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Snargfargle

So, how is everyone faring with the new rockets (show some data please)?

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image.png.3c755f40c7fab9e6c29b0f170f56056d.png

Here I got 1,113 damage per rocket hit (Tiny Tim) and hit with 27% of my fired ordinance.

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1 minute ago, Snargfargle said:

image.png.3c755f40c7fab9e6c29b0f170f56056d.png

Here I got 1,113 damage per rocket hit (Tiny Tim) and hit with 27% of my fired ordinance.

Kinda curious what your pre nerf average was? Those numbers seem pretty decent to me(depending on tier ofc)

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3 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

image.png.3c755f40c7fab9e6c29b0f170f56056d.png

Here I got 1,113 damage per rocket hit (Tiny Tim) and hit with 27% of my fired ordinance.

What were you shooting?  That should play a significant part in the results.

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6 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Kinda curious what your pre nerf average was? Those numbers seem pretty decent to me(depending on tier ofc)

Tier X, Midway. Actually I was sort of surprised myself at how little practice it took to get the hang of the new aiming system. As long as battleships and cruisers aren't actively trying to dodge me, I can usually hit them. DDs, on the other hand, I don't even try to hit unless they are on low health, stationary, or I must try to reset a cap.

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(show some data please)

Ok...

xXEGMa0.gif

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In this tier X Coop match, I used only rockets (Tiny Tims), firing at anything that I saw (even the bot CV).

image.png.0e532dbf6fa45b5cda07dba1fd1b95d0.png

Interestingly, my hit results (29%) were nearly the same as those from the Random match above, though my damage was lower at only 745 damage per rocket.

It's interesting that "CVs are too OP" when a single salvo from a BB can do twice the damage that multiple rocket attacks can do all game.

One salvo from a Montana vs a Worcester.

image.png.82acefe8a370e03053fcb6bf7998acf7.png

 

Edited by Snargfargle
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12 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

In this tier X Coop match, I used only rockets (Tiny Tims), firing at anything that I saw (even the bot CV).

image.png.0e532dbf6fa45b5cda07dba1fd1b95d0.png

Interestingly, my hit results (29%) were nearly the same as those from the Random match above, though my damage was lower at only 745 damage per rocket.

It's interesting that "CVs are too OP" when a single salvo from a BB can do twice the damage that multiple rocket attacks can do all game.

One salvo from a Montana vs a Worcester.

image.png.82acefe8a370e03053fcb6bf7998acf7.png

 

at what range? I can get those numbers accurately/reliably at about 7-10km in coop. Shooting at the same ships in random/grandbattles at ranges greater than 15km greatly reduces the number of hits, let alone the number of citadels..

Now: Im down for the idea of turning CVs into bb hunters. Make each class a direct counter to another.

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Not wasting my time with them unless I was using them as spotters :fish_sleep:

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They have little impact in the game. Once you see the machine guns land around or on you, flip rudder over and emergency reverse.

At that point you will escape the worst of it.

Try again when the dutch air strikes start nuking everyone.

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42 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

It's interesting that "CVs are too OP" when a single salvo from a BB can do twice the damage that multiple rocket attacks can do all game.

One salvo from a Montana vs a Worcester.

If only bb salvos could change angle,  change speed, turn, change targets mid flight, hit anywhere on the map regardless of range or island obstacles at any time of the game and spot for themselves.

But apart from the minimal things I mentioned above yes planes and bb guns are pretty much the same thing! These people complaining have no idea right!

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

It's interesting that "CVs are too OP" when a single salvo from a BB can do twice the damage that multiple rocket attacks can do all game.

Psychology. Whenever I play a DD and get chased by a cruiser with radar, I also feel they're OP, simply because your options to fight back are "limited".

I remain convinced that, right from day 1 of the Rework, Spotting was the only thing that really needed to change. And it still does today. Feels like every change they make only upsets CV players more without actually helping resolve the core problem of the class.

16 minutes ago, ITZ_ACE_BABY said:

If only bb salvos could change angle,  change speed, turn, change targets mid flight, hit anywhere on the map regardless of range or island obstacles at any time of the game and spot for themselves.

Aren't you also being a bit disingenuous there? Do battleship projectiles take a minute to arrive "anywhere", can a battleship run out of munitions, can battleship projectiles be shot down by AA -- to the point of nullifying entire salvos? A look at damage statistics for the various classes should suffice to find out who is dishing out the biggest hurt. 

Edited by Shiranui_chan
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51 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

 

It's interesting that "CVs are too OP" when a single salvo from a BB can do twice the damage that multiple rocket attacks can do all game.

 

That is because multiple effective counterplay options are available against BBs and other surface ships.

Counterplay however is extremely limited vs. CVs, any competent one can kill you or keep you permaspotted while completely out of harms way at the back of the map.

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43 minutes ago, LastRemnant said:

Not wasting my time with them unless I was using them as spotters :fish_sleep:

Effectively this.

Other than some limited attempts to figure out how the hell they’re supposed to work, when a Co-op game is effectively over for my CV, I’m ignoring them, beyond being cannon fodder while I wait for my torpedo bombers to regen.

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1 hour ago, Shiranui_chan said:

edit

Aren't you also being a bit disingenuous there? Do battleship projectiles take a minute to arrive "anywhere", can a battleship run out of munitions, can battleship projectiles be shot down by AA -- to the point of nullifying entire salvos? A look at damage statistics for the various classes should suffice to find out who is dishing out the biggest hurt. 

It wasn't disingenuous.  It was proving a point.

to answer your questions?

1. Do BB projectiles take a minute to arrive anywhere: No - the flight time of the shell is not instant.  The range is a factor and there is a chance for faster ships to dodge.  Correct aiming (lead) is essential but this can be ruined (or sometimes fixed) by RNG.  As I feel your point here is comparing BBs to planes, I will point out that it takes a lot longer for a BB to get across the map (when compared to anything) and the BB will be most likely be spotted as it travels and subject to attack while doing so.

2. Can a BB run out of Munitions:  Yes - No.   It depends.  A BB can have all/most AA removed.  I see this (unfair) comparison several times.  I understand players feel the need to protect a mechanic, but by the same argument shouldn't AA guns regenerate?  And yes.  BB main turrets can be completely destroyed.  

3. Can BB shells be shot down: No, I gather this is a rhetorical question, but I will answer it anyway.   While the shells can't be shot down, they can be dodged.  As most BBs are slow, faster ships have the option to be somewhere else.  This option is not a viable option when facing planes, as planes due to their high speed can easily outpace any ship.  Due to drop distances and speed of ordnance, in most cases, the aiming reticle of planes can be placed directly onto a ship and still get max effect.  Apart from close brawls (and beachings), no other ship has the luxury to directly place the target cross on another ship and still expect to do damage.

 

Edited by Laser_Beam
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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Here I got 1,113 damage per rocket hit (Tiny Tim) and hit with 27% of my fired ordinance.

The question is what are we looking for in terms of data? Damage done, hit percentage, damage per rocket, etc? Is it limited to larger rockets (that didn't need this nerf) or would you like HVAR/FFAR/RP-3 data as well (that is relatively unchanged post nerf). Even then we have to account for people still adjusting to the new mechanic - other than the many who have, predictably, already given up on it, as well as other variables such as MM tier and ships targeted as that can create variances depending on the particular data attempted to be acquired - such as say hit % someone attacking battleships will have a higher one, but it could also skew average damage up or down depending how could there aim is while someone attacking DD's could have lower % and damage but because they're nuking DD's. 

Case in point - 

Spoiler

shot-21_06.24_19_11.29-0269.thumb.jpg.6e21a0989eaa68a8a3f9d34ff0fe736a.jpg

That Z-46 was actually an example of a good DD player throughout the match in terms of trying to stay just close enough to AA ships like the Smolensk to give me issues trying to target him - something way more DD players needed to do prior to the rocket changes. All 14 rocket hits are on him, out of 128 fired, let's be generous and round it up to 11% hit rate. But several of my shots were me firing in to smoke guessing where he was based on AA and/or Gunfire - which drove my accuracy down, my accuracy when he was in a visible scenario - such as AA outside smoke or other spotting, is likely higher than that 11%, and 6/14 of those hits were in a single pass out of the 24 rockets fired in it (25%). Average damage per rocket is 589.28 against a technical max damage of 726. Odds are I had a 0 hit or hit areas with damage saturation. All total 8250/~19900 HP as I did not see if he had any of the skills and all to improve his, likely close to 3k in one attack based on the averages, by a player at bottom tier, who is maybe average, and has not played in a week or two and has not exactly adjusted to the new system. 

As a comparison - 

Spoiler

shot-20_12.03_20_50.54-0807.thumb.jpg.d73ae4fabbba6cdea00a0ed1c9e16ad3.jpg

shot-20_12.03_21_30.39-0057.thumb.jpg.aa9a84a08b7528c936fc1d525fe17637.jpg

Those are back to back matches with Midway last December, one where I was clearly targeting DD's coming in at 9.2% accuracy, 488 average damage, and the other 27.2% averaging 405% - but as can be clearly seen I was targeting larger, better protected ships.

Obviously a very small sample size - but effectively - my ability to target a DD has not really changed at all. I'm not getting the same massive insta chunks I was before as often - keyword is as often and a large percentage of that is my need to adjust to the delay still and getting better at predicting enemy movements when I attack. The bigger issue for the Z-46, which is a long standing issue with most of the DD's other than some of the newer high RoF ones is that I kept him lit when he was outside smoke for people to fire on him, and he had insufficient AA to really drive me off unlike IJN gunboats or the EU DD's. 

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16 minutes ago, Laser_Beam said:

Due to drop distances and speed of ordnance, in most cases, the aiming reticle of planes can be placed directly onto a ship and still get max effect.

That was untrue even before the rocket changes. There was about 1-2 seconds from the time a rocket launched, to the time in which it impacted the ship, it was a very slight lead, but you still needed one for max effect unless the ship was stopped. Torpedo planes need a lead as well unless again, the ship has stopped moving taking in to account everything else a DD would have to at similar ranges. Bombs as well also actually require a lead time as hitting the wrong area can just like any other ship result in no damage due to lack of pen, or overpen for those using AP bombs, and depending on bomb and release height takes x seconds to land that has to be accounted for, one of the more annoying ones being UK level bombers with how long their bomb fall is at a fixed height. Unless again, just like the BB - the ship is beached or stopped.

 

Then again the mistake EVERYONE keeps making is thinking about the planes as ordnance. They are not ordnance. They are ship turrets. Dive bombers are the main battery, Torpedo bombers torpedo tubes, Rockets are (generally) secondary guns. Knocking out a group of DB's is more equal to knocking out the main battery of, depending on bomb size, a Battleship or cruiser. And much like those ship main batteries - they can, in fact, now be fixed over time. While yes, on occasion, that main battery can be permanently knocked out - while on the most technical of levels this can not happen to a CV, it does on a practical level as a group of 3 planes against say Montana is unlikely to get through the AA barrier in most cases. But then again all ships have an automated system that damages/destroys CV turrets while BB's only have to worry if a shell lands and pens one. CV trades the safety of the hull for way more fragile turrets - even if there are some serious balance issues in need of address regarding how effective those anti-CV turret systems are. 

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I am not faring with rockets. I have played exactly one game over the past week - in a Lepanto.

Every release comes with a Zeppelin nerf, and it’s not as though my other favorites are doing much better these days (see: secondary BBs).

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43 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

That was untrue even before the rocket changes. There was about 1-2 seconds from the time a rocket launched, to the time in which it impacted the ship, it was a very slight lead, but you still needed one for max effect unless the ship was stopped. Torpedo planes need a lead as well unless again, the ship has stopped moving taking in to account everything else a DD would have to at similar ranges. Bombs as well also actually require a lead time as hitting the wrong area can just like any other ship result in no damage due to lack of pen, or overpen for those using AP bombs, and depending on bomb and release height takes x seconds to land that has to be accounted for, one of the more annoying ones being UK level bombers with how long their bomb fall is at a fixed height. Unless again, just like the BB - the ship is beached or stopped.

 

Then again the mistake EVERYONE keeps making is thinking about the planes as ordnance. They are not ordnance. They are ship turrets. Dive bombers are the main battery, Torpedo bombers torpedo tubes, Rockets are (generally) secondary guns. Knocking out a group of DB's is more equal to knocking out the main battery of, depending on bomb size, a Battleship or cruiser. And much like those ship main batteries - they can, in fact, now be fixed over time. While yes, on occasion, that main battery can be permanently knocked out - while on the most technical of levels this can not happen to a CV, it does on a practical level as a group of 3 planes against say Montana is unlikely to get through the AA barrier in most cases. But then again all ships have an automated system that damages/destroys CV turrets while BB's only have to worry if a shell lands and pens one. CV trades the safety of the hull for way more fragile turrets - even if there are some serious balance issues in need of address regarding how effective those anti-CV turret systems are. 

image.png.f3ea5c5d341aad94785cd311aff57f1b.png

Thank You Ajax for the stream allowing for this capture.  

 

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1 hour ago, Laser_Beam said:

It wasn't disingenuous.  It was proving a point.

to answer your questions?

1. Do BB projectiles take a minute to arrive anywhere: No - the flight time of the shell is not instant.  The range is a factor and there is a chance for faster ships to dodge.  Correct aiming (lead) is essential but this can be ruined (or sometimes fixed) by RNG.  As I feel your point here is comparing BBs to planes, I will point out that it takes a lot longer for a BB to get across the map (when compared to anything) and the BB will be most likely be spotted as it travels and subject to attack while doing so.

2. Can a BB run out of Munitions:  Yes - No.   It depends.  A BB can have all/most AA removed.  I see this (unfair) comparison several times.  I understand players feel the need to protect a mechanic, but by the same argument shouldn't AA guns regenerate?

3. Can BB shells be shot down: No, I gather this is a rhetorical question, but I will answer it anyway.   While the shells can't be shot down, they can be dodged.  As most BBs are slow, faster ships have the option to be somewhere else.  This option is not a viable option when facing planes, as planes due to their high speed can easily outpace any ship.  Due to drop distances and speed of ordnance, in most cases, the aiming reticle of planes can be placed directly onto a ship and still get max effect.  Apart from close brawls (and beachings), no other ship has the luxury to directly place the target cross on another ship and still expect to do damage.

 

I think you're missing it. I was not the one who started comparing CVs to BBs, but your responding list of differences was entirely one-sided, likely to evoke the impression that battleships are somehow trickier to play or less efficient. You also ignore or dismiss the similarities that do exist:

When you mention the chance to dodge projectiles, the same is true for airplane ordnance. CV players also have to lead, at least two out of three munition types also involve RNG. Slow battleships may have a much harder time evading than smaller types of vessels, to put it mildly, but not just ignoring the attack still means you can mitigate at least part of the full potential, depending on Tier and CV skill even everything, thanks to the combination of lower ordnance number and hilarious RNG. Consider also that battleships are not able to dodge shells from other surface ships either; why should it be different with aerial munitions? They are meant to survive thanks to their massive health pools, thick armor, torpedo belts, and clever positioning.

And whilst it is true that a BB takes (a lot) longer to get across the map, once it arrives it actually stays there and can continue to attack, rather than having to travel the same distance again, and again, and again if it wishes to continue participating in the battle. I also submit that a battleship is a lot harder to destroy than a wing of planes. Plane respawn speed (or whether they should respawn instead of having a fixed number to begin with, like before the Rework) is debatable, but I hope you agree that losing a flight of planes should not end the game for the carrier.

Your response to the second point is again evasive. Battleships do not attack with their AA guns, they attack with their main batteries, and disabling them even temporarily is the exception rather than the rule (not to mention that they can be instantly restored by use of Repair Party). When you mention AA guns, you of course refer exclusively to a ship's ability to defend itself against aerial attack; the "shooting down munitions" aspect that I raised in point 3. But for the record: yes, I think AA guns should regenerate, too -- considering their interaction with airplanes, it is strange that one does respawn and the other does not. I can't say it ever really bothered me, but then again I am playing mainly IJN, which means that (with few exceptions) I would probably not notice the difference of a few 20mm's less anyways, as I'd rely on other ships for protection in either case.

odtFlc4.png

For your third response, the modus operandi I mentioned above actually ties in neatly here. There's no need to be somewhere else when you can clump up and share AA bubbles. Those affected are of course the lone wolves who prefer sailing off alone rather than sticking with the team, but this comes back to a refusal to acknowledge that the presence of airplanes on the map should not be ignored, but acknowledged and played against just like you would react to a DD's triangle showing up on the minimap.

As for placing the reticle directly on a ship, this feels like a misrepresentation, at least from my modest experience with playing carriers. This being said, CVs are the line I am least advanced in, so whilst my impressions are based on being targeted by T10 CVs, I have only played them up to T6 myself so far. Perhaps it really does get so much easier at T10? I can only say it did not change my perception when being on the receiving end. This being said, there is one other aspect you are missing here: positioning and approach. Battleship players need only click, and the shells fly off. Carrier players will have to maneuver their planes to make sure their attack lines up with the optimal vector, during which time the target vessel will continue to move, and will continue to fire its AA guns. And after all that, if your planes make it through, it's still a roll of the dice with two out of three attack types. Turns out, even AP bombs can ricochet.

Edited by Shiranui_chan
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4 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

image.png.3c755f40c7fab9e6c29b0f170f56056d.png

Here I got 1,113 damage per rocket hit (Tiny Tim) and hit with 27% of my fired ordinance.

Been playing haku, only get like 1k damage per attack with rockets, 3k+ if the enemy doesn't attempt to dodge.

I see little reason to use rockets unless the target is low health or I need to quickly cycle a squadron.

Been having a lot more success using torpedo bombers against DD's rather than these 4 second delay rockets...

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I refuse to even bother.

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1 hour ago, Laser_Beam said:

image.png.f3ea5c5d341aad94785cd311aff57f1b.png

Thank You Ajax for the stream allowing for this capture.  

Yeah great - except that's not where the bombs are going to land. If they hit, the fall time from where they are is going to be landing them at the stern. To say nothing of a sub 30 knot BB and no info to how many planes it may or may not have taken out on the way. Try the same thing against a destroyer or some of the cruisers and see how well it works, and I don't mean - 'go find some player that plays CV's and has a stream' - go do it yourself against mid-high tier DD's and cruisers and not tier 4 target practice ships. And if that thing obscured by the engine boost icon is a turret, and the bombs are actually on target - he is not going to get 'maximum effect' when it hits that and shatters, as opposed to releasing closer to the bow, so that when the bombs fall they hit the center of the ship and the easy to pen superstructure. Then again, if a BB got at closer range, and depending on the exact form it's reticle would take at long range because yes - BB's and all have the same thing there's is just hidden, it'd be the exact same deal - other than those ships have options depending on what they are fighting to adjust the angle of their ship to reduce the chances of their turrets being taken out, are way more accurate, and oh, right, do way more damage as they can swap ordnance types. 

'Most cases' of a CV's planes being able to be on the ship and hit it - are BB's. And even then - they still have to actually aim, to get maximum effect, and try not to hit either parts of the deck with enough armour to stop the rockets/bombs they are firing, or the turrets, or the other random armoured spots they have at times. You want to hit a DD or a cruiser that isn't a down graded BB - your usually aiming in front of it with rockets and bombs, and torpedoes you have to lead still - same as anyone else. 

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4 hours ago, xHeavy said:

Once you see the machine guns land around or on you, flip rudder over and emergency reverse.

Not everyone is Luke Hobbs, and not every ship has diesel-electric engines.

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5 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

In this tier X Coop match, I used only rockets (Tiny Tims), firing at anything that I saw (even the bot CV).

image.png.0e532dbf6fa45b5cda07dba1fd1b95d0.png

Interestingly, my hit results (29%) were nearly the same as those from the Random match above, though my damage was lower at only 745 damage per rocket.

It's interesting that "CVs are too OP" when a single salvo from a BB can do twice the damage that multiple rocket attacks can do all game.

One salvo from a Montana vs a Worcester.

image.png.82acefe8a370e03053fcb6bf7998acf7.png

 

I see you're using logic to make an argument, that's a paddlin.

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