearing it up.  

Second:  They over nerfed it.   It is not easy for BB to get shells on DD.   Getting mass quantity of shells causing on DD.  That is not easy unless REALLY close.  They made it 2 out of whack.  Went from one extreme to the other.

Yet a DD can Burn a BB down and a BB slaps it on the wrist with 1.2K per shell. So a DD with 20K life need 16 - 17 shells to kill it, from guns that shoot every 30s.  Seems like it went to other extreme.  

There is a bright side to this.  More I learn about this kind of stuff the easier it is not to spend any more money on this game.

 

Thank You again for the replies and teaching me a few things.

 

You should hold fire against DDs until they're really close, especially with Italian battleships. You can easily get 10+ hits on destroyers.

 

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On 6/25/2021 at 4:51 AM, Compassghost said:

 With SAP, if it weren't reduced to 10%, 5 hits would be sufficient to kill almost every destroyer in the game, from any angle and any range.

5 hits from a 381mm SAP shell probably should kill almost every DD in the game. It's not exactly easy to hit a DD with BB shells, and those shells are huge so it makes sense to do huge damage when they do hit.

The fact that Italian BBs' SAP does far less damage to a DD than HE from other nations' BBs negates the entire point of SAP.

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16 hours ago, Original_Sean said:

As if DD stealth doesn't more than make up for the chance of getting killed by 4 hits. 

You mean the same stealth that gets countered by another DD it runs into,, or hydro/radar, or air spotting from CVs?

On 6/25/2021 at 5:49 PM, McHale772 said:

First Off: Thank You for clearing it up.  

Second:  They over nerfed it.   It is not easy for BB to get shells on DD.   Getting mass quantity of shells causing on DD.  That is not easy unless REALLY close.  They made it 2 out of whack.  Went from one extreme to the other.

Yet a DD can Burn a BB down and a BB slaps it on the wrist with 1.2K per shell. So a DD with 20K life need 16 - 17 shells to kill it, from guns that shoot every 30s.  Seems like it went to other extreme.  

There is a bright side to this.  More I learn about this kind of stuff the easier it is not to spend any more money on this game.

 

Thank You again for the replies and teaching me a few things.

I won't argue whether this is an over nerf, as they had performed this change especially in anticipation of large cruisers (Stalingrad, Alaska, etc.) being added into the game. I took the liberty of checking your stats and it would seem that you have just begun playing this game and are still learning (only 1k games and red in PR, which is completely fine), so it's perfectly understandable that you weren't around when they still had full BB AP pen on DDs. Which is to say, if a DD gets shot at by a BB, and if the angle happens to be right, which isn't hard to get, the DD can easily get dev struck from full hp to 0. For players who got more natural with aiming and shooting at DDs, this is very easy to do. Hence WG made the change. It's not because they chose to, but because they had to, otherwise Stalingrads and the like (12km radar by the way) would have annihilated any DD play at high tiers, which is already increasingly difficult.

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19 hours ago, Evrien said:

You mean the same stealth that gets countered by another DD it runs into,, or hydro/radar, or air spotting from CVs?

I won't argue whether this is an over nerf, as they had performed this change especially in anticipation of large cruisers (Stalingrad, Alaska, etc.) being added into the game. I took the liberty of checking your stats and it would seem that you have just begun playing this game and are still learning (only 1k games and red in PR, which is completely fine), so it's perfectly understandable that you weren't around when they still had full BB AP pen on DDs. Which is to say, if a DD gets shot at by a BB, and if the angle happens to be right, which isn't hard to get, the DD can easily get dev struck from full hp to 0. For players who got more natural with aiming and shooting at DDs, this is very easy to do. Hence WG made the change. It's not because they chose to, but because they had to, otherwise Stalingrads and the like (12km radar by the way) would have annihilated any DD play at high tiers, which is already increasingly difficult.

Yes the same stealth that lets a single dd burn down a BB while staying completely invisible to it. Never mind that if a DD has the LOS to aim at a BB, the BB should be able to see it once the guns start firing.

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11 hours ago, Original_Sean said:

Yes the same stealth that lets a single dd burn down a BB while staying completely invisible to it. Never mind that if a DD has the LOS to aim at a BB, the BB should be able to see it once the guns start firing. 

The DD doesn't have LOS on the BB when it's in smoke. Someone else has to spot it.

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8 hours ago, Compassghost said:

The DD doesn't have LOS on the BB when it's in smoke. Someone else has to spot it.

The inverse isn't true when guns fire. Naval gunnery very precisely pinpoints the location of the firing vessel IRL. I've even seen smokeless DDs that remained invisible while firing in game.

Edited by Original_Sean

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5 minutes ago, Original_Sean said:

The inverse isn't true when guns fire. Naval gunnery very precisely pinpoints the location of the firing vessel IRL. I've even seen smokeless DDs that remained invisible while firing in game.

The only way that happens is if they are behind some sort of cover, like an island, and can loft their shells to hit the BB. They still need a spotting assist to "see" the BB.

And please don't look at WoWs as a simulation/real life game. It is purely an arcade game with excellent ship models.

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7 minutes ago, Original_Sean said:

The inverse isn't true when guns fire. Naval gunnery very precisely pinpoints the location of the firing vessel IRL. I've even seen smokeless DDs that remained invisible while firing in game.

You can be hidden while firing if terrain or smoke is obscuring you. However, that does not stop shells from hitting you.

 

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On 6/30/2021 at 6:37 PM, Khafni said:

The only way that happens is if they are behind some sort of cover, like an island, and can loft their shells to hit the BB. 

Just not true. I've seen many times where a DD without smoke and nowhere near land lights up BBs. And they aren't sitting in someone else's smoke as the battle is moving rapidly.

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19 minutes ago, Original_Sean said:

Just not true. I've seen many times where a DD without smoke and nowhere near land lights up BBs. And they aren't sitting in someone else's smoke as the battle is moving rapidly.

When you see it again, post the replay.

Only time Ive seen anything like that, was cruisers using spotting planes, firing at their max concealment while kiting away.

edit: also note, at one time, some DDs could do what you were saying. It was called "stealth firing". But that was removed from the game like 3-4 years ago. 

Edited by Rollingonit
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On 6/25/2021 at 3:39 AM, McHale772 said:

How does a 380+ mm shell (over pen) put a 380+ mm hole clean through a ship and only do 1200 damage.  I mean that is one big hole that in most cases has to go through the hull below water line.  Either entering or exiting.

Interesting historical note here: a Fletcher-class DD (Johnston, iirc) took three battleship main gun shells (either 18.1 from Yamato or 14 inch from Kongo) and three 6 inch or 6.1 in shells (either from one of the Agano-class Light Cruisers Noshiro or Yahagi or from Yamato's secondaries, respectively). The ship was forced to disengage for several minutes for repairs, before reengaging the enemy, including slapping around 2 IJN Destroyers, one after enough, before the others decided to go to a less Johnston-filled area of the battle field.

 

The Fletcher-Class Destroyers Johnston, Hoel, and Heerman, along with the John C. Bulter-Class Destroyer Escort Samuel B. Roberts all sustained numerous large caliber hits and were all able to survive for as long as they did because they were misidentified as Heavy Cruisers and the IJN was using AP against them. The real damage came towards the end of the battle when the IJN started switching to HE.

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On 6/25/2021 at 1:51 AM, Compassghost said:

Battleships can only do up to 10% of the shell's max damage with AP and SAP rounds. So for a 12500 damage round, each round can only do 1250 damage. This is a design feature because in the past, destroyers could actually get 4-shot by battleships because full penetrations would do 1/4 of the DD's HP per shell per hit.

With SAP, if it weren't reduced to 10%, 5 hits would be sufficient to kill almost every destroyer in the game, from any angle and any range.

 

These changes were made in 0.7.11: https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/game-updates/update-0711-rule-britannia/#gameplay

 

image.thumb.png.87524092e58b8e4c3f9863e63323de24.png

 

With Italian battleships, the typical recommended strategy is to apply massive quantities of shells to a destroyer in a single salvo to kill them.

 

I remember the days Yamato players would just keep slinging 460mm AP at Destroyers.  When Battleship AP did Pen damage on Destroyers...

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Hey

Some moons ago I hit a DD at very close range with 8ea. HE shells from my Conqueror, setting 3 fires which did not kill the DD and he damaged controlled and then sank me with a full torp spread.  Tell me how that was even remotely fair.

 

Pete

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On 6/25/2021 at 5:49 AM, McHale772 said:

Second:  They over nerfed it.   It is not easy for BB to get shells on DD.   Getting mass quantity of shells causing on DD.  That is not easy unless REALLY close.  They made it 2 out of whack.  Went from one extreme to the other.

They had to nerf the old fullpen damage to something less. Maybe they went too far, but the way it used to be I would go DD hunting with Roma and ruin them pretty hard with the fast shells. Even just one hitting would shave a good amount of HP off a DD, if I got a good RNG roll they'd get wrecked.  Kronshtadt did the same from a cruiser slot. And those two have bad vertical dispersion, something like an Iowa would just devstrike DDs left and right, nevermind the more accurate supercruisers that showed up after Kron. That's the real reason Missouri used to make so much money for good players.

Edited by MnemonScarlet

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1 hour ago, MnemonScarlet said:

They had to nerf the old fullpen damage to something less. Maybe they went too far, but the way it used to be I would go DD hunting with Roma and ruin them pretty hard with the fast shells. Even just one hitting would shave a good amount of HP off a DD, if I got a good RNG roll they'd get wrecked.  Kronshtadt did the same from a cruiser slot. And those two have bad vertical dispersion, something like an Iowa would just devstrike DDs left and right, nevermind the more accurate supercruisers that showed up after Kron. That's the real reason Missouri used to make so much money for good players.

There is nothing fair when it comes to DD's anything that causes them damage gets nerfed look what they just did cv's and have done to CV since the rebuild all of it due to the weakest ship complaining about getting deleted

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The issue with CVs is the same that they had with Artillery in WoT: it's that it is essentially a class free from retribution until the battle is pretty much decided. Also, after the CV rework, they were a hard-counter to DDs, as-in there was virtually nothing a DD could do to save itself from a CV player, as a DD is reliant on stealth to do pretty much anything as the CV could easily chunk it for a third to half of it's health, with the DD having no counter play. This has gone on for a while. The rocket change has only just happened, and only effects one out of three weapons of the CV. Granted, I think the pendulum has swung too far the other direction and they have now nerfed rockets to near unplayability from what I have seen, but that is something to be balanced.

And I will stop there, as this is a topic about BBs and DDs, not CVs. If you want to continue, feel free to make a new thread or send me a PM.

Back at the topic at hand, it comes back to counterplay and risk reward. A single salvo of HE from a Battleship's main guns can wreck a DD, even if it survives, breaking multiple things on the ship and likely chunking the heck out of it's health. A BB's reload will beat a DD's Dam Con reload, so a second salvo is almost always fatal, and even if it isn't and the DD manages to shotgun the BB, the DD is likely effectively out of the match, and such a maneuver can usually only be performed through proper positioning on the DD's part and/or the BB being out of position. It's rock-paper-scissors. DDs counter BBs. BBs counter Cruisers. Cruisers counter DDs. There are exceptions, but that is the general ideal that WG has built the foundation of the game on.

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